Thread: ATS? How do you ensure that you entertain?

As you see , I am specificallythinking of ATS not Raks Sharki.
In its' "purest" form ATS is surely very structured and always improvised. That , to my eyes makes it very much a participant activity. Dancers would be able to join together and dance together even if they did not study and practise together with a common knowledge. That's very attractve BUT is it always entertaining and assuming we have an audience,isn't that what we are supposed to be doing?Sisterhood is all very well but if you exclude your watchers, it can become tedious, I imagine and introspective.
The image of the costuming is what often attracts dancers and I often find that this seems to be foremost in wannabee students' minds when they embark on the style and not necessarily the sharpness of techinique and the drilling and practise. You also have to have posture and polish just as much as any belly dancer to be delightful to watch.
Of course I have seen and been delighted by good practise in "pure" ATS as I have by orientale and fusion numbers.
I know dancers who are dedicated to that path but there is a lot of tribal (as opposed to ATS) dancers who are diluting their performance by a lack of sharp moves and poor music choice.
What examples of ATS dancers who are high on entertainent values would you put forward?
Those of you who dance the style, what advice would you gve to others to ensure that what they do is not only fulfilling to your troupe but to the watchers?
Can a solo artiste ever convey the message of ATS?
Is ATS fading in the face of novelty tribal?
Those of you in the USA, who/what are the movers and shakers of ATS (not tribal or fusion)?(the great originals or new kids on the block)
A Raks Sharki dancer can impress in a very simple costume..a plain gelabeya or beladi dress, can an ATS troupe ever do the same?
signed LIZAJUK Things that I muse over as we embark on a new tribal routine. We've only done improv on a couple of occasions even though I have been to workshops with some of the greats, we have always plumped for choreo and some kind of fusion as entertainment.

I do not currently do ATS, tho I have looked into it in the past and reserve the right to jump in later

I like ATS. Let's get that clear before I post the rest of what I'm about to say!
I think that relatively new, pure FCBD ATS dancers should keep their pieces short. Groups just starting with each other tend to repeat the same combos over and over. It's entertaining for the first little bit, or the first time you see it, but I, amoung others I have talked to in the GP, find it boring after a while. like that 10 minute piece? yeah. Not a good idea. Now, it seems to me that most groups end up adding their own combinations along the way. Dancers gradually become accustomed to a wider variety of moves and get the hang of both varying their own sequences and not repeating what the last leader just did. These more experienced dancers have the *potential* of being interesting and much more entertaining.

I don't really see this as being that different from a new dancer in oriental style sticking strictly to the "move #1 times 4, move #2 times 4" type routines. On top of that, in either style, personality can really make or break a performance. The local ATS/ITS head honcho could do just about anything, and if she grins at me, I'm hooked.

i also don't dance ATS but will offer my opinion as an audience member. i didn't really get ATS until i saw it live. i was blown away by the joy and energy those ladies projected. they are a not famous, dance-for-fun troupe. skill levels varied, it was obvious who the teacher was. but they were all having a blast.

at rakkasah, i saw wildcard bellydance and they also blew me away. they had more interesting finger cymbal patterns, they were extremely polished and tight. again, radiating out that joy.

for me, ATS is unique in the supportive, emotional experience the dancers have with each other. i don't mind being not-the-center of the dancers' attention. maybe others find that tedious, but i don't. i've gotten more from watching ATS than some technically fabulous (but emotional distant) sharki performances.

I have done ATS in the past, and I still love it (and still join in from time to time). I think ATS works incredibly well for festivals and fairs where most of the people are passing from one place to another and pause to watch just a snippet of a show.

Additionally, I also think that exceptionally skilled ATS troupes CAN make longer stage shows work very well, but they often also blend in choreography, solos and other things to give more variety to the show. I think a seasoned, professional troupe would know what they need to do to put on a show that can hold the attention of their audience for that longer span of time (this really is the case with any sort of performance art though, and not just an ATS troupe).

I also think that knowing the venue and audience is important. Would a strictly ATS set it work in your typical restaurant setting where the audience expects traditional cabaret restaurant style sets? Not likely. But it might work well at a funky coffee shop or a Renn Faire or in other circumstances.

I love ATS, I think it was really my first love in terms of bellydance styles. But I absolutely see that there are some limitations to the format that would need to be addressed to make it work in certain environments, venues or with certain audiences.

Emtink. I've seen Wildcard on Youtube and they look to be something special!
Do you know if they have performance on DVD anywhere?

Nazirahdanes. yes venue! Get it right and ATS will look so good. I have DVD footage of Wendy Marlatt when she danced it the UK and Ireland with British dancers in Rashani and she seemed it get it rght in terms of "atmosphere".
A hafla floor or bare stage might not be the ideal backdrop.
ATS has the potential to look good out doors in a way belly dance doesn't!

How many troupes apart from FCBD and GC use live music I wonder?
How many troupes get gigs in clubs? We got askd a few ytears ago to dance in a local bar by its' female owners. We declined because although they approved of these "not a perfect 10",middle aged tribal fusion dancers, we had the idea their clientale might be less than enthusiastic. Now a couple of RB look-a-likes, a different matter. Be interesting to hear the different paid opportunities ATS/Tribal and Fusion dancers.

Interesting discussion. Full disclosure: I love ATS and I'm a certified ATS teacher.

Those of you who dance the style, what advice would you gve to others to ensure that what they do is not only fulfilling to your troupe but to the watchers?
I think it's important for you to have a good relationship with your dance partners. If you're having fun, and you trust your partners, the audience will respond positively. Aside from that, all the general things that make a successful dance apply: technique and posture, an open and pleasant expression, musicality, etc.

Can a solo artiste ever convey the message of ATS?
I would say it's not ideal. The magic is really in the group, and it seems silly to strictly adhere to cues and other movement-specific gestures when there is no one behind you. That being said, I've still enjoyed some ATS solos I've seen.

Is ATS fading in the face of novelty tribal?
I don't think so. There's a lot of novelty out there, but I think it will sort itself out. ATS has a lot of devotees that are very loyal to Carolena's vision.

Those of you in the USA, who/what are the movers and shakers of ATS (not tribal or fusion)?(the great originals or new kids on the block)
Obviously FatChanceBellydance and Devyani. I also have liked what I've seen from Manhattan Tribal, and Hipnosis in Philadelphia (they are improv, but not ATS). Ghawazi Caravan is up-and-coming from Australia and has contributed some new movements to the FCBD vocabulary. But, honestly, there are few troupes that display the mastery of the format to the level that FCBD does.

I think it might be a while before other troupes can even come close to comparison. Why? ... and this is the reason why I think many ATS performances are unsuccessful: It is just not the movement vocabulary, or the fact that it is danced improvisationally as a group ... there is a larger philosophy behind the format, dancers must grasp the technique AND the philosophy AND apply that understanding when actually dancing. Until all those pieces come together, I think the performances can be weak, and a lot of times, dancers are steamrolling over the music and the followers are merely "mimicking" the leader rather than everyone actually DANCING.

Raks Sharki dancer can impress in a very simple costume..a plain gelabeya or beladi dress, can an ATS troupe ever do the same?
Oh absolutely! Pantaloons, floofy skirt, choli, zills and we are ready to roll!

Wow, that was some rant I went on!

Anyway, here are a couple of my favorite FCBD performances:


FCBD dueling duets, followed by a jaw-dropping drum solo duet.


This is from Vol. 1 of the FCBD DVDs, but it's still one of my favorites. You can see that they are sticking with very basic movements but it's all very integrated.

Omchantress..great post. I am Pming you.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Emtink. I've seen Wildcard on Youtube and they look to be something special!
Do you know if they have performance on DVD anywhere?

i don't know, i'm really unfamiliar with them... other than loving their rakkasah performance! you should probably check out their website WildCard BellyDance : Professional Tribal Style Belly Dance Troupe - Santa Rosa, Sonoma County, Northern California

While I admire the artistry and technical excellence that has been developed by pioneers in tribal fusion, not to mention the costuming, I think TF's capacity to be entertaining can be very hit or miss. That is also true sometimes of ATS, especially when the performances are very very very very very long.

This is when I find ATS exciting:

1) When the dancers are interacting and having fun. One of my favourite occurrences when people are doing tribal (GC too) is when someone slightly messes up or something doesn't quite work and the dancers all laugh and smile and clearly interact positively. They look to be having such fun together and that is infectious.

2) When it has that old-school National Geographic, Silk Road, Orientalist feel. When I did my research, the tribal dancers I interviewed - who had been doing it for a while - nearly all pointed to the original Tattoed One FCBD video as the thing that grabbed them. The lushness of the costuming, the intensity, the acoustic Arabic music... it resonates very deeply I think. To me it loses something when the costuming goes minimal (unless you're talking Urban Tribal or some company like that which is pretty much contemporary dance) and when the music is western.

3) When the dancers are working very well together in sync. A bunch of ATS dancers doing fast turns together looks very awesome.

4) When the dancers do not have crappy hands. There seems to be a lot of Stop In The Name Of Love hand positioning going on among tribal dancers and it doesn't look very good. It's also not "right" for the hands to look like that, I know. So developing good hands and arms are very important.

5) I reckon live musicians would really add to the experience.

If you are on FB, check out Kindred Tribal dancing to music by Americanistan. They really had the crowd going (scroll down to the three videos) Kindred Tribal Belly Dance | Facebook:

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

This is when I find ATS exciting:

1) When the dancers are interacting and having fun. One of my favourite occurrences when people are doing tribal (GC too) is when someone slightly messes up or something doesn't quite work and the dancers all laugh and smile and clearly interact positively. They look to be having such fun together and that is infectious..

I dance with OmChantress in an ATS influenced troupe. My boyfriend says he loves the performances where it feels like anything could happen, when everything is flowing but happening fast or the dancers are tossing the lead back and forth or you can see people playing with each. Barely controlled chaos, with good technique.

I also like to watch troupes with good dancer interaction, and also where I feel like each dancer is solid and centered which in turn makes the whole group feel centered. It gives an excellent grounding to the dancing that I find soothing.

I think like any other troupes, ATS dancers need to know how to build a good set when they need to. How to enter, songs that go well together, adding props and solos, group versus duets. For a captive audience, we've found our maximum set length seems to be 15 minutes, after that it gets too repetitive.

Now, though I love the form I do have a few things that bother me. Few troupes will ever touch what FCBD is doing, and I think they need to have a really strong director with a vision and the iron will to keep the group tight and focused. Also, I think each ATS dancer needs to make sure that, when using more dynamic music, they know how to respond to changes in that music. The moves may be rhythmic but they do have different feelings to them, so learn how to pair them to your music.

Lastly, zills. I love that ATS uses zills and a lot of ATS dancers love to play them, but they are so damn boring. For many songs I feel the dancers are dancing to the zills and not the music. As I learn more about zills in my non-ATS classes, the more I want to bring simple patterns into our dancing to better work with the music we use. I think it'll work into more patterns paired to movements and/or patterns that are set to pieces of music while the dancing is improv with that. I'm sure if I actually get to do this it'll be a train wreck before it gets better, but I'm willing to try.

As for ATS minus the costuming: On their "San Franciso Beledi" DVD FCBD used stripped down costuming for some pieces and it still looks great. I've seen pick up groups of dancers jamming together at festivals and it's just as magical to watch when half the people are in jeans. The full majesty of the complete ATS costume is a gorgeous thing, and I think it is particularly good for general public performances, leaving the more minimalistic costuming to BD events or for a particular piece that is being executed.

I think one of the biggest problems is musicality. The nature of ATS as a canned set of combinations means those combinations exist without the music, not specifically for it. It takes a lot of skill to make big pieces fit together nicely on the spur of the moment. I don't think it matters what style of dance you're doing (ATS or otherwise), one of the most boring things to watch is a student who gets on stage with the attitude of, "I'm going to do four of this and eight of that, and music be damned, because I've already made up my mind how I'm going to dance." Bad ATS can create this same feeling. The audience wants to believe you're dancing with the music and because of the music, not randomly next to it in some detached, rote way.

The other thing that creates a lot of bad ATS is lack of preparation. If you jump into someone else's tribe on a lark or by last-minute invitation, that's a different matter, but if you're a group that is working together regularly, you shouldn't get on stage without having a lot of practice time under your belts. Yes, ATS is supposed to be improvised and spontaneous. No, it isn't supposed to look like everybody except the current leader is in a state of half-panic over what move may be coming next. To me, whatever artistic credibility you gain from working without a net is undermined when members of the group look visibly lost. There's a difference between the kind of real-time "Oops!" Zum was describing, and simply looking like you don't know what you're doing. If you haven't developed some basic intuition for how each person tends to lead when it's their turn, or if you haven't mastered the cues, you're not quite ready for prime time. The audience is supposed to be watching a performance, not a practice session.

Wonderful thread! I didn't see anyone mention this though - "ATS" now refers exclusively to Carolena's format, yes? That is way important, right? Other group improv formats are ITS or ? That's my understanding.

So under that distinction, I don't do "ATS" but I do teach an ITS format. I also don't have a troupe but just a group of student performers.
I know it IS challenging to keep the audience entertained during student performances in general, let alone group improv. We do work on music interpretation, that is, following the feeling or phrasing of music; as well as "playing" to the audience by not facing away for too long, or staying in one type of formation for a long time, etc. Sometimes we use veils, and our cymbal patterns are varied, not monotonous.
The cameraderie of group improv (among other benefits) make it so worthwhile for groups to learn. There's nothing like it - and I think that when the dancers are having fun, it does help to entertain the audience to some extent.

Anthea yes ATS/ITS also. The one teacher I have not yet managed to get to is Carolena..Paulette yes, Kajira yes, Wendy Marlett yes but not the girl herself
Thanks to everyone for the comments. It's interesting to read comment about what is now an established dance form (It most certainly wasn't over here when I started 8 or 9 years ago) an how it has become recognized and how fusions have developed from it.
I do sometimes wonder if there is a dancer of ATS/OTS getting stuck in a way Raks Sharki never seems to as it allows a dancer to explore it on an individual basis.
Do you all think it is much harder to develop a singular dance personality as a troupe than it is as a solo Raks Sharki dancer? This is surely what makes a troupe like FCBD as pleasing as they are to watch. From what I have seen Wild Card also have that "personality". Others I see, I think fail. signed LIZAJUK

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Do you all think it is much harder to develop a singular dance personality as a troupe than it is as a solo Raks Sharki dancer? This is surely what makes a troupe like FCBD as pleasing as they are to watch. From what I have seen Wild Card also have that "personality". Others I see, I think fail. signed LIZAJUK

Perhaps it depends on whether you want people to maintain a way to express their personal identities within the group or if you want the group to function only as its own entity with personality. Those are both more difficult than just being yourself as one person on stage. The Indigo works because each dancer is a star in her own right, and JabbaWockeeZ (I know, not BD, but as anonymous a group of great dancers as you'll ever find) works because each member has sacrificed personal identity to create a troupe personality. Historically, I think ATS has leaned toward the anonymous model a little more than the collaborative independence one, but either philosophy could work.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Anthea yes ATS/ITS also. The one teacher I have not yet managed to get to is Carolena..Paulette yes, Kajira yes, Wendy Marlett yes but not the girl herself
Thanks to everyone for the comments. It's interesting to read comment about what is now an established dance form (It most certainly wasn't over here when I started 8 or 9 years ago) an how it has become recognized and how fusions have developed from it.
I do sometimes wonder if there is a dancer of ATS/OTS getting stuck in a way Raks Sharki never seems to as it allows a dancer to explore it on an individual basis.
Do you all think it is much harder to develop a singular dance personality as a troupe than it is as a solo Raks Sharki dancer? This is surely what makes a troupe like FCBD as pleasing as they are to watch. From what I have seen Wild Card also have that "personality". Others I see, I think fail. signed LIZAJUK

solo dancers are in just as much danger of getting stuck in a rut, and it is just as hard to identify and develop a stage personality. In some ways, it *can* (note, I did NOT say always is!) be easier to do this in a group, if the group has good chemistry, because you can bounce things off each other, try things out, work it out as a group. Doesn't always work that way, and I hope you don't feel discouraged, tho it sounds like you are struggling with this right now! It's always tempting to say "it's so easy for them, they...(fill in the blank)" but everyone has their own gifts and challenges- what comes easy to some is harder to negotiate for others, regardless of style.

Originally Posted by anthea

Wonderful thread! I didn't see anyone mention this though - "ATS" now refers exclusively to Carolena's format, yes? That is way important, right? Other group improv formats are ITS or ? That's my understanding.

FatChanceBellyDance: Director's Cut: ATS Old School, ATS New Style

In addition to what else has been said, some groups pull out solos, duos, trios within a piece, with the rest of the group acting as a sort of chorus line during those bits. In other words, when we are all together, we do more complicated group combos. When someone is dancing apart from the main group, the rest of us keep it simple so as not to distract from the soloist (or duo or trio). Then we will regroup and return to more complicated combos and formations. We try to vary the formations, do a lot of line fading, and always be aware of the audience (e.g. not shut them out by staying in a circle for too long). So, we try to have a lot of variety.

As for costumes, well, we were at a bazaar/hafla type of event on Sunday, and between our sets, we were hanging around in coverups, with some bits of costuming (belts, etc.) removed underneath, watching the other dancers. A drummer was there, sometimes just providing ambience between sets, but she also had her own set. During this, after she'd been drumming for a few minutes, she encouraged people to get up and dance. So, a troupemate and I got up and started improv-ing in our coverups. After a bit, another troupemate joined us, and then a fourth. The drummer played off of what we were doing, and we played off of her--with changes in tempo, etc. It was great fun, totally spur of the moment, purely unplanned, and not in costume. I wasn't in the audience, but some people who were mentioned that they enjoyed it, so I guess it was entertaining, too.

Originally Posted by CalgaryBibi

In addition to what else has been said, some groups pull out solos, duos, trios within a piece, with the rest of the group acting as a sort of chorus line during those bits. In other words, when we are all together, we do more complicated group combos. When someone is dancing apart from the main group, the rest of us keep it simple so as not to distract from the soloist (or duo or trio). Then we will regroup and return to more complicated combos and formations. We try to vary the formations, do a lot of line fading, and always be aware of the audience (e.g. not shut them out by staying in a circle for too long). So, we try to have a lot of variety.

Yes, we do too! except for the "line fading", which I assume means front & back row switch? but we have other switcheroo techniques up our sleeves...
I do think there's opportunite for lots of variety in a group improv set, and overall I believe the audience IS quite entertained -

Originally Posted by marsbar

FatChanceBellyDance: Director's Cut: ATS Old School, ATS New Style

Thanks Marbars, Shay shared that with me a while ago - still watching the evolution of "labels"... (oh yes I know some people hate labels, but they do help clarify)

Originally Posted by anthea

Yes, we do too! except for the "line fading", which I assume means front & back row switch? but we have other switcheroo techniques up our sleeves...
I do think there's opportunite for lots of variety in a group improv set, and overall I believe the audience IS quite entertained -

Yes. By fading, I mean switching rows--when we are in a stagger formation. We have some other moves, too, that involve moving around each other in pairs, etc.

>Those of you who dance the style, what advice would you gve to others to ensure that what they do is not only fulfilling to your troupe but to the watchers?

-Provide variety to the staging concepts. In a 15 minute set or 2 8 minute sets you can provide 2 specialties, i.e. floorwork, duelling duet, sword/basket work, etc.

-Get used to dancing to faster music. I don't want to watch a performance to plodding music that is used to drill in beginner's class. Don't ever perform to Sout with Spice. If a fast song can be described as mid-tempo, it's probably not a good performance choice. Dying to use a song that is sluggish? Speed it up with software.

-Get used to dancing faster in the lead. If a dancer needs 8 counts to get her bearings in the lead, and then can't seem to get out of half turns, and then needs 8 more counts to figure out what to do next after she's managed to stop the half turns, then she shouldn't be leading in performance.

-Choose music that is very musical. ATS is a very repetitive dance - don't perform to repetitive music. Sometimes techno-based songs can be exciting, but usually they are not.

-Don't ever choose a song longer than 4 minutes. 3 minutes is ideal. 2 minute gems are even better and provide the opportunity for more variety. Got a song you love that is 5 minutes? Chop it & fade out. PLEASE!!!

-Slow - don't do much of it. I know you think it feels beautiful and sensual to do it, but mostly it's really boring to watch. There aren't that many slow moves to choose from. In a 10-12 minute set, choose only one 2-3 minute slow song. The rest should be quick fast, and fast with slow breaks. Fast ATS is exciting to watch. Slow ATS is not. Your audience is done with it after 2 minutes or less. Yes I am aware that most songs are "slow" - it takes a lot of work to find good "fast" songs.

-Please make an attempt to use eastern folkloric music. I can't tell you how awful it is to sit through ATS set to celtic or bluegrass. If the rhythm counts like rock & roll - straight 1 2 3 4 - it's boring (see techno above).

-Use small, occasional bits of choreo within improvisation to do something amazing. That awesome dynamic change in the song halfway through - use it to do 8-32 counts of specialty/unexpected choreo, then go back to the improv.

-Learn to follow your dance sisters' body language, not just specific moves as prescribed by FCBD. Don't get me wrong - I'm an FCBD student who tries hard to apply the rules. But sometimes you just have to throw in 2 spins at the end unexpectedly. Or spin 6 times instead of 4 at the end. Stuff happens - learn how to adapt seamlessly without letting the audience know that move doesn't have a name!

-Experiment with formation changes that go beyond the basics of FCBD dogma. Develop unique combinations or formations within your troupe and assign them a cue.

-Smile please, no matter how "fierce" you think you are.

-The vibe may be Tribal/natural/folky but the makeup should be drag queen. Less is not more here. Learn to foil those eyes.

-Please be picky about technique. The foot & armwork alone is not enough. I should be able to see shimmies, hip bumps, & undulations. If I can't see these, then it's just big girls playing cheerleader.

>Can a solo artiste ever convey the message of ATS?

No. ATS is not designed to respond to music the way Oriental Dance does. The beauty of ATS is the unity of the group, not the technique of 1. There is very little "belly dancing" in ATS - it's mostly skeletal. Use the big skeletal arms to your advantage in a group, not a solo. An exception would be if only 1 person in your troupe balances a sword or does deep floorwork - 60 seconds of specialty solo is OK as there is much more to look at.

Is ATS fading in the face of novelty tribal?
-Tribal fusion took over long ago.

>Those of you in the USA, who/what are the movers and shakers of ATS (not tribal or fusion)?(the great originals or new kids on the block)

-Well allow me the opportunity to pimp my troupe, Al-hambra Tribal Dance. You can find us on FB. New Cues & Tattoos video coming this week.