Thread: Sandra and Michelle Joyce are Turkish-inspired?

Referencing Princess Farhana's blog post: THE THINKING GAL'S GUIDE TO BELLY DANCE STYLES.

She says toward the end: "There are many other American dancers who perform either straight Turkish or Turkish-influenced dancing such as Michelle Joyce, Sarah Skinner and Sandra."

I'm a newbie at all this, so what exactly is it about Sandra and Michelle Joyce that makes their dancing Turkish inspired? I haven't really seen many of the hallmarks of Turkish dance gestures that Princess Farhana mentions ("fists pounding onto the dancer’s hips, or the straighter, almost sharp arm positions used. Larger full-body moves are also showcased: earthy, pelvic-drop shimmies; quick torso-snaps and isolations, and spirited hair tossing. Floor work is also performed, and quite athletically.") in their performances, but am I either not picking up on it in the ones I've seen, or just haven't seen the right ones?

I'm very curious, so please enlighten me!

Hiya,

Just to clarify:


For Sarah Skinner you could start with her "I Love Turkish Bellydance DVD"
available here: ShakeMyDay.com Shop

And as for Michelle and Sandra, I guess you could say they are sort of pan-categorical: meaning they that without splitting hairs, they just perform straight up belly dance, and do it gorgeously. They are both hands-down terrific , beautiful dancers!
As for Turkish influence, Michelle & Sandra use veils far more than would be used in a "regular" Egyptian style show, but also not in a typical old-school American Cabaret way. Both favor Turkish costumes for stage almost exclusively.
Hope that helps. : )

Originally Posted by Alexa

I'm a newbie at all this, so what exactly is it about Sandra and Michelle Joyce that makes their dancing Turkish inspired? I haven't really seen many of the hallmarks of Turkish dance gestures that Princess Farhana mentions ("fists pounding onto the dancer’s hips, or the straighter, almost sharp arm positions used. Larger full-body moves are also showcased: earthy, pelvic-drop shimmies; quick torso-snaps and isolations, and spirited hair tossing. Floor work is also performed, and quite athletically.") in their performances, but am I either not picking up on it in the ones I've seen, or just haven't seen the right ones?

I was taught that the gestures and very "earthy" pelvic moves are characteristic of Turkish-Roman dance in particular, and it would be possible to be a Turkish-style dancer without the Roman elements. If you don't mind reconstituting the links (the automatic embedding was lost during the last upgrade), these two threads talk about distinguishing Turkish style when it doesn't have a strong Roman flavor, and how Turkish figures into the vintage American style:

Clips of Turkish Style dancers
American Cabaret vs. Turkish from the same era

I would call Sarah Skinner a perfect example of a New York dancer, a student of the old-school dancers who have Turkish roots, but her style shows a strong artistic, creative influence. Ayshe (also from NYC) has a great article in the Gilded Serpent, on how she and some her teachers and peers have developed, style-wise.

With that in mind, and my background in Turkish, I think that Sarah's DVD is unfortunately named. What she she teaches on it is not authentic Turkish dance, but rather two more Vintage Orientale-inspired choreographies to Turkish 9s. If one expects the former, the DVD is a disappointment, if one expects the latter, it is actually quite good.

Originally Posted by Alexa

I'm a newbie at all this, so what exactly is it about Sandra and Michelle Joyce that makes their dancing Turkish inspired?

I know that Michelle Joyce, at least, lived and performed in Istanbul and studied with Sema Yildiz.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I was taught that the gestures and very "earthy" pelvic moves are characteristic of Turkish-Roman dance in particular, and it would be possible to be a Turkish-style dancer without the Roman elements.

Si - I'm finding in my area, at least, many dancers hear "Turkish" and immediately think Turkish Roman. While the two are related, Turkish Oryantal and Turkish Roman are distinct from each other.

I've got a couple of articles of my own here,which talk about the two, and a bit about the differences:

What is Turkish Belly Dance?
Turkish Roman dance

I agree with Steffib. Sarah's DVD title choice is misleading, if not altogether wrong. It shows poor research skills. She's really cute but perhaps she made DVDs too early in her development as a dancer. Is this another example of student-teachers?

I see why Princess Farhana categorized Sandra and Michelle's dance style as Turkish-inspired for the reasons she clarified. There is no Romani styling but it has a modern Turkish flavour (think Didem) and also a hint of American Cabaret (a melting pot of dance styles).

I call their style "Bubblegum Bellydance" because of boppy smilely, go-go and poppy-locky nature of it. I understand that they do most of their restaurant gigs for Persians, who prefer fast, upbeat music (even more than a Lebanese crowd!). That doesn't leave a lot of room for slow, sensual, heartfelt dance (think Egpytian style) or savouring the beauty of that figure eight from BD 101 (Bahaia excels at this). As an Egyptian style dancer myself, I find their style took quick, gimicky and lacking in musicality but then again, I've mostly danced for Egyptians, Lebaneses (sp? ;-) and recently Greeks. Your audience, over time, can have a strong influence over the development of your style. Didn't Michelle also do some of her early training in Turkey?

That's my 2 cents but really, regardless of categories and names, you either like it, or you don't.

Just wanted to update and clarify that I in no way meant for my question to imply any sort of judgment on the dancing of Michelle or Sandra. I personally enjoy watching their dancing, as well as many other dancers of differing styles. I was just trying to understand what was said in Princess Farhana's article itself, as I am very new at this. Thanks to everyone who has chimed in to try to shed some light on things.

thanks for this thread from someone trained as American Cabaret w/ Turkish Armenian style. I am now learning Egyptian (for the last 5 years!!)---took me awhile to appreciate all the differences.

I didn't know about Elizabeth Strong---yeah---Turkish style in Tribal!!! i don't pay attention to most tribal cause it's not my thing( although i do like to watch improved ATS occasionally). BUT----now that i now dancers are bringing this stuff in~~ i'll pay more attention.

Dancing American cabaret w/ Turkish influence is separate from 9/8--that's my opinion. but when a 9/8 song comes into your set---you can dance to that also.

should have said "improvisational ATS"

i feel like, there's the vintage American style, then there's a modern American style that has a lot to do with the competition circuit and the hub-ub about Egyptian style, which all seems to have taken the heavily Turkish influenced Am Rest and then pushed it a bit more towards the Egyptian.

it's funny because after watching some clips from by dancers for dancers, including Sandra, during a movie night my teacher said "now we've seen a lot of Egyptian, here's some Turkish...." on the same lines i see Ruby and think "TURKISH!!!!", while my teacher sees Ruby and thinks "AMERICAN interpretation of Turkish". I usually watch Egyptian styling, while she has a focus more on Am Rest and Turkish.

i think many of these variations in style, especially in American dancers who are exposed to such a mixture of inspirations, are subtle enough that one's point of reference (strongly shaped by what they "grew up" in bellydance seeing) colors the style you see in someone who isn't 100% one style or another. what we see in a dancer's style is colored by what we're comparing them to.


I find Shems' article about the different styles (and the corresponding play lists!) incredibly helpful in sorting this all out. IMO watching each list a few times so that you can compare them to each other is the key to figuring out what's what. The advantage is that she knows her stuff and seeing lists that you can trust are one style or another will help you be able to "sort" clips on your own.

i also think it's worth mentioning, that we're all bellydancing, and while the histories and contexts sometimes vary, we're all using a similar movement vocabulary to express our human emotions. so while it's interesting to classify, and can help you understand things and pick workshops, don't get too worried about sorting people's style. we're not about to institute a bellydance apartheid. ^_~

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i think many of these variations in style, especially in American dancers who are exposed to such a mixture of inspirations, are subtle enough that one's point of reference (strongly shaped by what they "grew up" in bellydance seeing) colors the style you see in someone who isn't 100% one style or another. what we see in a dancer's style is colored by what we're comparing them to.

(...)

i also think it's worth mentioning, that we're all bellydancing, and while the histories and contexts sometimes vary, we're all using a similar movement vocabulary to express our human emotions. so while it's interesting to classify, and can help you understand things and pick workshops, don't get too worried about sorting people's style. we're not about to institute a bellydance apartheid. ^_~

So, so true. I especially agree with the bolded parts.

Totally agree w/ you raqFariha!

The blog post about identifying styles came about because so many people were asking me about the differences in specific genres of oriental dance, and I was trying to explain in a broad-stroke way what certain hallmarks of various styles were.

The post that is referred to in this thread is the first in a series, each will have a couple of different styles described...and in the first post ( and the ones to follow) I state that every dance style I'm describing is just quick way for newbies (or the curious) to find out about differentiation in the many styles.

One of the up-coming posts actually has a "category" I called "Middle Eastern Mix 'n' Match" which discusses exactly what you pointed out- how many dancers incorporate a variety of dance styles, costume styles and influences-due to their personal taste, what they picked up from their teachers, things they're experimenting with or steps that please them, dances tailored to/for specific audiences, etc. and how the end result is a pleasing "straight up" kind of belly dancing which is not entirely from any specific genre.

The second post in this continuing series will go up next week at
http://www.princessraqs.blogspot.com

: )

Originally Posted by Hala Jamal

I call their style "Bubblegum Bellydance" because of boppy smilely, go-go and poppy-locky nature of it. As an Egyptian style dancer myself, I find their style took quick, gimicky and lacking in musicality

Lol - we can hear you!
I don't really know how my own style comes off, but I don't think that describes Sandra's style at all

Originally Posted by michellejoyce

Lol - we can hear you!
I don't really know how my own style comes off, but I don't think that describes Sandra's style at all

I don't think you are "bubblegum bellydancer"!

But - guys - I also do not think that's a fair way to describe Turkish dance AT ALL.

There are indeed a lot of shallow Turkish dancers out there lately, many of whom are very good technically - but they are not representative at all of what's possible with the music and/or of the women I worked with, period.

Turkish music is awesome. There's no reason it should be bubblegum. It's up to the dancer to make it cook.

If a PERSON is a bubblegum person, well ok but that shouldn't be applied to an entire group of dancers.

You want Turkish Romani? Glad you asked. If this lady isn't, to me at least, the definition of Turkish ('cause she is), I don't know what else to say...

When I hear "bubblegum" I think of bad 60s pop music.

This:



doesn't track bubblegum to me at all.

Originally Posted by humdinger70

You want Turkish Romani? Glad you asked. If this lady isn't, to me at least, the definition of Turkish ('cause she is), I don't know what else to say...

She's very good but she doesn't represent ALL Turkish dancers. Turkish society is complicated. Not all Turks are Rom. Not all do that style music.

She is not an Oriental style Turkish dancer at all.

Also note, that during a performance the music generally changes. That is a 9/8 and she is indeed performing it in a lively manner, however she is not using zills which one does ALSO see and her hand movements are not characteristic of other styles of Turkish dance.

Plus, would one dance like this to a taxim?

Turkish dancers are no more easily or correctly stereotyped than Americans or Egyptians!

Here's another Turkish Turkish dancer - does she look like your video?

Here's another clip:



Note, this is pretty close to my default style although I almost always play zills.

Obviously one adapts to suit the music! so with Arabian music, yes the accents and breaks would be different because the rhythms are different and of course there are zillion types of Arabian music - so....

But it clearly isn't bubblegum in any case.

Example: Nesrin Topkapi performing raks assaya:



A dancer's nationality does not matter. The music matters.

Sometimes I enjoy these heated bhuz discussions.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

She's very good but she doesn't represent ALL Turkish dancers. Turkish society is complicated. Not all Turks are Rom. Not all do that style music.

She is not an Oriental style Turkish dancer at all.

I've seen Dilek dance enough to say she is also a Turkish Oriental style dancer and also usually has zills on...and knows first hand how complicated Turkish society is as she is Turkish and grew up there.

i can not respond... according to the blog , i "used to be" ! who knew?
if i no longer exist, i can say nothing..ha ha ha .

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

There were quite a few times watching this that I gasped, "that's Mom!"

Fun, fun, fun!

Thanks!

Deborah

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i feel like, there's the vintage American style, then there's a modern American style that has a lot to do with the competition circuit and the hub-ub about Egyptian style, which all seems to have taken the heavily Turkish influenced Am Rest and then pushed it a bit more towards the Egyptian.

it's funny because after watching some clips from by dancers for dancers, including Sandra, during a movie night my teacher said "now we've seen a lot of Egyptian, here's some Turkish...." on the same lines i see Ruby and think "TURKISH!!!!", while my teacher sees Ruby and thinks "AMERICAN interpretation of Turkish". I usually watch Egyptian styling, while she has a focus more on Am Rest and Turkish.

i think many of these variations in style, especially in American dancers who are exposed to such a mixture of inspirations, are subtle enough that one's point of reference (strongly shaped by what they "grew up" in bellydance seeing) colors the style you see in someone who isn't 100% one style or another. what we see in a dancer's style is colored by what we're comparing them to.


I find Shems' article about the different styles (and the corresponding play lists!) incredibly helpful in sorting this all out. IMO watching each list a few times so that you can compare them to each other is the key to figuring out what's what. The advantage is that she knows her stuff and seeing lists that you can trust are one style or another will help you be able to "sort" clips on your own.

i also think it's worth mentioning, that we're all bellydancing, and while the histories and contexts sometimes vary, we're all using a similar movement vocabulary to express our human emotions. so while it's interesting to classify, and can help you understand things and pick workshops, don't get too worried about sorting people's style. we're not about to institute a bellydance apartheid. ^_~

it's funny because after watching some clips from by dancers for dancers, including Sandra, during a movie night my teacher said "now we've seen a lot of Egyptian
agree

Just add a bit more about why it can be difficult to define what makes Turkish dance: Like with Egyptian, with Turkish as well, it is important to consider time. Today's dancers are different from Nesrin Topkapi. We also have to take into account that some of her stylistic choices were made at that time not necessarily to represent the essence of Turkish dance, but rather to put on the best possible show she could under the circumstances. While we're looking at what's "typical", it may also be interesting to consider Didem - her grueling performance schedule forces her to do whatever she can find do keep things interesting for the general public, and many of her pieces are not all that Turkish (although her Roman is a delight). So, the discussion of what is and is not Turkish can actually be quite complicated, and as a living art, it's changing.

But, just to have the last word ;-) ;-) the essence of Turkish dance is Tulay Karaca.

I wanted to add that I don't consider myself to be Turkish style, though, to my surprise, I have had a lot of people contact me and suggest that I do a Turkish style DVD! So I guess there are people out there who think that I am. Very early on in my career I was living in Istanbul and studying with Sema Yeldiz, so who knows, maybe people are seeing a faint glimmer of that.

Both me and Sandra have spent a fair amount of time in Istanbul and have taken in a lot of Turkish dancing. But I don't think either of us would actually define ourselves as Turkish style.

Speaking for myself, I usually tell people that I am Modern American Cabaret style that has been influenced by competition dancing.... whatever that means!

Originally Posted by michellejoyce

......
Speaking for myself, I usually tell people that I am Modern American Cabaret style that has been influenced by competition dancing.... whatever that means!

yay! i guessed right!

Originally Posted by Alexa

Referencing Princess Farhana's blog post: THE THINKING GAL'S GUIDE TO BELLY DANCE STYLES.

She says toward the end: "There are many other American dancers who perform either straight Turkish or Turkish-influenced dancing such as Michelle Joyce, Sarah Skinner and Sandra."

I'm a newbie at all this, so what exactly is it about Sandra and Michelle Joyce that makes their dancing Turkish inspired? I haven't really seen many of the hallmarks of Turkish dance gestures that Princess Farhana mentions ("fists pounding onto the dancer’s hips, or the straighter, almost sharp arm positions used. Larger full-body moves are also showcased: earthy, pelvic-drop shimmies; quick torso-snaps and isolations, and spirited hair tossing. Floor work is also performed, and quite athletically.") in their performances, but am I either not picking up on it in the ones I've seen, or just haven't seen the right ones?

I'm very curious, so please enlighten me!

when michelle started "project belly dance", i asked on bhuz why the styles were "limited"..my word.
she answered that her fav style is egyptian compition..so, i would assume that is her style...i find the " by dancers for dancers" all egyptian..why?...music, veil intro, no zills...costume...that to me is egyptian in a nut shell...i know there is more to it.
btw, i prefer to be called "old school".

Originally Posted by michellejoyce

I wanted to add that I don't consider myself to be Turkish style, though, to my surprise, I have had a lot of people contact me and suggest that I do a Turkish style DVD! So I guess there are people out there who think that I am. Very early on in my career I was living in Istanbul and studying with Sema Yeldiz, so who knows, maybe people are seeing a faint glimmer of that.

Both me and Sandra have spent a fair amount of time in Istanbul and have taken in a lot of Turkish dancing. But I don't think either of us would actually define ourselves as Turkish style.

Speaking for myself, I usually tell people that I am Modern American Cabaret style that has been influenced by competition dancing.... whatever that means!

thanks for this. i do not agree, but it makes things clearer.to me, your style is not amcab, because you do not tie a veil...you enter with it. i do not know if you zill or feel floor, but that would fit amcab. i prefer to be called "old school".
thanks again.

Originally Posted by Lesedi

Sometimes I enjoy these heated bhuz discussions.

i love your popcorn dude!