Thread: What is arabic dance?

HI Laura, Thanks for the link! I have just read it. "Arab" used in the post seemed to generalized middle east/ egyptian as Arabs, which essentially shares the same definition as tamrahennatx mentioned above.

But geographically speaking, Arab is defined differently.

I am getting this right?

I just thought of something - there have been several times I have been approached by a person who has seen me dance - an Arab person and they have seemed surpised that I danced "Arabic dance" - their words. So I think that they understand what is meant by that term.

I've often encountered "Arabic dance" used by Arabs in the same way that Tamra Henna reports. Sometimes (not always) I get the sense that they're translating for me to be helpful since, as an obvious not-Arab, I'm not expected to know the "real" terms for what I do in Arabic.

Just to add another wrinkle, my Iranian friends use the term "Arabic dance" for the styles of dance that I would call raqs sharqi, raqs beledi, Egyptian folkdance, and bellydance and for the kind of social dancing you might see at an Egyptian wedding. For them it seems to be the catchall for "what those folks next door do, as distinct from what we do." They love it, and some of them do it themselves, but they're still drawing a line.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I just thought of something - there have been several times I have been approached by a person who has seen me dance - an Arab person and they have seemed surpised that I danced "Arabic dance" - their words. So I think that they understand what is meant by that term.

Yes, and a number of Persians I've spoken with refer to belly dance as "Arabic dance".

Although many of us American dancers draw a fine distinction between Egyptian and Lebanese dance, and examine under a microscopic the stylistic nuances that make them different from each other, the people from Arabic-speaking countries aren't necessarily educated in those nuances. A person whose ethnic family background comes from Saudi Arabia who hires a dancer in to perform at a wedding in the U.S. is very unlikely to ask, "Do you do Egyptian style, Lebanese style, Syrian style, or Palestinian style?" They'll just want someone who dances to music that has been popularly played on Arabic-language radio stations, done by someone who has a heart for interpreting that music, with costuming that resembles what they've seen on Arabic-language satellite television, and an overall aesthetic that feels more Oriental than Occidental.

I too have heard some Egyptians say that they're "pharaonic" and not arabs, though I'm not quite sure what pharaonic is. But I guess it depends on which Egyptian you ask.
In this patriotic song composed by Mohamed Abdul Wahab (an Egyptian) he's definitely identifying himself as an arab along with three other Egyptians, singers Abdel Halim Hafez, Fayda Kamel and Shadia, as well as a Lebanese singer, Sabah and an algerian..Warda.
If you read the the translated lyrics, the whole song is about their arab heritage and how proud they are of it.

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=z-rufSWw2aM"]YouTube - HISTORY- Seven Legends, One Song (English Subtitles)[/ame]

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

So true. I once unwittingly offended a family friend by calling him Arab, to which he responded "I'm not an Arab, I'm Egyptian!"

Egyptian culture 101: Egyptians are very proud of being Egyptian!

Copts in Egypt usually trace their lineage back to the Pharoahs.

In what we think of as "Arab" countries, people either claim Arab heritage so they aren't confused with the indigenous population (i.e., Berbers, etc.), or they claim indigenous heritage so they won't be confused with Arabs. Some of it is grounded in truth, some of it depends on what is in vogue, trends in persecution, religious ties, migratory patterns...a lot of things.

Originally Posted by kamilia

Copts in Egypt usually trace their lineage back to the Pharoahs.

In what we think of as "Arab" countries, people either claim Arab heritage so they aren't confused with the indigenous population (i.e., Berbers, etc.), or they claim indigenous heritage so they won't be confused with Arabs. Some of it is grounded in truth, some of it depends on what is in vogue, trends in persecution, religious ties, migratory patterns...a lot of things.

Yes, and in addition to the Copts (whose liturgical language was used by linguists to determine how the language of the hierogyphics was probably pronounced), the Nubians I've had conversations with are proud of being ethnic Nubians, feel solidarity with other Nubians over the destruction of their culture by the Aswan Dam, and feel pride in their belief that their pre-dam culture was still the lifestyle of the people of Pharaonic times. None of them self-identified as "Arab".

Originally Posted by shashadance

HI Laura, Thanks for the link! I have just read it. "Arab" used in the post seemed to generalized middle east/ egyptian as Arabs, which essentially shares the same definition as tamrahennatx mentioned above.

But geographically speaking, Arab is defined differently.

I am getting this right?

"Arabia" is different - ie relates specifically to the Arabic Penisula.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Yes, and in addition to the Copts (whose liturgical language was used by linguists to determine how the language of the hierogyphics was probably pronounced), the Nubians I've had conversations with are proud of being ethnic Nubians, feel solidarity with other Nubians over the destruction of their culture by the Aswan Dam, and feel pride in their belief that their pre-dam culture was still the lifestyle of the people of Pharaonic times. None of them self-identified as "Arab".

The guys I was talking with were Sa`iidi Muslims. Proud to be Muslim and proud to be Egyptian.

Just to add to the confusion, not all Egyptians are muslim, some are Christian and have no qualms about head coverings, dancing or food preferences!

Originally Posted by adiemusfree

Just to add to the confusion, not all Egyptians are muslim, some are Christian and have no qualms about head coverings, dancing or food preferences!

Actually the most rabid "all belly dancers are evil, immoral sluts" rave came from an Egyptian Copt woman. Go figga!

This thread has been a lesson to me in perspective. Never assume everyone anywhere with a shared community, a shared passport, or a shared birthplace is the same. Anecdotes and personal stories are really important and amazing, but are not gospel, and the next person's experience may read differently. Of course I know this: I travel internationally and I often have as little and as much in common with the other American next to me as I do with the local across from me.

Many of my Arab (broadest definition here!) friends here are gay, are artists, or are both, and several left their countries as official and political refugees for this very reason. So when they sit around and kvetch* it is often colored with a very painful memory of leaving home, of very mixed memories of home, of a sense of oppression everywhere they have been in the world, and of a feeling that they cannot ever go back home in the foreseeable future (literally in some cases--there is fear of imprisonment), or at least not as the men and women they have become while away. To many of them 'Arab' or 'Arabic' is associated not with the language shared and loved and taught an used for deepest expression, but with a sense of a lost history of artistic and social freedom over the last twenty years (many of them attribute it to the Saudi influence in all sorts of well-funded and heavy handed social projects all over the Middle East and North Africa as America and Britain were bombing Iraq).

Pan-Arabism as a movement pre-dated this. We will definitely see that reflected in the 1930s through 1960s artists, especially those who enjoyed state support.

I met a man on MUNI (our local transpo service) last week. I was really blatantly eavesdropping on a conversation him and this woman were having in Arabic. Both were in their 70s, she Tunisian** and he Lebanese. He and I wound up taking the same train and chatting (and having lunch with his wife, but that is another story!). He went on and on about how all Arabic speaking people are one and of one nation and need to come together outside of religion. His perspective was both radically different than my friends' mentioned above, but also in some ways really similar (it is hard being Middle Eastern in the US now, and there is a lot--okay some, when there are other things in common--of solidarity across nationalities and religion).

And this is just as anecdotal, I realize, and not gospel, and maybe even not true from *your* perspective. But for some annoying reason I keep coming back to this thread, and want us to be able to share our own stories and experiences without having to disagree--or without having to use them to disprove someone else's view.

--- --- ---
*oh hell yeah I just used Yiddish to describe it.

**While I am being all emo...I come from an Italian/Sicilian-American family very ashamed of their distant Tunisian background. Hell, half the time some of them are ashamed of the Sicilian. Sigh.

Originally Posted by adiemusfree

Just to add to the confusion, not all Egyptians are muslim, some are Christian and have no qualms about head coverings, dancing or food preferences!

They do have qualms about a lot of things. Honor killings, female genital mutilation and other horrible atrocities are still a problem in Christian populations. Some Christian families still have segregated weddings and do not let their women dance in public.

A lot of these problems mainly haunt rural Christians, but even some Christians in the city do not let their women drink in public and only perform certain dance moves (not joking). Even if many families are originally from Cairo, conservative attitudes can still be seen in the city due to migration from the rural areas.

Christians have strict attitudes about female modesty, too. Though this does not result in head coverings outside of church (except half-ass ones in the country that are more practical than anything), most women are barred from dressing à la prostituée lest it bring shame to the family. A whore is a whore is a whore: dancing for money is not smiled upon.

As for food, I agree: my Coptic fiancé traditionally eats pork ribs on Christmas and Easter (I'm thrilled that I can just take him to a barbecue joint every holiday). However, there are Christians around Egypt and other parts of Africa who do not eat pork.

I'm glad you met Christians without qualms ..g.:

Well said, Monica!

i was going to say the same, one of my students has an iranian boyfriend, and him and his family call bellydance "arabic" to make the distinction from "persian".


[QUOTE=*Shira*;81199]Yes, and a number of Persians I've spoken with refer to belly dance as "Arabic dance".
QUOTE]

I don't have anything to add to your post, Monica, but I wanted to say thanks for writing it. All good, important thoughts and beautifully phrased.

**Not really to do with the topic, but your second footnote rang a bell. My elderly Calabrese mamma is extremely resistant to the idea of anyone doing geneological research for fear that we will find out something scandalous about her family. Mostly it has to do with her idea that her father might have been born out of wedlock (oh, the horror), but if she fully realized the proximity of southern Italy to other countries and cultures and the possibility of cross-pollination, she'd be worried about that too. It's "bad enough" being from Calabria -- if our heritage turned out to be more complicated than that, her head might explode! I second your sigh.

staying on that thread, when i was studying at the european institute, there was a whole group of researchers there working on "mediterenean history", and they were arguing that "european" history is often an invention, and that the countries around the mediterenean have a lot more in common culturally, than sometimes the south or europe with the north. so they were looking at for example how small communities in morroco or tunis and italy, and how their agricultural practices, beliefs, family structure, etc were related or not... also about migration, intercultural exchange, commerce etc etc. led to some interesting discussions .

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

led to some interesting discussions .

I've been reading about this approach lately, and there's a lot to be said for it. Makes for an interesting change of perspective, anyway.

mostly a reminder not to impose todays political geography on the past...

Originally Posted by Zana

I've been reading about this approach lately, and there's a lot to be said for it. Makes for an interesting change of perspective, anyway.

Exactly.

Monica,
I thoroughly enjoyed your last post, very well said. Thanks!
And I also learned a new yiddish word yay! ..g.:


Regards
Priscilla...who is going to spend this rainy afternoon kvetching.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

staying on that thread, when i was studying at the european institute, there was a whole group of researchers there working on "mediterenean history", and they were arguing that "european" history is often an invention, and that the countries around the mediterenean have a lot more in common culturally, than sometimes the south or europe with the north. so they were looking at for example how small communities in morroco or tunis and italy, and how their agricultural practices, beliefs, family structure, etc were related or not... also about migration, intercultural exchange, commerce etc etc. led to some interesting discussions .

I wholeheartedly agree. These countries also share a fondness for machismo.

Originally Posted by jessedan

Lebanese DO speak arabic. There are certain words that are "Lebanese" but it's not a different language called Lebanese. It's Lebanese Arabic, for example a Leb and an Egyptian can understand each other quite well though their dialects are somewhat different.


Regards
Priscilla

Yes I know,I was kinda sarcastic but I wanted to know why that poster (forgot who) thought that Lebanese people dont speak Arabic...

I once knew a person who was Maranite and was really hardcore about his beliefs that he changed his name and wants to change the alphabet in Lebanon so it wouldnt be Arabic. I found him to be quite a toxic person full of hatred towards others. Lucky all maranites arnt all like that. My husbands boss was Maranite and he was the kindest guy.

Originally Posted by habibiyaeini

Yes I know,I was kinda sarcastic but I wanted to know why that poster (forgot who) thought that Lebanese people dont speak Arabic...

I once knew a person who was Maranite and was really hardcore about his beliefs that he changed his name and wants to change the alphabet in Lebanon so it wouldnt be Arabic. I found him to be quite a toxic person full of hatred towards others. Lucky all maranites arnt all like that. My husbands boss was Maranite and he was the kindest guy.

Non-Muslims suffer a lot of persecution in the Middle East. He might have been spiteful of people who had hurt him, and distrusting of others for that reason. It doesn't make toxicity right, but it might explain a little bit of it.

I knew that habibiyaeini...you mentioned once that you are syrian, so I figured you'd know what your neighbors speak.
Many Maronites are hardcacore about their beliefs and many are downright fanatical. Likely, it's due in part to the reasons Kamillia mentioned.
They tend to reject anything "arab" because they link arabness with muslim-ness. So they make a big deal about Christian Lebs being decended from the original inhabitants of Lebanon, the Phoenicians, rather than having emigrated from the arabian peninsula during the spread of Islam.
However, I read a recent study sponsored by National Geographic in Lebanon which found that most Lebanese people, (mainly those from the coastal areas) are descended from the Phoenecians....regardless of whether they are Christian or Muslim. So I guess that rained on their parade. ..g.:
My dad's family were all Maronites, but when they emigraged to South America there was no Maronite church. The closest they could find was the catholic church....so they just converted to catholicism. But I do remember my aunt Zahia being a bit over-zealous about her beliefs.

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by habibiyaeini

Yes I know,I was kinda sarcastic but I wanted to know why that poster (forgot who) thought that Lebanese people dont speak Arabic...

I once knew a person who was Maranite and was really hardcore about his beliefs that he changed his name and wants to change the alphabet in Lebanon so it wouldnt be Arabic. I found him to be quite a toxic person full of hatred towards others. Lucky all maranites arnt all like that. My husbands boss was Maranite and he was the kindest guy.

That was me who said Lebanese don't speak Arabic. My understanding (misinformed!) was that Lebanese was *like* Arabic but was a different dialect. Like, if you went to Quebec and said people in Quebec speak french. Many will tell you they do not, they speak Quebecois. And no offence intended - but Scots speak English, and the last Scottish person I met sounded like they were speaking an entirely different language, its was almost impossible for me to understand him! So forgive - Lebanese arabic and other dialects sound like different languages to me. I never claimed to be an expert. Thanks for the clarification!

Yeah, I describe myself as a Bellydancer. If asked, I'll be a bit more specific, but generally just say the dances come from the Middle East and surrounding regions. Most people aren't interested in knowing more than that. I gave up trying to educate people long ago.

Originally Posted by elljay

That was me who said Lebanese don't speak Arabic. My understanding (misinformed!) was that Lebanese was *like* Arabic but was a different dialect. Like, if you went to Quebec and said people in Quebec speak french. Many will tell you they do not, they speak Quebecois. And no offence intended - but Scots speak English, and the last Scottish person I met sounded like they were speaking an entirely different language, its was almost impossible for me to understand him! So forgive - Lebanese arabic and other dialects sound like different languages to me. I never claimed to be an expert. Thanks for the clarification!

Yeah, the Arabic dialects can sound like different languages to the point that one person from one country won't understand one from another, but somehow they're all considered Arabic. I think Moroccan is the least Arabic sounding one due to the heavy Spanish (and French??) influence, while the Syrian and Lebanese dialects are the closest to Modern Standard Arabic (MSA).

Originally Posted by Athallia

Yeah, the Arabic dialects can sound like different languages to the point that one person from one country won't understand one from another.

Yeah, the late Tahseen Alkoudsi (who did the majority of Arabic translations on my site at Middle Eastern Music: Translated Song Lyrics ) was originally from Syria. He snarled and gnashed his teeth a lot when I asked him to translate Aba'ad, which was sung by a Saudi Arabian vocalist. (It's the song most people think is titled Leyla Leyla.) Tahseen had a lot to say about the experience of trying to figure out what was being sung in the Gulf dialect, and none of it was happy! And yet he persevered and finished the translation for me. (He died about a year ago. I miss him!)

Hey thanks for the explaination ..g.: This whole issue is rather confusing as there are so many aspects to it. I really wanted to avoid this topic but couldnt quite help myself, lol, and Im no expert either ..g.:

Originally Posted by elljay

That was me who said Lebanese don't speak Arabic. My understanding (misinformed!) was that Lebanese was *like* Arabic but was a different dialect. Like, if you went to Quebec and said people in Quebec speak french. Many will tell you they do not, they speak Quebecois. And no offence intended - but Scots speak English, and the last Scottish person I met sounded like they were speaking an entirely different language, its was almost impossible for me to understand him! So forgive - Lebanese arabic and other dialects sound like different languages to me. I never claimed to be an expert. Thanks for the clarification!

Yeah, I describe myself as a Bellydancer. If asked, I'll be a bit more specific, but generally just say the dances come from the Middle East and surrounding regions. Most people aren't interested in knowing more than that. I gave up trying to educate people long ago.

Originally Posted by kamilia

Non-Muslims suffer a lot of persecution in the Middle East. He might have been spiteful of people who had hurt him, and distrusting of others for that reason. It doesn't make toxicity right, but it might explain a little bit of it.

Originally Posted by jessedan

I knew that habibiyaeini...you mentioned once that you are syrian, so I figured you'd know what your neighbors speak.
Many Maronites are hardcacore about their beliefs and many are downright fanatical. Likely, it's due in part to the reasons Kamillia mentioned.
They tend to reject anything "arab" because they link arabness with muslim-ness. So they make a big deal about Christian Lebs being decended from the original inhabitants of Lebanon, the Phoenicians, rather than having emigrated from the arabian peninsula during the spread of Islam.
However, I read a recent study sponsored by National Geographic in Lebanon which found that most Lebanese people, (mainly those from the coastal areas) are descended from the Phoenecians....regardless of whether they are Christian or Muslim. So I guess that rained on their parade. ..g.:
My dad's family were all Maronites, but when they emigraged to South America there was no Maronite church. The closest they could find was the catholic church....so they just converted to catholicism. But I do remember my aunt Zahia being a bit over-zealous about her beliefs.

Regards
Priscilla

Good point Kamilia, that makes a lot of sense.

Priscillia, this is a bit off topic but my parents once had this customer that came from Bagdad(this was way before 911) and he introduced himself as "Hi Im a Christian from Bagdad"

After that I noticed that alot of the Christian Iraqys were so over the top about proving they were Christian and not Muslim. I found it to be interesting because usually people here in Australia dont really gives a rats what religion you are.