Thread: Help with Tahtib, Please.

I'm so excited! I'm hosting a Christmas student hafla and so far, everything is running very smoothly and it looks as though the turnout will be good.

The big thing, though... is that my two sons have always expressed an interest in my dance, and have enthusiastically agreed to perform a Tahtib number. Fabulous! How adorable will that be? (They're 10 & 7yrs).

Ummm... problem though. I don't know jack about Tahtib other than the half dozen or so performances I've seen. What kind of music do I use? Are there some good videos out there for me to study? .w.:

Morocco has a couple of videos with tahtib on them. Eva Cernik's "The Real Thing" has good tahtib on it. And do you want the "real" tahtib, or the staged tahtib (shorter stick, more like a male version of raks assaya) such as you might see on IAMED Awards 2 (I think), etc.

Music -- Saidi rhythm.

My boys did a mock tahtib at about the same ages as your sons (mine were 10 and 6). They just used dowel rods. It wasn't exactly authentic . . . but it was cute.

Originally Posted by kat

Morocco has a couple of videos with tahtib on them. Eva Cernik's "The Real Thing" has good tahtib on it. And do you want the "real" tahtib, or the staged tahtib (shorter stick, more like a male version of raks assaya) such as you might see on IAMED Awards 2 (I think), etc.

Music -- Saidi rhythm.

My boys did a mock tahtib at about the same ages as your sons (mine were 10 and 6). They just used dowel rods. It wasn't exactly authentic . . . but it was cute.

Just any Saidi rhythm? I assume something earthier and not pop'ish?

Well, this isn't a big show or anything. Just a little Student hafla, so I'm not overly concerned about it being anything fancy or even very polished with the time frame and ages I have to work with, but I'd like it to be as close to authentic as we can...

Are dowel rods not a good idea? That's what I was going to do too...

hi,
go to you tube and pull a demo reel for Yasmina Ramzy and Arabesque Dance Company. There is good footage there of Tahtib being done. You are close by you could call her or the studio for some fast pointers.
good luck and have fun

Good question. Where does one get a tahtib?

Azeeza

Sahara Saida did a dance documentary of her Egyptian club scene in Cairo years ago. I don't remember the name of the video but its VHS (I'm certain) and it has excellent footage and information on Tahtyib on it. I can't image finding it for sale anywhere but maybe a friend has it that you can borrow?

~*Gen*~

I have seen lovely footage of Tito and <forgot-the-name> from Israel doing stick. Both on Youtube.

And, I've seen Karim Nagi dance with PVC pipe in a performance, so I'd think that dowel rods would be just fine.

Adi that will be so sweet!!

Originally Posted by steffib

IAnd, I've seen Karim Nagi dance with PVC pipe in a performance, so I'd think that dowel rods would be just fine.

Wow, I never realized before that Karim Nagi dances -- but I went to his website and watched that demo video, where a brief moment of the PVC pipe dance can be seen, among other things. Cool!

Originally Posted by Azeeza

Good question. Where does one get a tahtib?

Azeeza

Go out and cut a straightish stick and take the bark off it?

I have this very short clip I took during Asmahan's show last spring.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRJEm1nQkks"]YouTube - Tahtib from Asmahan's Show[/ame]

Originally Posted by Adishakti

I'm so excited! I'm hosting a Christmas student hafla and so far, everything is running very smoothly and it looks as though the turnout will be good.

The big thing, though... is that my two sons have always expressed an interest in my dance, and have enthusiastically agreed to perform a Tahtib number. Fabulous! How adorable will that be? (They're 10 & 7yrs).

Ummm... problem though. I don't know jack about Tahtib other than the half dozen or so performances I've seen. What kind of music do I use? Are there some good videos out there for me to study? .w.:

Hello, Sometimes when my husband and I dance we use a drum solo for the Tahtib part

If you can get your hands on old mahmoud reda troupe footage, I think saut wa sora put out a collection, I remember seeing some excellent tahtib choreographies. I've also seen some decent tahtib on some of my oriental show videos, like I think Fifi cherry picker show has a little tahtib, and I think Leila's...well several actually, so you can sort through whatever oriental videos you have at home that might have a folkloric section, but here are some you tube links, I put several below. Sorry if some of these are repeats from above. I've stolen moves off several of these. They're pretty great.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxpvI6n9GDE]YouTube - Mohamed Shahin[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd553DGRO5w]YouTube - Tito at the Nile Festival Opening Gala[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfukcTjWJyA]YouTube - Tahtib[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkBMKezA62s]YouTube - Danza del Tahtib[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NJdTlTe9EQ]YouTube - Saidi -egipcio-[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cjVt0sj5U0]YouTube - Saidi perfomance in France[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qdRC2_bPpA]YouTube - Male Saidi 2 Training[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1NVBq2xquc]YouTube - Male Saidi Training[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7wsB9wgwlE]YouTube - Nile Group Festival - Magdy El Leisy and Ahmed Fekry p.1[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDUBtNMFAdA]YouTube - Mens Stick Dance - Zaza Hassan[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dowIWbQhVgs]YouTube - Raks Assaya[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FkxpUUI4XM]YouTube - Saidi Show in Brazil[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yg_KghNdw4]YouTube - Mohamed Shahin[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvsYfPvXjbw]YouTube - Tito @ the Las Vegas IBDC 2007-3[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ48AxomLy4]YouTube - Tito @ the Las Vegas IBDC 2007-8[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMBmbYMgFrw"]YouTube - Karim Nagi performs Tahteeb (Saidi Egyptian cane dance)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeIbCQ81NVk"]YouTube - Nile Group Festival - Magdy El Leisy and Ahmed Fekry p.2[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBqzfZ0oSLM"]YouTube - Egyptian day in Ottawa U[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWmq1iz2sGA"]YouTube - Egyptian day in Ottawa U[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNYA5pGnQxw"]YouTube - Shafeek Ibrahim - Double Stick Dance[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRIYlMIPI-s"]YouTube - Mosha7 Dance &amp; Stick Dance ( Sa3edy ) Essam Mounir Choreogra[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFDFSl6z14U"]YouTube - National Egyptian Dance Troupe - Tour 2007[/ame]

can you tell I'm a saidi lover? If you find any more good resources, let me know.

ps. Karim teaches a great saidi- tahtib workshop, so it you get a chance, take it or send your boys.

okay, the rest of your questions. The real tahtib assaya made of bamboo or sugar cane are a little hard to find in America. I know cleoscloset.com has them sometimes. But wooden dowels are a great idea and they will work fine. I've been told a good length is about up to chest height (by an male Egyptian dance friend of mine). Try and find straight ones of even weight. You can even glitz them up with shiny contact paper, although you might not want to for your boys. You can also stain them to make them look a little more finished for stage.


Music, you will want a Saidi peice. You can use pop or more traditional. I'd recommend looking for something with Mizmar as well as a Saidi rhythm. Tito uses a tabla solo for his Tahtib and I really like that, and you could also use a really earthy beledi taksim. Actually a beledi taksim that starts out in a Saidi rhythm and ends up in a Falahi or fast Ayub might be nice for the rhythm change. You might want to start a unique thread just to get people to give you specific music recommendations if you have trouble finding something you like. You'll hear a lot of examples in the clips I posted of good music for Saidi Tahtib.

Have fun.

Wow, Shems, that is a fabulous collection of videos--thank you for posting them!

Holy cow, Shems. There are tons of clips there! I'm going to go get myself a coffee and a notepad, and settle to these for a while.

Thank you everyone! This is great! I have no idea how it'll all pan out, but it's going to be fun trying and my boys are really excited. I have a home studio so we are going to have some fun with this, and I will post a video clip after the show.

Thanks again!

Shems - thanks! That collection of vids is awesome!

Okay, so now I need to understand. What is the difference between "Tahtib" and "Raks Assaya?" I thought for a moment that it was simply gender related, but now I see that isn't so. Is Tahtib simply dancing with more than one cane? (or stick or whatever you like) - or is there more to it?

Originally Posted by elljay

Shems - thanks! That collection of vids is awesome!

Okay, so now I need to understand. What is the difference between "Tahtib" and "Raks Assaya?" I thought for a moment that it was simply gender related, but now I see that isn't so. Is Tahtib simply dancing with more than one cane? (or stick or whatever you like) - or is there more to it?

That's the "staged" one person male raks assaya, in my opinion (yeah, yeah, flame me . . . . ). Tahtib is a folk art or a martial art -- 1 stick per person, very long, I think 5-6 foot if the mock fighting is done on foot, longer if on horseback. Tahtib is definitely traditionally male, as it is representative of the ancient method of fighting. The raks assaya is generally thought of as the female version -- flirty, mimicing/mocking the male tahtib, but I understand it can be done by either gender. However, the double stick (shorter, much shorter than the traditional tahtib stick) I believe is a more modern, staged version that is done by men. Somebody with more knowledge on this please chime in if I'm incorrect or if there is more info. . .

My understanding is very similar. Tahtib is basically a martial arts dance traditionally done by men in the Said region of Egypt. As far as I know it has been done both with one and two sticks traditionally. The length of the stick varies considerably and sometimes the man may even use a crooked cane. I think it depends mostly on what is available to them at the time. The way I understand it, the dance element of traditional tahtib stems from men showing off their skills before a fight to intimidate their opponent. This has been taken and theatricalized for stage performance, Reda in particular adding more balletic movements to it.

Raqs Assaya translates directly as "stick dance". I suppose it could refer to the dance done by either gender, but typically we use it to designate the woman's dance. The woman's raqs assaya is based on the men's Tahtib martial arts. I always imagine the woman taking the assaya out of a man's hands and telling him, "you think this is a dangerous weapon in your hands, look how much more dangerous it becomes in mine." Because it is a parody of Tahtib, it's appropriate for the woman to mimic the man's proud fighting attitude, also it's okay for her to use both a crooked cane or a straight stick and it's okay to use 2 canes or sticks just like the men do. It is also okay for her to commandeer the men's moves and add them to her repertoire when she does raqs assaya. Her job is to take a fighting dance and make it fun, cute, feminine, flirty, and still impressive.

Excerpts of handouts from my Tahtib workshops:

"Asa: Cane used for Tahtib

Adraab: Hit

Assud: Defend
Assaya: Cane

Tahtib: A mens martial arts “dance”, traditionally a ritualised mock combat using a staff/cane called an Asa, performed to the live drumming of the Saidii rhythm.

Raqs el Assaya: A dance that is gently poking fun at the mens Tahtib, it is essentially a cultural parody. The dancer is teasing and playful, adapting moves and steps done by the men in the Tahtib to make them more feminine and coquettish as to imitate the men in a fun sort of way."

Also, according to Morocco a session of men's tahtib can last most of the night, various 'combatants' taking turns to challenge one another in a circle... this 'mock' combat can often get quite serious.

Adishakti, my complete workshops notes include basic tahtib technique and some simple combinations that can be strung together to form a loose choreo to suit which ever saidi piece you've chosen. If you're interested in a copy email me and I can shoot you through a pdf: shimmy at iinet dot net dot au

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

Excerpts of handouts from my Tahtib workshops:

"Asa: Cane used for Tahtib

Adraab: Hit

Assud: Defend
Assaya: Cane

Tahtib: A mens martial arts “dance”, traditionally a ritualised mock combat using a staff/cane called an Asa, performed to the live drumming of the Saidii rhythm.

Raqs el Assaya: A dance that is gently poking fun at the mens Tahtib, it is essentially a cultural parody. The dancer is teasing and playful, adapting moves and steps done by the men in the Tahtib to make them more feminine and coquettish as to imitate the men in a fun sort of way."

Also, according to Morocco a session of men's tahtib can last most of the night, various 'combatants' taking turns to challenge one another in a circle... this 'mock' combat can often get quite serious.

Adishakti, my complete workshops notes include basic tahtib technique and some simple combinations that can be strung together to form a loose choreo to suit which ever saidi piece you've chosen. If you're interested in a copy email me and I can shoot you through a pdf: shimmy at iinet dot net dot au

Thank you, Nanda - that would be great. I just fired you off an email.

Thanks ladies!

Adishakti - I really hope you get your boys on video and post is somewhere (somewhere safe, that is)....I'd really love to see it! :)

WOW! Thank you so much Shems for posting all those YouTube links to Saidi! I am a Saidi-lover, too...and those clips are fantastic - what a great resource!
Thanks again! :-)
Astryd Farah
-------------
Astryd Farah deMichele ~ International Middle Eastern Dance Artist
USA & EGYPT


[QUOTE=shems;79771]If you can get your hands on old mahmoud reda troupe footage, I think saut wa sora put out a collection, I remember seeing some excellent tahtib choreographies. I've also seen some decent tahtib on some of my oriental show videos, like I think Fifi cherry picker show has a little tahtib, and I think Leila's...well several actually, so you can sort through whatever oriental videos you have at home that might have a folkloric section, but here are some you tube links, I put several below. Sorry if some of these are repeats from above. I've stolen moves off several of these. They're pretty great.

I am in stick boy heaven!

I love the Saidi rhythm, and you put up some great clips Shems. I have successfully killed the morning and avoided the work I should be doing.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

Just any Saidi rhythm? I assume something earthier and not pop'ish?

Are dowel rods not a good idea?

Honestly my Fiancée just danced and got 3rd at a competition doing Tahtib to a Hakim song so pop music is fine, as long as it's a more masculine feeling to it (that's my thoughts)

Kiore also has used a wooden dowel for practice, however for performance we have a long bamboo/rattan stick and a shorter walking cane that is decorated (for those small venues)

if you have more questions please feel free to email him at embracethemadness@gmail.com he would love to talk to you about it I'm sure.

M

Shems you kick ass! I just passed all those videos to Kiore! He's thrilled :) *bounces*

M

Thanks Shems! How Saiidelicious!

Originally Posted by Adishakti

Just any Saidi rhythm? I assume something earthier and not pop'ish?

Well, this isn't a big show or anything. Just a little Student hafla, so I'm not overly concerned about it being anything fancy or even very polished with the time frame and ages I have to work with, but I'd like it to be as close to authentic as we can...

Are dowel rods not a good idea? That's what I was going to do too...

Hi there! I am a semi-decent tahteeb dancer as my wonderful fiancee desertroses said. :)

For the stick, I use a 3/4" - 1" dowel for practicing. I picked it up in the crafts section of my local Wal-Mart and it cost me all of 97 cents. When I perform I use a brown cane (about three feet long) that has burnout sections on it that I cut the curvey bit off of and wrapped both sides in tennis racket grip tape to keep it from flying out of my hand. If I want to do a more traditional performance I have a six and a half foot long bamboo staff.

For music, I typically use poppy Egyptian music like Hakim or Nancy. Saaidi beats are good too!

The dance that I do is very poppy and flirtatious. It boarders on traditional tahteeb with a mix of women's cane dancing. This means they are going to want to be bouncy in the knees and shoulders when they are walking. If you can get them do to shoulder shimmies that would look awesome! Basic traveling steps and forward and back double steps should look pretty cool. If they are up to it try getting them to do some three step turns with the stick over their head or in front of them and then have them practice spinning the stick while they are walking. Those videos are a great resource too.

Let me know if I can be of any more help!

-Kiore

Sahra told us that dowels were perfectly acceptable for tahtib. Mine are 3/4" and I have stained them a darker brown.

{{{HUGS}}}