Thread: Why do we compare belly dance with ballet?

Hi :)

I have noticed that a lot of users here on Bhuz compare belly dance to ballet. Often it's in a debate, and the comparison is used as an argument a la:

"You don't see ballet dancers doing *insert the discussed move/tradition/performance environment*"

This way the comparison is used against the discussed subject.

Sometimes they use ballet as an excuse to do something that ballet does. Like when we perform on a big stage or make shows. Not that I think we shouldn't do so, but I think it's out of place to compare ballet and belly dance.

In my opinion the two dances are VERY far away from each other, and ballet shouldn't be used as an argument for or against something "belly-dancy".

But..
..What do you guys think?
- Why do we use ballet as an argument?
- Is a comparison OK when making an argument?
- And, if you do use ballet as an argument, why do you do that?
- Are there situations where it's appropriate , and where it's not?

Looking forward to follow the discussion :)

- Julie

I don't claim to have any conclusive answers but a few possibilities come to mind:

- There are a lot of bellydancers who have studied ballet or other dance forms, so it's a knowledge base that they are familiar with.
- Ballet has a formalized (generally agreed upon) structure that many bellydancers crave
- It is recognized and embraced by the general public as a formal dance form
- It has been fused into modern dance routines and generally accepted in that context

BTW I don't always accept the "ballet" arguments on mass, but within certain context, some may have some weight. I realize that sounds wishy-washy (but I am writing this before my morning coffee, so it's the best I can do in my present state.) The more I learn about bellydance, especially as it relates to Arabic music and the culture context from which it comes, the more I respect and understand it on it's own terms. At the same time, because I believe in evolution, I don't expect the dance form to remain static. Even what many purists consider classic Egyptian bellydance, has changed. It seems to me the "modern" Egyptian that is being taught covers quite a bit more stage area than the old-school form. IMHO there is not a neat apples to apples comparison between ballet and bellydance. But dancers from both styles can learn from each other as long as there is a basic respect each other's art.

Now I'm off to get some much need joe and pray that what I just wrote makes some pre-caffinated sense.

Shimmies,

Tammy

Originally Posted by Julierc

- Why do we use ballet as an argument?

Ballet is the most recognized, respected, and disciplined type of dance education in the West. The fact that our dance often lacks these things makes ballet a likely foil.

- Is a comparison OK when making an argument?

Sometimes, depends on the point being made. We can discuss our shortcomings in light of their strengths without implying that we have to "become" ballet to be worthwhile. Recently someone countered something I wrote with a remark to the effect of, "...but ballet starts with students at a younger age." True, and we've had debates on Bhuz asking why we don't recruit younger students, and why parents who would feel completely comfortable enrolling an eight-year-old girl in a ballet class, or even a Celtic dance class, would freak out at the idea of putting that same girl in a belly-dance class. Our overall quality level would certainly benefit if more students started before the age of 35. Sometimes there are valid conversations about why we aren't more like ballet.

I think it is okay to acknowledge that ballet has different aesthetics and objectives than we do, but it would be equally not okay to ignore the overlap between the disciplines, especially in a post-Reda, modern Egyptian context.

Tammy's first and third points I think are mostly the case. WRT the first point, I think it's something people have some universal familiarity with, even if they were never ballet students. Ballet is well-respected in many, many social circles whereas belly dance is not.

I'm pretty sure that I've used the ballet comparison in terms of respect and honoring the dance. It would be wonderful if we were universally viewed with the same amount of respect that ballet dancers are.

Both forms have their unique aspects, of course. One cannot compare every aspect of ballet/ballet dancers to belly dance/belly dancers, but I think some things are valid.

Tammy: Could easily understand your post - good points :)

I think it's interesting what you girls think of it. The reason I ask these questions is because I feel that ballet is often used to look down on belly dance - and I don't think that it is a fair comparison in most cases.
I also don't see ballet as an ideal.
But yes, there are some things to learn from ballet - especially if we want belly dance to be more widely accepted in Western culture.

Hi Guys - I come from a ballet background & loved the 20 + years of structure it gave as far as dance discipline goes

My wish is people coming to this dance realized/recognized that this is a true disciple that takes practice & research into to the language, music, rhythms & maqams, a basic study of the cultures. Plus there is the importance of going to classes more than once a week to be proficient.

This is the biggest difference to me.

In Ballet we needed to have a basic understanding of the french language, We needed to know the different types of training - I was trained in the Cecchitti method but needed to know about Balanchine/ABT & Vaganova and now the RAD methods of training. We needed to know the music & composers. We went to class at least 2 to 3 times a week & had rehearsals. We all realized it took time and dedication to become proficient dancers.

In BD is not unheard for people to take classes for 6 months, have a few dvd's, buy a costume & then try to start performing and/or teaching. This would never happen in Ballet...

We are all here on this forum to further our understanding but many people just dont care & I find that heartbreaking...

What Tourbeau said - also, there's the idea that, like ballet, "oriental dance" (not the folkloric or social dances) is, to a lot of us, a classical form that is its own unique self though it derives from many sources.

Like ballet, it transcends regional, class, national and cultural differences - this is not true, for example, of real folk dances that are rooted in local cultures - like stick dances as performed by local people in parts of Egypt.

So oriental dance isn't LIKE ballet in its moves - but it is like ballet in its international, synthesized nature and also in the way it can be used creatively. It isn't limited to making any one artistic or musical statement but in fact incorporates a lexicon of movements that can make any statement the dancer/choreographer wants to make.

The oriental dance incorporates regional dances but it isn't one, it's international and has its own language and also, has acquired a formal lexicon - sets of moves that can be transmitted from teachers to students. And like ballet it is practiced and studied and performed all over the world. Like ballet it evolves creatively and isn't frozen in time or purpose. This also distinguishes oriental dance from folkloric dances that have particular traditional meanings or purposes and which are linked to specific communities that are often quite insular.

Finally, oriental dance per se is the dance of professional performers and not social dancers or folk dancers.

It's been asserted that oriental dance is merely a stylization of Egyptian social dances but I think that is an indefensible position on a number of levels, if only because it ignores the rest of Africa, the ME, Turkey, Andalusia, Persia, India and the Silk Road cultures as well as Western influences like ballet - all of which are part of "oriental dance" and also, which inevitably influenced all but the most remote parts of Egypt which has been a complex and cosmopolitan culture for a very long time.

Finally, there's the issue that art doesn't always or even primarily come from the streets up - rather, it's often the other way around. People copy the art of professionals. So who's to say that "Egyptian social dances" aren't reflecting the professional dancers and not the other way around?

In fact, classical forms are both influenced by and in turn influence folkloric forms and both are constantly cross-fertilizing each other, except in regions that are truly remote and/or in which dance and other arts have ritual or religious significance. Even in those cases, people copy them and vice versa; for example look at the evolution of pottery and kachina dolls and rugs in the American southwest.

I'll post some examples later, using weavings primarily as an example. That takes the discussion out of dance so it isn't as personal and avoids some of the hot-button cultural issues.

Great questions, and great answers so far. I am sure I will echo a lot of what has already been said, but I can't help writing my own answer in my own words.

So, why do belly dancers in general make comparisons between belly dance and ballet? For any of the following or a mix of the following reasons:

1. Belly dancers tend to believe the general public respects ballet as a dance form and appreciates all the work that goes into it. Although this isn't necessarily the case, that is our general perception of it, and we would like to achieve a similar level of respect in our art.

2. Belly dance itself (like many other dance forms adapted for the stage) has adopted many concepts from ballet over the years. Top-notch professional belly dancers, even in the Middle East, tend to have ballet training.

3. Ballet is a pretty "mainstream" dance form, it is very common for girls to take it as children, so many belly dancers have had at least some experience with it. If you want to make a comparison to another dance form to make a point, it's best to speak from a place of knowledge, and it's easier to find a belly dancer who has some knowledge of ballet than it is to find a belly dancer with knowledge of, I don't know, Morris dancing.


Of course a comparison is OK when making an argument. Have you ever heard anyone say that you find out more about your own country when you've traveled the world? It's such a true statement... because if you don't know the ways in which people do things differently elsewhere, you don't know what's unique about your own country, if you have no basis for comparison you don't truly appreciate the value of the good things about it and you don't see the ways in which the bad things could be improved upon. I believe the same applies to everything in life, including dance. This is why I love bhuz, because we have all these people from all walks of life with experience and knowledge in so many different professions, fields, and arts, that can make these comparisons and make me understand things I never otherwise would have, because I couldn't possibly have known about those things.

Well, I went off on a tangent a little bit. In any case, are these comparisons always valid? Not necessarily. I don't think we should aspire to be ballet. We are belly dancers... we should cherish our numerous differences. However, it would be wrong never to make such comparisons as a matter of principle. We would be depriving ourselves of the possible lessons to be learned.

So, we shouldn't look to ballet to identify and validate ourselves. However, we should also stop denying the fact that ballet does have influences in our dance and can teach us a lot of things.

One reason is money. Ballet, modern dance, jazz, etc. often receive arts grants to support their work, while belly dancers rarely do. Another is that ballet, jazz, modern dance, etc attract large audiences for their shows, while most belly dance shows do not. Now, in order for belly dancers to qualify for such grants or attract such audiences, there are certain things we'd need to do, such as starting non-profits, establishing a high level of quality in our public performances, etc. So sometimes the comparisons with ballet are discussions of what we could do differently in order to achieve those particular goals.

Another reason is public perception. In my experience, there are two reasons why public perception of belly dancing tends to suffer: 1) The old "seducing the Sultan" or "belly dancer as sex worker" stereotype that is often reinforced by belly dancers' own bad behavior; 2) The belief that belly dancers aren't "real" dancers, are just sexy women without any real dance skill wiggling around in skimpy costumes - also often reinforced by the fact that a lot of the dancing that the public sees is exactly that. So, some of the ballet comparisons center around how/when/where the public sees ballet performances versus how/when/where they see belly dance performances.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

One reason is money. Ballet, modern dance, jazz, etc. often receive arts grants to support their work, while belly dancers rarely do. Another is that ballet, jazz, modern dance, etc attract large audiences for their shows, while most belly dance shows do not. Now, in order for belly dancers to qualify for such grants or attract such audiences, there are certain things we'd need to do, such as starting non-profits, establishing a high level of quality in our public performances, etc. So sometimes the comparisons with ballet are discussions of what we could do differently in order to achieve those particular goals.

Its important to note that most of the forms you've mentioned above are also typically funded as dance companies, with multiple dancers and organizational players. Belly dance is largely a solo endeavor for most professional and aspiring professional dancers. There is a huge difference in the mindset of company dancers, from the corps all the way up to the principal dancers, and the mindset of solo artists. Based on the years of "what makes a belly dancer a professional" threads I've read here, the sole-proprietor for-profit business model is deeply ingrained in the concept of professional belly dance.
True. You don't see many professional belly dance companies getting arts grants. You also don't see many jazz, tap, or ballet dancers rolling in the private party circuit, getting money showers, or being featured at their local restaurant on Friday and Saturday evenings.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Ballet is the most recognized, respected, and disciplined type of dance education in the West. The fact that our dance often lacks these things makes ballet a likely foil.

I think this is sums it up.

When you're reaching to make an comparison of bellydance with a dance form that is widely respected, performed in impressive venues, recognized, and has a large audience/fanbase that thinks highly of its practice, what other example are you going to reach for?

Ballet is the epitome of a highly respected dance form. If you're aiming for the top of the art, there is no higher echelon. So we use ballet for argument's sake to stand in for 'highly respected dance form' and create an analogy.

We also sometimes use hula, as in 'would you dance hula to polka music?' Hula stands in for a widely recognized & somewhat respected ethnic dance in the same way.

Interestingly, both hula and ballet have overcome connotations of sexxxiness (in its bad sense) to become respected as art, or ethnic expression, making both of them wonderful role models for us as we move forward.

Originally Posted by nayastrance

Its important to note that most of the forms you've mentioned above are also typically funded as dance companies, with multiple dancers and organizational players. Belly dance is largely a solo endeavor for most professional and aspiring professional dancers.

Agreed, BUT there are some professional companies doing Middle Eastern dance. Often, these companies will include folkloric dance in their repertoire for the big stage shows, and then agent-like hire out individual dancers to perform solo gigs. Some dancers don't particularly want to handle stuff like marketing, contract negotiation, accounting, etc., so for that type of dancer it works out fine to let a troupe director handle the business aspects and take a cut of the solo gig fees.

I agree that sort of professional dance company isn't common in our dance form, but it DOES exist.

Originally Posted by nayastrance

True. You don't see many professional belly dance companies getting arts grants. You also don't see many jazz, tap, or ballet dancers rolling in the private party circuit, getting money showers, or being featured at their local restaurant on Friday and Saturday evenings.

Agreed, there ARE important differences between belly dance and other dance forms. But Julie asked why people sometimes compare them, and I think the points I mentioned are part of the picture. But as you and others pointed out on this thread, it's not a perfect comparison.

Another reason, I think, why people sometimes compare belly dance with ballet is that ballet has a very specific sort of pedagogy (set of teaching methods) that seems to be universally used. This pedagogy is quite mature, and sometimes belly dancers see value in borrowing from it.

Belly dancers often comment at workshops featuring choreography that people who have studied ballet, jazz, modern, etc. are better at memorizing the choreography on the fly than people who have studied only belly dance. Why? Because the pedagogy used in the other dance forms includes classroom activities that build those neural pathways. Most belly dance classes don't employ those particular instructional techniques, and that's why belly dancers usually find it more difficult to master a 5-minute choreography in 3 hours.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Another reason, I think, why people sometimes compare belly dance with ballet is that ballet has a very specific sort of pedagogy (set of teaching methods) that seems to be universally used. This pedagogy is quite mature, and sometimes belly dancers see value in borrowing from it.

Belly dancers often comment at workshops featuring choreography that people who have studied ballet, jazz, modern, etc. are better at memorizing the choreography on the fly than people who have studied only belly dance. Why? Because the pedagogy used in the other dance forms includes classroom activities that build those neural pathways. Most belly dance classes don't employ those particular instructional techniques, and that's why belly dancers usually find it more difficult to master a 5-minute choreography in 3 hours.

I would go even farther than this, and say that ballet dancers have an advantage of years of doing posture exercises that students who only do this dance don't usually get. IMHO, this is what really gives ballet its superiority in light of what we're doing. They do an outstanding job of teaching muscular intention in the upper body from very early on. We usually teach it as an afterthought three or four years into a student's education, which is why so many dancers struggle with flappy, awkward arms and hunched, tentative postures, even after years and thousands of dollars invested in classes and workshops. We don't necessarily have to adopt the rigidity of their "First Position, Second Position,..." drills, but we should be looking at how we can adapt their methodology to fit our needs, because we, quite bluntly, do a pretty lousy job of teaching the average student to look graceful and purposeful beyond the hips.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I would go even farther than this, and say that ballet dancers have an advantage of years of doing posture exercises that students who only do this dance don't usually get. IMHO, this is what really gives ballet its superiority in light of what we're doing. They do an outstanding job of teaching muscular intention in the upper body from very early on. We usually teach it as an afterthought three or four years into a student's education, which is why so many dancers struggle with flappy, awkward arms and hunched, tentative postures, even after years and thousands of dollars invested in classes and workshops. We don't necessarily have to adopt the rigidity of their "First Position, Second Position,..." drills, but we should be looking at how we can adapt their methodology to fit our needs, because we, quite bluntly, do a pretty lousy job of teaching the average student to look graceful and purposeful beyond the hips.

Absolutely!

We usually teach it as an afterthought three or four years into a student's education

We do? I didn't.

In truth, I would hate BD to become like ballet, because then anybody without a western dancer's physique and over a certain age would be precluded from performing it. It's certainly going that way in some corners of BD, but one of the things I liked about it when I first started to learn was that it was a dance form that I didn't have the wrong body type for.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

We do? I didn't.

Same here- it's the very first thing I teach.

To me it's like comparing English literature to Shakespeare. Shakespeare is a measuring stick for great literature and yet you can have literature that is completely different yet be classic literature in its own right.

Never having taken ballet, however, I can't make any analogies but there are so many bellydancers who have that there must be something to it.

I think it can be useful to look at other performing arts to see how things are done & decide if we want to go that route too- what bothers me are the false analogies- folks have a lot of assumptions about ballet and I've noticed several come up in bhuz ("you would never see that in ballet"- well, yes we did.)

I start out by pointing out some "misnomers" about Belly Dance, such as thinking that one can become a belly dancer and know how to belly dance after 6 weeks of training. My comparison includes thoughts such as:

"So, you wouldn't expect to be able to go "en pointe" and dance a Swan Lake choreography after 6-8 weeks of ballet training would you? No? Well, then neither should you expect to become a belly dancer in that timeframe."

And "Belly Dance is a dance form like any other whether jazz, ballet, modern, tap, and requires just as much training to master."

This is the only time I really use the comparison. And yes...I teach that right off the bat!

Originally Posted by ErikaOH

"So, you wouldn't expect to be able to go "en pointe" and dance a Swan Lake choreography after 6-8 weeks of ballet training would you? No? Well, then neither should you expect to become a belly dancer in that timeframe."

And "Belly Dance is a dance form like any other whether jazz, ballet, modern, tap, and requires just as much training to master."

IMO these are exactly the types of comparisons that aren't valid. Belly dance isn't ballet. It does not require nearly as much training to master. Professional ballerinas dance almost everyday, for 8+ hours a day... they start training at a very young age, and their careers end comparably early because ballet is much more physically demanding than belly dance.

As for belly dance, there are a lot of amazing dancers out there with less than 8 years of training, although I have to say most amazing belly dancers do have more. However, few of them train for 8+ hours a day, almost daily... you can be a professional belly dancer on the side and still have time for a part-time or full-time job. You could never do that with ballet.

This isn't to say ballet is better or superior. It's just different... and maybe this is one of the differences we should cherish instead of pretending it isn't there.

Everyone has made great points. I wonder why ballet is the comparison as opposed to ballroom, jazz, modern, or tap. These forms have many of the same qualities that we've discussed as being integral to ballet:
1. training starts at an early age and includes rigorous physical conditioning in addition to training in the dance, musicality, et cetera
2. presentation is often in very formal "stage" venues or other places that showcase performing arts (soft shoe and certain types of tap excluded)
3. funding & organization is large-scale
4. the GP and the arts canon widely recognize & respect these forms and coworkers rarely waggle their eyebrows when you say "yeah in my spare time I take a tap dancing class"
So why ballet? Is it just easier to say ballet, clearer than saying western dance forms, the simplest reference point? Or is it because there are things we envy and aspire to (the discipline & training, the recognition/validation of our form, the reverance) and differences we're grateful for (the multi-generational/body type inclusivity, the ability to train and then go solo, do your own thing instead of living under a director...)
Just musing...

Originally Posted by nayastrance

So why ballet? Is it just easier to say ballet, clearer than saying western dance forms, the simplest reference point? Or is it because there are things we envy and aspire to (the discipline & training, the recognition/validation of our form, the reverance) and differences we're grateful for (the multi-generational/body type inclusivity, the ability to train and then go solo, do your own thing instead of living under a director...)
Just musing...

Oh, don't you know? Ballet is the *foundation* for every other dance. If you want to be a strong dancer, you *have* to know ballet. This came up when I was discussing my son's tap classes with the director of a different dance school- I can see the advantage of him taking ballet, but he has a strong tap instructor in the old school 'hoofer' tradition. I just kind of squelched my objections rather that responding to those comments. I want him to take ballet at this other school, because his tap instructor, who does teach ballet, is much *more* a tapper, if you see what I'm getting at. Take ballet from the ballet master, let the tap instructor teach tap. Argh- anyway, I see what ballet has to offer, but it is perfectly legit to get full training in other dance forms without ever stepping foot in a ballet class.

back to pointe (heh) I think part of the reason we fall back on ballet is because an awful lot of folks do have a ballet class somewhere in their history, and let's face it, the Nutcracker at Christmas and such classics as Swan Lake have a lot more social recognition than- well, what tap show have you seen lately? I used to watch old broadway videos with my grandmother, but I know that wasn't typical of my friends. I started taking tap when I was 9 and had already seen several local ballet productions at that point, and still hadn't seen a live tap performance.

Originally Posted by Lara L

back to pointe (heh) I think part of the reason we fall back on ballet is because an awful lot of folks do have a ballet class somewhere in their history, and let's face it, the Nutcracker at Christmas and such classics as Swan Lake have a lot more social recognition than- well, what tap show have you seen lately?

Ok. # 1, great use of the pun.
#2 Even though I know after 25+ years of ballet & modern dance (still dancing today!) that ballet is the foundation of contemporary western dance, I totally agree with you that you don't have to have ballet training to be incredible--look at all the street trained hop hop dancers for proof (I know many have formal training, but many dont or they come to their formal training after already being awesome dancers)
#3 How odd is it that ballet is simultaneously the most universal (everybody knows about it) and the most alien (almost nobody can do it) construct

I know, I made several sweeping generalizations. I'm feeling lazy.

I think comparing belly dance to ballet works in certain situations because the rigorous training for ballet is really well known to dancers and non dancers alike.

I try not to stress ballet vs bd too much, but it helps to illustrate that there is work involved in learning to belly dance - like when someone says, "I bet belly dance is easy!" I usually say, "It's like any other dance form, like ballet, you must work hard."

Comparing it to jazz or tap doesn't have the same effect, since people may know what jazz or tap is, they don't equate it with hard work or seriousness in quite the same was as ballet.

(Which makes me wonder if there is a tap board and everyone on there is going, "Why do ballet dancers get all the serious cred?!?! We work hard too! )

I ask myself this question all the time why do dancers compare belly dance to ballet? Why not to another ethnic dance form like flamenco or Kathak instead? They also have rigorous training and discipline, however they have something that belly dance doesn't have which is support from within their own culture.

If we are talking GP, I've met very few people who have actually done ballet at all as in Australia, you have to have a lot of money to even contemplate having your kids do it and they would really, really have to love it for you to put up with the expense. If anything, ballet has often been made fun of as it is seen as something very elitist - do we want belly dance to end up in the same situation? I know, it's made fun of for other reasons but why do people really believe that the average GP respects ballet?

Mini rant - I'm finding in most modern Western belly dancers who have ballet training, most of the time they look like ballerinas in bedlahs. It's interesting to note, my first teacher who was ballet trained had all the ballet beaten out of her belly dancing so to speak, now almost 20 years later, you're almost not a belly dancer if you don't have some sort of ballet training. That's a shame as I can't stand ballet, I think it's the most boring dance in existence, and I believe belly dance can stand on its own without the need for balletic training or technique - end rant.

Originally Posted by mafadalo

I believe belly dance can stand on its own without the need for balletic training or technique - end rant.

Here here!
Although I love ballet & modern and continue to train and perform in those forms ;)

Originally Posted by mafadalo

I ask myself this question all the time why do dancers compare belly dance to ballet? Why not to another ethnic dance form like flamenco or Kathak instead? They also have rigorous training and discipline, however they have something that belly dance doesn't have which is support from within their own culture.

Many people are not familiar with ethnic dance period. I train in Bharatanatyam, and quite a few people don't know what I'm talking about. Most people have some idea of what ballet is.

If we are talking GP, I've met very few people who have actually done ballet at all as in Australia, you have to have a lot of money to even contemplate having your kids do it and they would really, really have to love it for you to put up with the expense. If anything, ballet has often been made fun of as it is seen as something very elitist - do we want belly dance to end up in the same situation? I know, it's made fun of for other reasons but why do people really believe that the average GP respects ballet?

I started taking ballet recently, and I do not receive ignorant comments when I tell people, vs. when I tell them I study Middle Eastern dance. For ballet, I've received "Oh, good for you!" or "Isn't that hard?" For Middle Eastern dance, I've received comments such as "Isn't it just like doing this?" (someone doing some crass grinding hip motion) or being told that the dance stems from prostitutes.

The idea that ballet has a lot of respect stems from the fact there are many well-reputed and famous ballet companies across the world. There are certainly elitist aspects to ballet and I'm sure people make fun of those aspects, much like some people make fun of the Ivy League schools in the US, but I think there is a lot of respect simultaneously.

Originally Posted by indigostars

The idea that ballet has a lot of respect stems from the fact there are many well-reputed and famous ballet companies across the world. There are certainly elitist aspects to ballet and I'm sure people make fun of those aspects, much like some people make fun of the Ivy League schools in the US, but I think there is a lot of respect simultaneously.

Yes, ballet is generally respected, especially in comparison to belly dance. However, I think some of us do overestimate the GP's perception of ballet. I'm sure a lot of non-dancers do realize it takes a lot of training to be a professional ballet dancer, but very few people have an idea of just how much. Most people have no idea just how hard ballet is.

People just think ballet is hard because you have to be very flexible to achieve those extensions, and because, I don't know, it looks hard to balance en pointe or something. What people don't realize is that ballet is hard for of a lot of other reasons... ballet with tiny extensions and no pointework is still hard as hell. People don't know how much strength (not just flexibility) it takes to get your foot up in the air with a straight leg and keep it there without changing anything else in your body. Even the simplest tendu is hard. Just standing in first position is hard. Few people, other than people who have actually tried it (especially only later in life) really have a full appreciation for just how hard ballet is.

Let me give you a few examples. On the Daily Show a few months ago, Jon Stewart was making fun of some guy for being a wuss. I don't remember who it was or what he was getting made fun of for specifically, but Jon made fun of him by calling him a "weak little ballerina" or something of the sort... as if ballerina was the best example he could give of a stereotypical weakling.

When Rihanna came out with her umbrella video which features a few seconds of her walking around wearing black pointe shoes, there was outrage on a dance forum I was reading, one of the reasons was because some ballet dancers felt Rihanna was giving the impression that anyone can just put on some pointe shoes and walk around, and that this was bad because it reinforces (yes, reinforces!) the GP's idea that ballet is easy!!! Their words, not mine (paraphrased, of course). You'd think you were in bizaro world where bhuz became a ballet forum.

So, people don't understand ballet, either. Part of it is because that's all part of the illusion of ballet. Ballet dancers are supposed to look graceful and delicate... not strong and tough. A lot of people think ballerinas are these frail little beings that need to be carried around all the time. Part of it is because people tend to think of female-dominated activities as things that are easy, stupid, or what have you. Part of it is because it's hard to truly understand something you have no experience with... it's human nature.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I started taking ballet recently, and I do not receive ignorant comments when I tell people, vs. when I tell them I study Middle Eastern dance. For ballet, I've received "Oh, good for you!" or "Isn't that hard?" For Middle Eastern dance, I've received comments such as "Isn't it just like doing this?" (someone doing some crass grinding hip motion) or being told that the dance stems from prostitutes.

I have to respond to this as well. Please note that I'm not trying to argue with every single point you're making, I actually agree with everything you said as general statements, I am just trying to offer some counter-points because we all have a tendency to overgeneralize.

I already pointed out how not everyone realizes how hard ballet is or even that it's hard at all, so now I want to say that there are a lot of people who do realize belly dance isn't easy.

A few weeks ago during my lunch break at work, some co-workers were discussing some TV show about dance (probably Dancing with the Stars, I don't know because I don't watch TV), when a co-worker mentioned they should have belly dance, and asks me if it frustrates me that they don't. Before I could even say much of anything, another co-worker (who isn't a belly dancer) started this rant about how they could never have belly dance in a show like that because belly dance is an art, not just a bunch of steps you can learn over the course of a few weeks... she said you can't learn how to move your body like that in just a few weeks. It takes years of training. It's not like cha cha where someone just teaches you the choreography and you just have to remember it. Her words, not mine ;) (again, paraphrased).

So yes, of course we can't deny belly dance isn't as respected as mainstream Western dances. But I think most dancers, regardless of genre, do feel underappreciated at some point or another. And there are people who do appreciate what we do. I just felt like I needed to point those things out, just so that the generalizations we're making don't become overgeneralizations.