Thread: Why do we compare belly dance with ballet?

Originally Posted by mafadalo

I ask myself this question all the time why do dancers compare belly dance to ballet? Why not to another ethnic dance form like flamenco or Kathak instead? They also have rigorous training and discipline, however they have something that belly dance doesn't have which is support from within their own culture.

If we are talking GP, I've met very few people who have actually done ballet at all as in Australia, you have to have a lot of money to even contemplate having your kids do it and they would really, really have to love it for you to put up with the expense. If anything, ballet has often been made fun of as it is seen as something very elitist - do we want belly dance to end up in the same situation? I know, it's made fun of for other reasons but why do people really believe that the average GP respects ballet?

Mini rant - I'm finding in most modern Western belly dancers who have ballet training, most of the time they look like ballerinas in bedlahs. It's interesting to note, my first teacher who was ballet trained had all the ballet beaten out of her belly dancing so to speak, now almost 20 years later, you're almost not a belly dancer if you don't have some sort of ballet training. That's a shame as I can't stand ballet, I think it's the most boring dance in existence, and I believe belly dance can stand on its own without the need for balletic training or technique - end rant.

Have to agree about Ballet being boring, I was so disappointed when I saw a professional ballet production of Romeo and Juliet. There was no grace at all! Couple that with the banging and grunts of the dancers leaping about with grotesque limbs covered in bruises, and my love of ballet disappeared completely. Now don't get me wrong, I admire their physical strength and superiority, these are people who train DAMN hard. But the beauty and romance just wasn't there for me. A couple of years later I came across bellydance and fell in love with it's softness and grace. I still believe the best dancers are the ones who make it seem so effortless! That said, I like to use ballet style exercises in my classes as they can help strengthen muscles and protect against injury (because honestly some choreographies are not entirely dance safe... Yes I am looking at you Dr Mo!)

So in comparing the dances I only compare the training, in specific the strengthening exercises as I am unaware (correct me if I'm wrong) of any specific to bellydance exercises that work on strengthening your core and foundation as well as places like ankles to protect from injury. The beauty of belly dance is that it has taken from so many places so I don't think that adding a little ballet pointing of the toe is a bad thing, but at the end of the day they are entirely different styles of dance.

Originally Posted by Blue Ree Artisan

because honestly some choreographies are not entirely dance safe... Yes I am looking at you Dr Mo.

I'm curious - what did he do that raised this? I've done over 100 hours with Dr Mo and I've never come across anything he's done that isn't safe - and I'm a safety nazi along with many of my friends who attended his classes. Hard - yes. Tiring - yes. Challenging if your fitness is not up to it - yes. But never unsafe.

I should say that if ballet is your thing that's great, I don't deny that there are benefits to learning exercises that can benefit our strength and flexibility in the dance, I just have an issue when a dance that is really not about athleticism is becoming more athletic and only about athleticism, I think we are in danger in making this dance very rigid.

To me that is one of the greatest things about BD, that it isn't rigid, there is a lot of space for your personality, emotions, etc. I'm not only dancing to someone else's choreography, I can if I want, or dance to my own or even better improvise, can't really do that in ballet (I assume you can't)!

Another thing I wonder is why do people swap from ballet to belly dance and then spend much of their energy trying to make it look more balletic? Adult ballet classes exist now where obviously people won't be performing but for people who love ballet can still carry on doing the exercises and maybe every once in a while a student recital. Why not do that instead?

Personally, I think the majority of GP is very ignorant about dance, any dance, Western or ethnic, and as most of us hang around other dancers, I think we sometimes forget that non dancers of any sort, their only dance education extends to So You Think You Can Dance, X Factor, etc.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I'm curious - what did he do that raised this? I've done over 100 hours with Dr Mo and I've never come across anything he's done that isn't safe - and I'm a safety nazi along with many of my friends who attended his classes. Hard - yes. Tiring - yes. Challenging if your fitness is not up to it - yes. But never unsafe.

A choreography I learnt quite a few years ago called Ana Ho. It involved a straight legs together backwards jump, torso bent forward hands out in front. Very hard to make sure your knees do not lock at the landing. (especially is you have big boobs and are not balanced) One of mine did during a performance and I now have a greatly mishapen and painful right knee because of it :( What kills me is that right at the start I said that move wasn't safe but I carried on learning anyway. Oh wells, I don't like his style much so it's not issue anymore (except when I try to climb stairs) lol.

Originally Posted by mafadalo

I should say that if ballet is your thing that's great, I don't deny that there are benefits to learning exercises that can benefit our strength and flexibility in the dance, I just have an issue when a dance that is really not about athleticism is becoming more athletic and only about athleticism, I think we are in danger in making this dance very rigid.

While I'm a proponent of ballet as cross-training, I don't want it to get to a point where you need to have been doing ballet from an early age in order to ever be a good belly dancer. I'm afraid it's starting to happen already, though (in some places more than others).

I hope it's a trend that won't continue and worsen. In that sense, I appreciate those of you who are adamantly against ballet training and who refuse to take it as a matter or principle. Although I disagree, I believe you all play a necessary role in keeping a balance, keeping ballet influences in check, and staying true to the essence of belly dance.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Yes, ballet is generally respected, especially in comparison to belly dance. However, I think some of us do overestimate the GP's perception of ballet. I'm sure a lot of non-dancers do realize it takes a lot of training to be a professional ballet dancer, but very few people have an idea of just how much. Most people have no idea just how hard ballet is.

I think we also might be overestimating the esteem in which the GP holds ballet dancers. To draw on a couple of pop culture examples, in the most recent Batman movie, Bruce Wayne buys out all the seats at a ballet performance so that the dancers can come lounge in their bathing suits on his yacht being decorative instead of performing their art. The implication for me was that whether they are performing on stage or being human decor, their bodies being available for purchase looms larger than their use of those bodies to produce art. The other, perhaps more obvious one is the movie The Black Swan, in which dancers are either (crazy) virgins or (crazy) whores, hardworking and longsuffering to be sure but decidedly not normal or admirable people. And of course they all hate other women, and do whatever the man in power over them tells them to.

Just a couple of examples, but it's enough for me to think that the GP perception of ballet dancers is not as uncomplicated as one might suppose.

In this country, ballet is like opera. If you say you enjoy it and support it financially, you're considered "sophisticated." Or I guess it's more like vegetables. People eat grilled cauliflower because they know they're "Supposed To" because it's good for you. The Performing Arts are "good for you" but to a lot of Americans, they're as palatable as grilled cauliflower.

People send their kids to ballet class because they think it makes them appear to be educated, intellectual, and sophisticated.

In my town, the same people who "simply AhDOOORE the BAH-let" are the same ones sleeping through it.

Originally Posted by aziyade

In this country, ballet is like opera. If you say you enjoy it and support it financially, you're considered "sophisticated." Or I guess it's more like vegetables. People eat grilled cauliflower because they know they're "Supposed To" because it's good for you. The Performing Arts are "good for you" but to a lot of Americans, they're as palatable as grilled cauliflower.

People send their kids to ballet class because they think it makes them appear to be educated, intellectual, and sophisticated.

In my town, the same people who "simply AhDOOORE the BAH-let" are the same ones sleeping through it.

Those are the 'ballet moms' who really drive me nuts. Ballet hour for the kiddies is social hour for the moms- and I can't get my kid through the dressing room because they're too busy gabbing to notice their kid throwing a fit in front of them because she needs help tying her shoe. Gah.

(I do like ballet- we have a couple very good companies here who do a wonderful job. I also admit that I like watching men in tights. Sigh.)

I have to say I'm a little saddened by a lot of the Ballet bashing in this thread. I grew up a dancer & take pride in all of the styles I have studied - even if they weren't my cup of tea, they made me stronger

I know not everyone likes it, but it give us a basic terminology that we can use in BD dance to explain movement (like landing a jump in plié so the knees aren't damaged at a Dr Mo workshop)

Personally I feel the comparison serves as a point of reference for training. To be good Ballet dancer you train your butt off - same goes for this dance. We have amazing Oreintal and Tribal dancers out there & they all have one thing in common - they have trained long & hard to be that good. As said before by so many in this thread, ballet is the most well known & its vocabulary is used across the western dance disciplines (Jazz, modern, contemporary, ect...)

As for me, I still go to a few Ballet classes here & there (& the occasional hip-hop class). I love going to dance classes (plus I teach BD classes 4 days a week & perform in clubs/restaurants and still go to a adv BD class on Saturdays just cause Im nuts). I do a ton of core training so I can stay strong. I also love Yoga. I do this for myself and I don't preach that BD'ers should take ballet. For me I like having a strong core as it makes it easier for me not only in dance but just walking up the stairs or picking up a 18 lb cat...

We don't have to like ballet but we should acknowledge it serves as a valuable tool by way of providing a common language

Originally Posted by Blue Ree Artisan

A choreography I learnt quite a few years ago called Ana Ho. It involved a straight legs together backwards jump, torso bent forward hands out in front. Very hard to make sure your knees do not lock at the landing. (especially is you have big boobs and are not balanced).

Ouch - we did that choreo - and I still use the jump back. Never occurred to me it could be a problem as it must have been all those years of jazz - I never land with locked knees (and yes, I'm top heavy).

Originally Posted by magdelenam

I have to say I'm a little saddened by a lot of the Ballet bashing in this thread. I grew up a dancer & take pride in all of the styles I have studied - even if they weren't my cup of tea, they made me stronger

I haven't seen a lot of ballet bashing, and if any of my comments can be construed that way I apologize, it was not my intent. I like watching ballet. My kids watch ballet. I think others are entitled to say they don't find it appealing, or even find it boring without that being considered bashing. From *inside* the ballet community, I have been frustrated with some of the attitudes of various contingents, but I've tried to make it clear it is those specific people I have issues with, not ballet as a whole.

Ballet is not the only discipline which can give you good core strength- it is the foundation for *certain* Western dance forms, but not all, and is not *necessary* to excel in other dance forms- even in Western dance forms like tap, depending on your goals & focus. That's not ballet bashing either. The only other 'bashing' type comments I have seen are quotes heard from members of the public, and I think they were put in to demonstrate that even ballet is not understood as well as we'd like to think.

Gotta go- SYTYCD is on!

So can we all agree to disagree w/o singling anyone out please?
I dont quote as I do not wish to offend or attack - actually that's the reason I dont post to these threads very often...

I am a little surprised that no one had a rebuttal to Blue Ree's experience at "Romeo and Juliet." Personally I can't imagine a performance like that, unless it was the same sort of "professional" troupe as the belly dancers who show up in mismatched costumes and amateurishly clop through ill-rehearsed choreographies. I've never heard of a competent, professional ballet dancer who would go onstage with visible bruises (that's what stage-quality concealer makeup is for), and it seems extremely unlikely that anyone with even a minimum level of talent and training would thump around that gracelessly and loudly (although, there's only so much you can do if you're dancing on a stage with bad acoustics). When I was taking piano lessons as a kid we routinely walked through the part of the conservatory where the ballet studios were en route to the piano wing, and even during practices without music, none of the ballet students were thudding and grunting. The aesthetic of ballet depends on being able to conceal any uncouth traces of physical distress or effort. Whatever Blue Ree saw, it might have been boring, but technique-wise, it was definitely not what anyone should be calling professional-caliber ballet.

Let's be honest: As belly dancers, we'd be a lot less threatened by ballet if it weren't for the fact that very few of our top successful teachers/performers have been able to reach that level with only MED training. When the subset of our prestigious dancers is almost entirely in the subset of dancers who've also studied years of ballet, it says something about what's lacking in our education system. For whatever reason, just studying this dance is usually not sufficient to turn raw student material into a polished product. Ballet is giving students better tools for learning, practicing, and performing than we do. They're doing something we aren't that makes a huge difference in how dance gets implemented with a body, something that transfers even when you take the turnout and tutus away.

There are really two issues at stake: the discipline you are habituated to in your education, and the physical awareness behind strong, graceful movement. As a general policy, we do a shoddy job at both. The garden-variety belly dance teacher will not impose a traditional system with lots of drilling and personalized assessments of progress on students, because those things aren't "fun" and she's catering to a population who prioritizes the recreational/social aspects of the class. There's also a strong chance that if she only trained within our community, or even worse, is self taught, she won't understand the mechanical issues behind good dancing (posture, muscular intention, meaningful breathing) very well in the context of her own dancing, much less how to go about teaching it, because she didn't receive good education or personal critique on those things when she was a student.

[Continued...]

We don't need to "be" ballet--with their obsessive schools of thought and their years of rigorous practice that nearly destroy their dancers' bodies--but we could do a better job than we do, even with a population of primarily adult hobbyists. It starts by teachers telling students, "You are paying me to help you become the best dancer you can. It doesn't matter from my end if that means someday you'll be dancing on the Nile Maxim or if you'll be doing one number a year in a local student show. I am bound by my professional reputation to guide you in maximizing your potential, and sometimes that means working on skills that help you grow as a dancer but aren't always the most enjoyable. If you choose not to do these things, then make that decision knowing you're only hurting yourself, and I don't have to indulge you with promotions and performance opportunities. And if you do choose to commit to doing these things properly and regularly, I can guarantee that you will be more pleased with your progress and you'll feel these classes are a better value for your money."

Maybe part of this argument boils down to the idea that the public expects ballet to involve practice. If you tell someone you've signed up for an adult ballet class, they don't picture "Swan Lake." They picture rows of bodies in black leotards at a barre going through some series of movements, "One and two and three and four and one and two and three and four..." An adult hobbyist going into ballet expects to do that kind of work. What does the average person on the street think goes on in a belly dance class? Based on the sorts of misinformed questions that new students frequently ask, do we even want to speculate?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I am a little surprised that no one had a rebuttal to Blue Ree's experience at "Romeo and Juliet." Personally I can't imagine a performance like that, unless it was the same sort of "professional" troupe as the belly dancers who show up in mismatched costumes and amateurishly clop through ill-rehearsed choreographies. I've never heard of a competent, professional ballet dancer who would go onstage with visible bruises (that's what stage-quality concealer makeup is for), and it seems extremely unlikely that anyone with even a minimum level of talent and training would thump around that gracelessly and loudly (although, there's only so much you can do if you're dancing on a stage with bad acoustics).

• I've seen R&J where Juliet was played by a 67-year-old dancer. It was her AD retirement piece, and COMPLETELY inappropriate. But her family gave $$$$$ to the company and orchestra so ...
  
  
• I've seen Swan Lake sans the 32 fouettes because the dancer said "Oh that's so cheesy and hearing the audience "count" the turns takes away the magic," which I might agree with, except for the fact that in our region NOBODY counts the turns out loud, and it was quite well known by other company members that said dancer was actually incapable of performing all 32 of them.
  
  
• The old stage for Louisville Ballet was horrendous as far as sound, and the AD at the time encouraged a technique where the female dancers had to have shoes that were stiffer and harder than what was the "norm" for New York dancers and everyone else. So ANY ballet they put on that had somewhat quiet music, or lulls in the louder parts of the music, would be accompanied by the sound of quite loud thumping from the less-broken, stiffer pointe shoes. My mom was a season subscriber to LB and the IU ballet, and she always HATED that about LB. "Thumpy" is a great description.
  
  
• Barishnikov performed modern dance with the White Oaks Dance Project wearing visible bandaids on his feet. Not quite a bruise, but does destroy some of that magic, I guess.

All of the above happened with respected, regional, repertory ballet companies in the Midwest. If my introduction to ballet had been with that particular Romeo and Juliet I mentioned, I can see how that would lead to a very unfavorable opinion of ballet in general.

Once again, Tourbeau- I can only hope you are painting with too broad a stroke. We may not be top, nationally recognized dancers here, but I can vouch for the quality and integrity of the instruction that happens in our town and it does not resemble what you are talking about in any way, shape or form. I do think you can comment on problems without implying that there are NO good belly dance teachers and that none of us have a considered methodology.

Originally Posted by Lara L

Once again, Tourbeau- I can only hope you are painting with too broad a stroke. We may not be top, nationally recognized dancers here, but I can vouch for the quality and integrity of the instruction that happens in our town and it does not resemble what you are talking about in any way, shape or form. I do think you can comment on problems without implying that there are NO good belly dance teachers and that none of us have a considered methodology.

I understand what you're saying, Lara, and I agree that there is a certain amount of breadth in Tourbeau's post, but I can vigorously nod my head in agreement about several of the points made, especially when considering that this is a thread on comparing belly dance with ballet.

I look at my own students. Love them. 99% of them take their first class series on a lark, because their friends asked them to, or out of curiosity; IOW, they are in class for recreation. I don't have statistics, but I'd say that folks over 40 make up at least half of my student base at any given time. And whether 40 or over or between 16 and 39, only about 25-30% have any dance background to which they will admit -- and the majoritiy of those experiences were as children.

Like Lara, I have considered my methodology: my program is designed for students to enter at the beginning of any session and to have completed my syllabus of movement vocabulary within 6-8 session or so. Each session includes new material and 3-4 movements from the previous session. As we all know, you can't do something five times for 10 minutes each time and expect to have it mastered, so most students require a year or more at the beginning level before they have the requisite comfort with their vocabulary to advance to intermediate. And, of course, they are not intermediates when they enter that level -- rather, they are advanced beginners who will become intermediates. And any timeline is completely dependent upon the natural ability of, dedicated practice time of, and additional classes that might be taken by, the student.

One of the most profound -- and delightful -- comments I have ever heard from one of my students was blurted out one day as we finished up a drill section: "Wow, this takes real technique!" Although I say that same thing all the time in different ways, I think it was good for the rest of the class to hear it from a fellow student. I felt so vindicated that day.

(continued)

(continued)

Although I remember that comment with fondness, I think it is indicative of the student base with which most teachers work. I seriously wonder if folks come to my advertised-as-a-dance-class-for-adults thinking something besides *learning to dance* will take place. Of course we have fun. We joke a bit and have a good time, but all within the confines of a *real* dance class. You know -- with, like, technique, posture and drills and stuff.

Just like ballet.

If after a certain period of time and training, people want to get on a stage -- any stage -- they should be properly prepared to where they are in their dance education.

Just like ballet.

One significant difference between ballet and BD is this: in ballet, there really aren't very many opportunities to dance solo -- or with a group for that matter -- outside the confines of a school/teacher-controlled environment. There simply are no venues for that. *BD is completely different.* There is really nothing a BD teacher can do if a student decides he/she needs to be on the big festival stage 6 months after spotty attendance in beginner lessons.

And yes, we are preaching to the choir, so to speak, here on Bhuz when we talk about teaching methodologies, expectations and the like, but I think it's helpful for anyone reading -- teachers and students alike -- to know the quality of instruction that is available out there. Maybe discussions like these will inspire some teachers to really up their games and some students to seek out better teachers.

Just hopin'.

Deborah

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Maybe part of this argument boils down to the idea that the public expects ballet to involve practice. If you tell someone you've signed up for an adult ballet class, they don't picture "Swan Lake." They picture rows of bodies in black leotards at a barre going through some series of movements, "One and two and three and four and one and two and three and four..." An adult hobbyist going into ballet expects to do that kind of work. What does the average person on the street think goes on in a belly dance class? Based on the sorts of misinformed questions that new students frequently ask, do we even want to speculate?

Spot on.

Also as someone mentioned earlier ballet students would also be expected to know about history, famous works and dancers and music. Some teachers are short changing their students by offering a social exercise and personal expression class and calling it a dance class.

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

I think comparing belly dance to ballet works in certain situations because the rigorous training for ballet is really well known to dancers and non dancers alike.

This is exactly the point I try to make. Not to compare it as a "belly dance is just like ballet" comparison, but in the context of it takes training...

From a student perspective, I find myself really agreeing with Torbeau - whereas there are certainly some great teachers out there who do work on the 'fundamentals' of dance as well as specific bellydance moves, they don't seem to be in the majority and not everyone is lucky enough to have one of them in their area. And a lot of the remainder have barely any concept of things that seem to be considered central to most other dance forms - posture and body alignment (beyond exhortations to tuck the pelvis to varying degrees), quality of movement, use of space... This is deeply frustrating, because all these things are important to become a really good bellydancer, but they seem to so often be overlooked, and the dancers that do have this element of physical awareness and artistry seem to often get it somewhere other than regular bellydance classes

I've been thinking about this a lot today actually, as I've just bought a number of books on dance anatomy, use of imagery and choreograhic composition to try to fill some of the gaps in what I get from classes - and then went to a hafla last night where I saw an awful lot of unengaging plodding around which barely seemed like dancing at all so much as some kind of surreal puppet show (though thankfully also a couple of great and inspiring performances which made the whole thing worthwhile in the end).

I wonder (sorry, rambling musings ahead...) whether part of the problem is down to cultural differences in body awareness between western dancers and native ME dancers? We in the West tend to have a particular lack of physical awareness and bad posture that's ingrained in our culture (as well as often profound social awkwardness here in England) - whereas in the ME this seems to be less of an issue, and many ordinary people have the poise and balance to carry objects on their heads etc. So maybe we are seeing a difference between dance forms that evolved in the West where dancers have always needed to be explicitly taught these things, and ME dance where in its past development posture and attitude may have been far more of a given.

Just another thought -- on the image of a ballet class:

I doubt there is anyone out there who doesn't picture ballet class as going on for at least several years. There isn't really an "introduction to ballet" program at most schools.

Compare that to our typical classes, which are what ? 4-12 week sessions? People think they have learned everything they need to learn in 12 weeks, and now they have "done" bellydance.

It's a false dichotomy. What we like about ballet is its structure. What a lot of Oriental dancers have always feared about teaching our dance is creating a structure.

Very interesting thread,thanks for all thoughts it raised!

I immediatly think of my first teacher,because she mentioned ballet several times in about these words:
"Would a ballet dancer stop practising her basic technique because she found them too basic and boring?No,so practise your technique until it´s in your muscle memory"
&
"Would a ballet dancer take classes for 3 months,buy costumes and then go audience at the Bolshoi Theatre?"
But her wish was not for her students to take ballet instead,she wanted us to go closer to the subject of bellydance with respect for traditions,structure in training etc

So shortly:Good dance Takes Time&Effort.

I´m a dancer who has never studied *anything* outside the oriental world,and watched the dancers with previous dance rigorous training experience run circles around me when learning choreos,spinning,posture...not to mention the more acrobatic movements(splits,backbends,you can imagine)

I have a colleague(Agnes Gagge) who has been practising various forms of bellydance&folklore,indian styles,silk road styles PLUS ATS and fusion since she was 14.
She makes me identify myself with Salieri in the "Amadeus"movie;everything comes so easy to her..she´s a natural.

Im not.*le sigh*

I practice to be a better bellydancer&bellydance teacher and it takes takes ...
Time&Effort.
(fallen into bed the last months too tired to Bhuz,can you imagine!;)

OT but:
of course I believe it can help your bellydance to have experience from dancing that can be for example ballet,or kathak,or khon-but much more so a PASSION for the music,and enjoyment of learning by watching great dancers...

The format of Youtube is amazing in many ways,but it has changed how those who wish to watch bellydance take in new info-
IMHO the perception of what "good bellydance"has changed drastically from for example:strength of personality,
taste in picking his/her music,
merging with the musicians,
projection of feeling and temper,
audience contact,
humour,
tempo changes being important besides from *the actual dancing* into a:
Gymnastic Short Distance Athletic Sport.
I would have to hold some of my students at gunpoint to get them to watch a whole nightclub show or an "old school"routine without touching the FFW-button when it gets ,"slow","boring"or hearing "she´s just using the same steps over and over"

...being a diehard bellydance fan also takes Time&Effort


Edited to add:I think y´all can read between the lines what happened last week:
tried to show students the DVD"Legends of Bellydance 1947-1976"...all while some were arguing who was the best bellydancer ever-Didem or Sadie?

I skimmed through this thread so I may have missed something. Some of my views have been expressed. I love ballet but the original questions were why belly dancers always compare belly dance to ballet and why that is or is not fair.

Personally, I understand why people do it. They/we want or crave legitimacy but lately, I have grown tired of seeking so much validation from the GP who may not understand what it is that we do. I do not like seeing belly dance westernized, I feel like it takes away all that I love about it. I also love that belly dance can be an emersive experience in a way that Classical Dances usually are not. I don't know if this is my own growth as a dancer or if it's really just not caring anymore. lol

A side note, and a bit off the main topic perhaps... but ballet began as one form, and has been fractured and refined in several different directions to the point where it is codified and standardized in a very strong, very stylized movement vocabulary. I am sorry to say that we will probably never know the origins of the dance intimately, and be able to picture it in our minds. What we value in ballet is the standardization of the training, and the regard it has earned from the general public... not its historical beginnings.
What we know of bellydance, in all its forms, is that though it has changed from its initial structure, and we can't truly say we know where it began or how either, it is largely based in folk customs and traditions that have allowed it to flourish and change organically, partially (I think) due to the LACK of patronage from royals and dignitaries who demanded it performed for them in a certain way, as happened with ballet. If Middle Eastern dance were codified to French standards as ballet was, would we be happy?
I don't think the comparisons between the two are necessarily meant to slight one or the other... most of the time. But in the back and forth of the matter, I have to look at the evolution of these arts, and the very different paths they've taken, and say that perhaps because ballet's roots are less discussed, we seem to rarely take in the differences in the long view.
In yet another comparison, I appreciate the training that is standardized in ballet- and that the training for bellydance allows us to dance into our 50s, 60s, 70s, and farther, if our bodies will allow. I appreciate the recognition that ballet gets from its years of formal patronage of the aristocracy- and the organic quality of bellydance that allows dancers to seek their own expression within the various forms of this dance, without asking Louis XIV's opinion. I honestly appreciate the refinement of ballet, and the discipline that goes into it- and just as honestly appreciate the earthiness of bellydance, and discipline that can go with it.
However, I am quite glad that our dance has taken the path that it has. Because frankly, I don't think any of us would have quite fallen in love with it the way we have if not for its present diversity, and its life force as we know it and can experience it. Ballet represents discipline and refinement and for many people respect, yes. But bellydance has my heart because it is organic. It has a mutability that allows it to change and still stay the same, and it allows us the opportunity to create it every time we dance, instead of just performing it.
Sorry if I'm a bit off topic... just another thought about apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

..., but Jon made fun of him by calling him a "weak little ballerina" or something of the sort... as if ballerina was the best example he could give of a stereotypical weakling.

When Rihanna came out with her umbrella video which features a few seconds of her walking around wearing black pointe shoes, there was outrage on a dance forum I was reading, one of the reasons was because some ballet dancers felt Rihanna was giving the impression that anyone can just put on some pointe shoes and walk around, and that this was bad because it reinforces (yes, reinforces!) the GP's idea that ballet is easy!!! Their words, not mine (paraphrased, of course). You'd think you were in bizaro world where bhuz became a ballet forum.

That impression on the forum and on tv is sooo far from what I'd say the general public makes of ballet in my impression.. at least where I live ballet is epitomized as incredibly, incredibly difficult and ballerinas would be referred to as bones&muscles ("muscle packages" you'd hear often), nothing else (the general public imo would not be surprised if a ballerina made a dare out of cracking nuts open with her thighs - or toes, who knows!)

interesting to know what happened on that american tv show.. it could be connected to Europe to my impression being a little more "ballet inclined" than the USA.. I hear ballet being made fun of on every American sitcom (not as something easy, though, but as something boring, womanly, artsy, not for the "real man" who loves to watch his action movies etc)

Originally Posted by dinavienna

That impression on the forum and on tv is sooo far from what I'd say the general public makes of ballet in my impression.. at least where I live ballet is epitomized as incredibly, incredibly difficult and ballerinas would be referred to as bones&muscles ("muscle packages" you'd hear often), nothing else (the general public imo would not be surprised if a ballerina made a dare out of cracking nuts open with her thighs - or toes, who knows!)

interesting to know what happened on that american tv show.. it could be connected to Europe to my impression being a little more "ballet inclined" than the USA.. I hear ballet being made fun of on every American sitcom (not as something easy, though, but as something boring, womanly, artsy, not for the "real man" who loves to watch his action movies etc)

I think part of the American image of ballet is due to the expectation that I see that *every* little girl (within a certain income bracket and living in the "right" kind of neighborhood) is going to take ballet, just like *every* little boy is going to be on some kind of sports team. So, an awful lot of us can say we've taken a couple years of ballet, and of course it was easy because we started when we were 3 and then quit before pointe class since that would ruin our pretty little toes. This is a gross generalization, but it is what I see around me- you are weird if your daughter isn't in ballet class and your son isn't in hockey or little league. The attitude seriously annoys me since I have to bust my rear to be able to afford ballet classes for my son who wants to be a professional dancer- we're not in the right income bracket, he's a boy and no one is supposed to want to do this as a career- "Don't you want your son to have a real job when he gets older." Ballet is just something for little girls to do while moms socialize.
My husband compares it to when the backpacking/trekking image became vogue in Washington- all of a sudden all the 'hip' people were walking around in hiking boots and trekking gear, while it became harder & harder for people who actually *lived* this lifestyle to find good quality gear at a decent price. Quality across the board went down since it wasn't actually used to go backpacking and prices went up just because of the demand.

Originally Posted by Lara L

I think part of the American image of ballet is due to the expectation that I see that *every* little girl (within a certain income bracket and living in the "right" kind of neighborhood) is going to take ballet, just like *every* little boy is going to be on some kind of sports team.

Exactly -- and take a look at ANY kids party catalog. There is ALWAYS a ballet/ballerina theme birthday party, just like you always see baseball and pirate themes for boys. I can honestly say I know only a handful of women who never took SOME ballet/kinderballet or kid's ballet-style dance class as a tot. It's like a ritual or something in the US, and for the most part, baby ballet classes are cheap, and a great way to tire your kid out and see that she gets some exercise and socialization.

The attitude seriously annoys me since I have to bust my rear to be able to afford ballet classes for my son who wants to be a professional dancer- we're not in the right income bracket, he's a boy and no one is supposed to want to do this as a career- "Don't you want your son to have a real job when he gets older." Ballet is just something for little girls to do while moms socialize.

Can I just say I applaud you with my whole heart (and hands) !! Our studio is very focused on formal training and encouraging boys to explore ballet, and I just love it!! These kids aren't any less "masculine" than their friends in pee-wee football, and they learn the class etiquette and are so POLITE!!! I LOVE LOVE LOVE teaching dance to boys, and I so wish more parents would be like you and take dance training SERIOUSLY. Even if he decides down the road that he wants to be a doctor or something, he is still getting SOOOOO much out of those formal lessons! Statistically men have a MUCH easier time getting into college dance programs (with scholarships!) and getting dance jobs later. You are giving your son a wonderful gift no matter how he ends up using it in his adult life, and I thank you SO MUCH for being that kind of mother. :)

Very interesting thread!

I like to compare belly dance to ballet for a number of reasons, but my favorite rant is in regard to costuming. It KILLS me that certain family members get all prissy about my belly dance costumes, but when I stand onstage in a nude leotard and tights that leave absolutely nothing to the imagination, they don't even comment. Not even that, they don't even *think* to comment. It's no big deal.

So, that's my personal example of how an art form, that was created when showing the *ankle* was provocative (not to mention lifting that ankle up above your waist!), has gone through a long and hard evolution to garner respect from the GP. I think it's a very valuable example, and an interesting comparison!

I'm raising this thread as a zombie, because I have just started writing a blog series about this (prompted by a big discussion of orientalism & cultural appropriation where people kept bringing up ballet as a comparison)...

Here's part 1:
Bellydance vs. Ballet: Comparing Apples to Anteaters | Bellydance by Rasha Nour

Part 2 will be looking at the technical aspects, and the respect given to different art forms.

I'm writing these as a preliminary to some posts on orientalism etc that I plan to write later, so that I already have a ready-made response to the inevitable ballet analogies when they come up ;)