Thread: What IS Egyptian Dance?

Pardon my over-emotional post here, but my kettle is beginning to boil over and I need to talk to someone who understands.

Have any of you ever felt that nobody around you "gets" Oriental dance?

What IS Oriental dance without emotion? What are a string of well-executed movements without the passion of Oriental dance?

Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?

Have you ever felt very alone in that even those closest to you don't "get it"?

How do you deal with educating the public when it's poor taste to talk badly about other dancers? Do you bother dealing with it? Do people even care?

Thank you for letting me rant.

I feel your pain.

Uh-huh

Sedonia

Why don't you tell us a little about yourself? Some people will find it disconcerting to read a rant rather than an introduction as your first post.

Sedonia

Do you have any examples of what Egyptian dancing really is? Please educate me. Can you provide video examples because I don't see many Egyptian dancers on youtube with feeling, just stumbling around like their drunk or shaking their hips around or trying to get oh's and ah's from their audience with costumes, gimics and props. I've only seen one or two and they are not Egyptian dancers but to me dance Egyptian style.

Well, I don't think that nobody around me gets it. I've seen alot of people who dance beautiful oriental style, so some people obviously DO get it.

That said, I also know people (around me ) who make a big fuss about their "pure and authentic" Egyptian style and yet there's nothing Egyptian about it. It's very AmCab chock full of chest pops, Isis wings and double veil. It used to annoy the heck out of me when this person's students would emphatically declare that what they were learning was "Egyptian" because their teacher learned it in Egypt (on one of her TWO, 15 day trips to Cairo) but now I simply don't care. I've found that many people resent being corrected and they begin to view you as just jealous or hateful. If they want to think that what they're learning and performing is pure Egyptian style....fine with me, let 'em plop that sword on their head. ..l;,


Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by theheartofdance

Pardon my over-emotional post here, but my kettle is beginning to boil over and I need to talk to someone who understands.

Have any of you ever felt that nobody around you "gets" Oriental dance?

What IS Oriental dance without emotion? What are a string of well-executed movements without the passion of Oriental dance?

Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?

Have you ever felt very alone in that even those closest to you don't "get it"?

How do you deal with educating the public when it's poor taste to talk badly about other dancers? Do you bother dealing with it? Do people even care?

Thank you for letting me rant.

Originally Posted by theheartofdance

How do you deal with educating the public when it's poor taste to talk badly about other dancers? Do you bother dealing with it? Do people even care?

I think the only thing you can do is to keep doing what you're doing; be an example. Most of the time, it doesn't do any good to go to war with dancers who are blatantly misinforming students/GP/anybody who will listen and/or pay them or who are simply ill-informed themselves. There's just too many of these dancers. You must just keep slogging away, keep doing what you're doing, and hope that the light bulb comes on for students and, perhaps, your GP audience members.

Belieeeeve me, like Sedonia said, I feel your pain!

Nisaa

If you had to define "egyptian dance" and "oriental" would there be a difference? I'm just curious as to what make egyptian dance "egytian"...if the person is egyptian and they are dancing is it egyptian? What about shows like Oriental Star in turkey? Are they dancing egyptian (even though they do what the call oriental roman?). I'm asking because I was under the impression that oriental reffered to "east" and not specifically egypt. I always concerned Rak Sharqi with egypt, or Kaliigi (forgive my spelling) or Saiidi.... I was unaware that oriental=egypt. I myself sometimes refer to myself as a American Oriental dancer- so I'm probobly one of the people your pissed at!

Originally Posted by jasani

Do you have any examples of what Egyptian dancing really is? Please educate me. Can you provide video examples because I don't see many Egyptian dancers on youtube with feeling, just stumbling around like their drunk or shaking their hips around or trying to get oh's and ah's from their audience with costumes, gimics and props. I've only seen one or two and they are not Egyptian dancers but to me dance Egyptian style.

Jasani, well, there's a lot of crap on youtube in ALL dance styles. Which is why I rarely use it myself. I know it has some really great clips, but I don't have the patience to dig through the crap in search of them.

Here's one youtube clip that Kadife posted to the thread "Now that's what I call belly dance" that I think is a nice example of Egyptian dance done well: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qwiorV-a6I]YouTube - Eygptian bellydancers[/ame] . I'll leave it to folks who spend more time on youtube than I do to post others.

Originally Posted by midnight_star56

If you had to define "egyptian dance" and "oriental" would there be a difference? I'm just curious as to what make egyptian dance "egytian"...if the person is egyptian and they are dancing is it egyptian? What about shows like Oriental Star in turkey? Are they dancing egyptian (even though they do what the call oriental roman?). I'm asking because I was under the impression that oriental reffered to "east" and not specifically egypt. I always concerned Rak Sharqi with egypt, or Kaliigi (forgive my spelling) or Saiidi.... I was unaware that oriental=egypt. I myself sometimes refer to myself as a American Oriental dancer- so I'm probobly one of the people your pissed at!

Egyptian Dance encompasses many different styles (beledi, saidi, zar, tannoura, melaya, etc) but Oriental is a term that can be used in different dance forms. ie. There is Egyptian Oriental, Lebanese Oriental and Turkish Oriental. (Probably many other than evade me at the moment or that I am unaware of). My post is more regarding Egyptian dance as a whole.

Please understand that I'm not passing judgment on anyone who chooses to dance other styles. We all have our preferences and there's some really cool stuff out there. My problem is with incorrect marketing, and the fact that people insist on marketing themselves as Egyptian dancers, when that is not what they are doing.

Let's face it - all the fancy props used in American style belly dance are crowd pleasers. It's what the general public likes most, and I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with, is people pulling out wings, swords or dancing to Turkish music and pegging it to be Egyptian dance at Multicultural events et al. (or teaching it as such).

Originally Posted by midnight_star56

If you had to define "egyptian dance" and "oriental" would there be a difference? I'm just curious as to what make egyptian dance "egytian"...if the person is egyptian and they are dancing is it egyptian? What about shows like Oriental Star in turkey? Are they dancing egyptian (even though they do what the call oriental roman?). I'm asking because I was under the impression that oriental reffered to "east" and not specifically egypt. I always concerned Rak Sharqi with egypt, or Kaliigi (forgive my spelling) or Saiidi.... I was unaware that oriental=egypt. I myself sometimes refer to myself as a American Oriental dancer- so I'm probobly one of the people your pissed at!

You have most of that right on :)

Terminology-wise: Khaligi is from the Gulf/Saudi type region. Saiidi is upper Egypt. Ghawazee is Egypt. Raqs Sharqi is generally used to mean Egyptian style by a lot of people, but it translates as Dance of the East and has also been used to refer to the stage form of this dance in numerous Middle Eastern/North African countries. Oriental Tansi also translates to Dances of the East, so those are generally interchangeable.

Having seen your dance style, I would agree that American Oriental style is fine for you. You incorporate parts from Egyptian, Turkish, Old School AmCab and Tribal in your dancing, so I think it matches pretty well.

I care and I feel what you are saying...

I believe that when I perform (or try to perform) the Egyptian style, I won't mix in balancing a sword or candles for example. I'll do a saidi piece, etc. I don't why an Am Cab dancer would balance a cane on her/his head during a drum solo. To me that's not a part of an American Cabaret 5-part routine, that's what I was taught. That's me. If someone wants to do that, that's their choice. My friends do fusion and combine Am Cab with a little Egyptian style. I don't go around like a belly dance police person saying 'You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that'. And if I did, I'd be considered a snob.

What I do, do is let the Egyptian style show in my performance. I work my butt off stressing about my music, my performance and am I doing this style justice. I want the Egyptians to say, 'She's got it.' Let it show through your performance because you will stand out!!!

What I also do is go to see very good dancers in this style so they can inspire me. That's what my teacher has told me and that's what I do. For example, Nourhan Sharif only does the Egyptian style and stays within that dance form. She is hands down a dancer's dancer. If you ever have the opportunity to take a workshop with her, see her perform or go to New York for a class - DO SO!!! She considers herself a student and is still learning.

I'll tell you about the time that I was about to give up this dance after watching a few performances, if you'd like.

Anyways...the Egyptian style is a challenging style and I LOVE IT!!! My teacher is my biggest influence with the Egyptian style and I've taken workshops with people who are stick within this dance form.

I'm sorry if this turned into a rant. I'm kinda passionate about dance ..g.:

I do understand what you're saying.

Originally Posted by theheartofdance

Pardon my over-emotional post here, but my kettle is beginning to boil over and I need to talk to someone who understands.

Have any of you ever felt that nobody around you "gets" Oriental dance?

What IS Oriental dance without emotion? What are a string of well-executed movements without the passion of Oriental dance?

Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?

Have you ever felt very alone in that even those closest to you don't "get it"?

How do you deal with educating the public when it's poor taste to talk badly about other dancers? Do you bother dealing with it? Do people even care?

Thank you for letting me rant.

[QUOTE=theheartofdance;79390]Egyptian Dance encompasses many different styles (beledi, saidi, khaliji, zar, tannoura, melaya, etc) but Oriental is a term that can be used in different dance forms. ie. There is Egyptian Oriental, Lebanese Oriental and Turkish Oriental. (Probably many other than evade me at the moment or that I am unaware of).QUOTE]

OK now you've lost me a bit...khaliji is khaliji, it is NOT Egyptian dance. Maybe you mean "Middle Eastern dance", not Egyptian dance?

I agree that Oriental encompasses a few styles...it is generally necessary to qualify WHICH Oriental.

[quote=nisaasaintlouis;79397]

Originally Posted by theheartofdance

Egyptian Dance encompasses many different styles (beledi, saidi, khaliji, zar, tannoura, melaya, etc) but Oriental is a term that can be used in different dance forms. ie. There is Egyptian Oriental, Lebanese Oriental and Turkish Oriental. (Probably many other than evade me at the moment or that I am unaware of).QUOTE]

OK now you've lost me a bit...khaliji is khaliji, it is NOT Egyptian dance. Maybe you mean "Middle Eastern dance", not Egyptian dance?

I agree that Oriental encompasses a few styles...it is generally necessary to qualify WHICH Oriental.

Ha! You caught that before I removed it. You're quick on the ball! .p::

Yes, I realize Khaliji is from the Kuwait/Saudi region, but I was trying to keep this post to Egyptian and not Middle Eastern, thus the adjustment.

[quote=nisaasaintlouis;79397]

Originally Posted by theheartofdance

Egyptian Dance encompasses many different styles (beledi, saidi, khaliji, zar, tannoura, melaya, etc) but Oriental is a term that can be used in different dance forms. ie. There is Egyptian Oriental, Lebanese Oriental and Turkish Oriental. (Probably many other than evade me at the moment or that I am unaware of).QUOTE]

OK now you've lost me a bit...khaliji is khaliji, it is NOT Egyptian dance. Maybe you mean "Middle Eastern dance", not Egyptian dance?

I agree that Oriental encompasses a few styles...it is generally necessary to qualify WHICH Oriental.

Egyptian dancers may include a khaliji section in their cabaret routines these days as they do saidi. That's probably why it's thought of as authentic to them as opposed to being a Gulf dance. I'd always assumed they did so not just 'cos they liked the variety but to please the Gulf Arabs who might be in the audience.
Dance evolves and we may look back to those "Golden" years but Egyptian Egyptian dancers will have moved on and absorbed influences from all over including possibly the US and some of them go in for the props. I know Asmahan isn't originally from Egypt but she's working her big showy acts to appreciative audiences over there.
I would still define the difference between a foreigner, such as an American, doing Egyptian style as opposed to a "native" dancer in that we get the show- girl touch applied to many routines and and it's all about showing the effort made..showing being the word whereas the Egyptians give of their dance, apparently so effortlessly.
However well we may learn from Egyptians their style, we still dance with an accent because of our different cultural background. Some Western dancers do manage to grasp a lot of what it's all about, usually by studying and working in Cairo for longish spells .
I tell my students, they are learning Egyptian style belly dance because that's what I have been taught, I don't try to fool them for one minute that we will all get on a dance floor and be indistingishable from the real thing
The nearest I am gonna get is to be told by an Egyptian lady I met on holiday on a Nile Cruise..."You do our dance well"..g.:

Have any of you ever felt that nobody around you "gets" Oriental dance?

Yeppers. Especially as regards the general public.

Around here, a "bellydancer" is supposed to wear a 2-piece costume, play finger cymbals, do floor work, and wear harem pants while basically standing in a 3-foot circle. That's what they've seen, and what they expect.

Along comes the Egyptian style, (in my case heavily influenced by Raqia Hassan and Dina) and they don't know what to make of it. Even my own MOTHER said, "well that's not really bellydance is it?" after seeing one of my performances. Sigh.

What IS Oriental dance without emotion? What are a string of well-executed movements without the passion of Oriental dance?

In general, there are 2 schools of thought on what defines Belly Dance, Oriental Dance, whatever you want to call it:

1. It's a dance style with a specific movement vocabulary involving hip and torso articulation.

2. It's a dance based around the music, with a rather limited movement vocabulary, and with the movements being secondary to how they're used to interpret the music.

People who represent school of thought #1 can be overheard saying:
"My dance consisted of hip circles, figure 8s, chest locks, shoulder shimmies, and hip drops. Therefore it is belly dance."

People who represent school of thought #2 can be overheard saying:
"It's not about the movements, it's about the emotional response to the music."

Have you ever felt very alone in that even those closest to you don't "get it"?

At first, but you learn to get over it (I don't mean that in a harsh nasty way or anything.) Be true to yourself. If that's what calls you and that's where your heart is, then dance it. Educating the public, getting people to accept you -- it all takes time, and energy. But seriously, get over feeling alone, cause you're not :) I think a lot of us have been there -- in one way or another. Goth dancers being shunned at events, cabaret and tribal gals duking it out, Turkish style dancers STILL being treated like some kind of bellydance step child. We've all experienced SOME sort of "isolation" at times. To survive it, you just have to grow a tougher shell and be true to your own heart :)

Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?

I think a lot of it is just insufficient information, or an insufficient understanding of Egyptian style -- or they define Egyptian style a different way. I mean, we've all been running around like Justice Potter for 10 years saying, we can't define Egyptian style, but we know it when we see it. It's extremely tough to put into words what makes Randa different from Jillina.

And when we DO try to put it into words, we almost always come back to either talking about specific movements (ie "Egyptian dancers don't do chest locks") or talking AROUND the subject by saying something like "it's the essence, the feeling, that's different." <---- True, but how useful is that to a new student??

I heard Ansuya described as an Egyptian style dancer recently. My original thought was "Huh???" because my understanding of Egyptian style would just certainly not include Ansuya in its representative number!

How do you deal with educating the public when it's poor taste to talk badly about other dancers? Do you bother dealing with it? Do people even care?

Bad dancing -- I don't bother with. I've done my share :) The audience, even in these cornfields, can tell the diff between good dancing and bad dancing, so I don't even address that. BUT, I get cheesed off over the following:

1. I was supposed to teach a belly dance class for kids in our "Projects" low-income housing area, and I had a great syllabus talking about self-esteem and individual beauty, body positiveness, and showing moves from Africa and how Egypt is the mother of beautiful dance and music, etc. I think it will be a good influence on these kids

except

I get a call from the organizer and apparently some of the council members saw some "bellydancing" and now they don't think it would be appropriate to teach to these girls. I know who and what they saw and it offends me to NO END that this performer advertises her stuff as "authentic Middle Eastern bellydance" because it's really this \__/ close to pole-dancing.

2. Same thing goes for another fitness class we were trying to do for developmentally disabled adults -- teaching bellydance moves to help them find a fitness routine that's fun and that they would stick with. Director decides it's a little too risque, and that the people might "misinterpret the movements." I'm deferring to their good judgement, since I don't work around DD adults, but I KNOW they're basing a lot of their decision on seeing the other performer.

The only thing I can do is preface all our brochures and fliers with "Our shows are 100& family-friendly" and mention how we fly around the country to study with instructors in the various authentic dance forms. "Authentic" is a buzz word and can often mean nothing, but try getting Arts Council approval for anything NOT authentic around here and its gets killed straightaway.

Hang in there. There's room in the world for all styles, and I don't think we'll ever be able to convince some people to accurately market their work, so try not to sweat it. Do what YOU love, be true to what YOU love and who YOU are, cause in the end, that's all you CAN do :)

Originally Posted by aziyade

Bad dancing -- I don't bother with. I've done my share :) The audience, even in these cornfields, can tell the diff between good dancing and bad dancing, so I don't even address that. BUT, I get cheesed off over the following:

1. I was supposed to teach a belly dance class for kids in our "Projects" low-income housing area, and I had a great syllabus talking about self-esteem and individual beauty, body positiveness, and showing moves from Africa and how Egypt is the mother of beautiful dance and music, etc. I think it will be a good influence on these kids

except

I get a call from the organizer and apparently some of the council members saw some "bellydancing" and now they don't think it would be appropriate to teach to these girls. I know who and what they saw and it offends me to NO END that this performer advertises her stuff as "authentic Middle Eastern bellydance" because it's really this __/ close to pole-dancing.

That's a shame.

It sounds like it would have been a wonderful program. Where else would those kids get that kind of exposure to that culture, etc.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Originally Posted by aziyade

2. Same thing goes for another fitness class we were trying to do for developmentally disabled adults -- teaching bellydance moves to help them find a fitness routine that's fun and that they would stick with. Director decides it's a little too risque, and that the people might "misinterpret the movements." I'm deferring to their good judgement, since I don't work around DD adults, but I KNOW they're basing a lot of their decision on seeing the other performer.

I'm not set out to flame anyone on this thread, I'm just trying to understand statements made about fusion, I also acknowledge that some dancers just dance on top of the music and don't put alot of "feeling" into what they do, but as Americans I think we are more into technique and later comes the feeling.

This is an interesting statement, "Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?" because I've watched some of the Egyptian dance star movies from the 40's and it looks like a fusion of ballet moves and a lot of basic hip movements to me. I've read articles that have stated Egyptian dance has changed due to what Hollywood (and American's) dictates ever since the 30s. I'll try to dig up the article in which an Egyptian star dancer says American's dance Egyptian dance better than Egyptians. So with all this "fusion" in Oriental Dance, what does that say about Egyptian dance?

I think (and honestly believe) that when we talk about how the "dance" in Egypt changed in the Casino Opera era, what we're REALLY talking about is how the PRESENTATION of the dance changed.

Sure, the Casino Opera era added more traveling movements, some fabric manipulation (proto-veil) and a FEW ballet or rather ballroom inspired steps, like the modified Arabesque and multiple turns. But the overall dance itself I would argue didn't change that much, and really can't be considered a "fusion." Mohammed Abdel Wahab's music was INFLUENCED by Western musical forms, and the stage dynamics in the movies were INFLUENCED by Western musical theatre and films, but it's not a real FUSION of two disparate things.

Now Mahmoud Reda's work I would DEFINITELY say is ballet/ballroom influenced and FUSED. If you look at the Reda movies and compare them to the old b&w movies of the "stars of Egypt" so-to-speak, the dancing is a LOT different, and we've talked a lot about why, and how Reda had to learn to present the indigenous dance in such a way that people would want to pay money to see it.

I THINK the "fusion" the OP was talking about was more of the sort of new "genre" of dance that some call Tribal Fusion, and others just call Fusion Bellydance. Think Indigo-inspired dancing, which looks nothing like Am Cab.

Mostly what people have complained about is dancers (or more appropriately -- teachers!) mislabeling what they do. "Egyptian Style" is hot. If you can advertise that you teach "Egyptian Style" you might draw more students. Telling people you teach "authentic" anything is a draw.

Originally Posted by jasani

This is an interesting statement, "Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?"

I think 99% of the people here would agree that there is a unique "Egyptian Style" of dance, that exists separate from, say "Turkish Style." So there IS a difference, and I think students need to know this (and at some point will WANT to know this.) People who advertise that they teach Egyptian style and really DON'T teach it are NOT doing the student community any favors.

If I study with an alleged "Turkish style" instructor, and what she's really teaching me is ATS done to Turkish music -- what have I learned?

It's not that Egyptian style is like, better, or anything. But it's what it is. Am Cab is what it is. ATS is what it is. If I signed up for a ballet class, I'd expect ballet, not tap or tumbling. But I know what ballet looks like. ;) A lot of students and the GP don't really know what Egyptian bellydance looks like, in comparison to Tribal or Am Cab. That's he sticky point for a lot of people. If the GP knew exactly what all the styles looked like, and could easily identify between them, people wouldn't get as annoyed at mislabeled product.

I had a long reply then it got eaten. Anyway, I think there is a lack of labels as well, and it causes naming problems. I don't consider myself AmCab, because I don't use finger cymbals and I don't use a five part routine. I'm also not straight up Egyptian because some of my movements are more dramatic, I do candle tray, and veil. I also do more fusiony hands, some lotus hands and flamenco rolls. I'm definately not fusion like Rachel Brice, but I'm not pure Egyptian either. What style is this called? Just American Bellydance? There is no real title for those that are a bit outside of the mold on both accounts, and yet not really off in outer space either.

If the ESSENCE of what you're doing is Middle Eastern or "Oriental" then someone suggested to me to call it American Oriental Dance. I like that. Sounds right classy!

I'm a melange too. I like the idea of BEING a melange, because even if I did straight-up Egyptian style 6 days a week, I'd like the opportunity to do Turkish on Sunday without anybody raising their eyebrows.

Taletha does wonderful Egyptian -- AND GOTH! Not usually in the same show, though :) And she doesn't fuse them. Just some peformances are Egyptian and some are Goth. I would hate to think we had to specialize 100% in any one style. I'd hate to have to choose between Om Kalsoum and my flaming sword, ya know? Or give up spoons entirely, in favor of dreds!

Originally Posted by mihnea

I had a long reply then it got eaten. Anyway, I think there is a lack of labels as well, and it causes naming problems. I don't consider myself AmCab, because I don't use finger cymbals and I don't use a five part routine. I'm also not straight up Egyptian because some of my movements are more dramatic, I do candle tray, and veil. I also do more fusiony hands, some lotus hands and flamenco rolls. I'm definately not fusion like Rachel Brice, but I'm not pure Egyptian either. What style is this called? Just American Bellydance? There is no real title for those that are a bit outside of the mold on both accounts, and yet not really off in outer space either.

Originally Posted by midnight_star56

If you had to define "egyptian dance" and "oriental" would there be a difference? I'm just curious as to what make egyptian dance "egytian"...if the person is egyptian and they are dancing is it egyptian? What about shows like Oriental Star in turkey? Are they dancing egyptian (even though they do what the call oriental roman?). I'm asking because I was under the impression that oriental reffered to "east" and not specifically egypt. I always concerned Rak Sharqi with egypt, or Kaliigi (forgive my spelling) or Saiidi.... I was unaware that oriental=egypt. I myself sometimes refer to myself as a American Oriental dancer- so I'm probobly one of the people your pissed at!

Oriental doesn't mean Egyptian. It just means 'eastern,' and Turkish Oriental is different from Egyptian Oriental. (and American Oriental is also different, and doesn't imply Egyptian style to me at all).

For reference, Roman in Turkish means what we would call Gypsy, and is different from Turkish Oriental. (although there was a Roman Havasi category on the Oriental Star show, so that's confusing...) Khaleegi refers to the Gulf, not Egypt (though there are a lot of Saudi tourists in Egypt, so the Egyptian dancers often do a little Khaleegy style in their shows.

Completely understood ..g.:

I usually consider myself as doing Am Cab or Gothic fusion, and I try really really hard to make sure I get "labeled" correctly. I'm interested in the more classic Egyptian style, and I would hate to show up to a class/workshop/performance on Egyptian only to discoverer it was not so.

Attaching labels is sometimes hard to do. But if we are going to label, we need to do so correctly.

Originally Posted by theheartofdance

Please understand that I'm not passing judgment on anyone who chooses to dance other styles. We all have our preferences and there's some really cool stuff out there. My problem is with incorrect marketing, and the fact that people insist on marketing themselves as Egyptian dancers, when that is not what they are doing.

There has been a recent big debate on the "Biz of Bellydance" tribe at tribe.net on the notion of labeling correctly. In this case, the question is that of what type of dance, exactly, should be qualified to call itself "American Tribal Style"? Ie, would any cued group improv count, or does it need to be based on FatChance cues and step combinations? If it's based on those of Gypsy Caravan, does that render it ineligible to be called ATS?

Although a different style is in question, it still comes back to whether labels are appropriate, how granular they should be, whether they create more division than help, and who decides which label someone can use for their art.

I've never really understood why people think labels are all that divisive. Well--except when we use them to exclude people in such a fashion that we say "what you're doing is WRONG." I know that happens, because I still vividly remember the people who told me American Cabaret style dancers were doing it WRONG, and if they "knew better" they'd do the REAL thing (whatever that happened to be. Egyptian, I guess.)


Personally, from a noob-to-Tribal standpoint, I WISH they could decide on what to call the various branches. It seems like every time I think I get a handle on what I want to learn, someone tells me, "Oh that's more xyz than abc." Or that's not REALLY tribal. As a student, it's enough to make you go AAUGH!

lets keep in mind also that Egypt changes and so does Egyptian style. So now you can go to Egypt and see dancers doing whole veil sections in their performance. does that mean veil is proper Egyptian?

Originally Posted by jasani

This is an interesting statement, "Why do people insist on tarnishing the community with a misinformed display of Egyptian dance when what they're really doing is American Cabaret and fusion?"

I think this, below, is an interesting statement...

because I've watched some of the Egyptian dance star movies from the 40's and it looks like a fusion of ballet moves and a lot of basic hip movements to me.

Our perceptions of cultural context of course is relative to the level of education we may have received on the subject...

Two (well three, but the third isn't directly relevant to the discussion) main points that your observation brings to mind is 1. They are movies, choreographed and produced and sold as a product to make money... and by all accounts (of those that saw the real deal) not a true example of the "ethnographic reality"* of raqs sharqi of the time 2. Egyptian raqs sharqi is very much a culturally specific form of expression. The Egyptian people have a very strong and very proud national identity and dance as an expression of that identity isn't defined by movement repertoire alone but by a complex relationship between music, culture and dance

I've read articles that have stated Egyptian dance has changed due to what Hollywood (and American's) dictates ever since the 30s.

America has dictated how Egyptian dance has changed since the 30's?...

Interesting and doubly interesting that this wasn't picked up on earlier in the thread... but then again.

I'll try to dig up the article in which an Egyptian star dancer says American's dance Egyptian dance better than Egyptians. So with all this "fusion" in Oriental Dance, what does that say about Egyptian dance?

Egyptian culture is alive and well and ever evolving and that global influences upon any given culture doesn't invalidate its forms of expression...

Cheers

Nanda




*Totally my new favourite phrase... thanks Helene

Bellydance today has sort of become acrobatic or "stunt show". Many, particularly non-bellydancers, would equate a dancer who can do split, low back bend, or any impressive acrobatic moves as a good dancer. The definition of style is not something audience would take note of.

Many have failed to realise that a dance is a representation of one's culture and tradition. Doing it right is a mark of respect for the culture that the dance form evolves.