Thread: Putting the "Belly" back in bellydance?

I'm curious. I've read a lot from people who dislike the term "belly dance." They often say that the dance doesn't really come from the belly, and that part of the body isn't responsible for the movements, the belly isn't really used in bellydance, etc. -- and ask that we consider a different term.

Now call the dance what you will, but I'm curious about the notion that the belly isn't really what drives the movements, or any variation of the above.

Maybe it's because I'm a melange of what I've learned from multiple instructors, and not pure to any one "style" or technique, but I know FOR ME, the parts between my bra strap and my pubic bone are what's making me move. Obliques, upper abs, lower abs, whatever -- to me, that's the belly, and that's what drives practically everything. A hip lift on me is an abdominal contraction that just HAPPENS to have the effect of lifting my hip up.

Actually upon reflection-- apart from my feet, my thigh/knees during a shimmy, and a glute accent, I feel this dance coming almost entirely from my ventral area.

Just curious about who else feels this way, or why I'm not supposed to be feeling it, or other thoughts.

I agree - I think good belly dancers originate most of their moves from their abs. But that is not what the audience generally sees. They see hips lifting, twisting, shimmying - not the belly moving.

Often when people think "belly" dance they think belly rolls and flutters. This leads beginners to think the main point is the rolls etc. I was interested in how you phrased it "A hip lift on me is an abdominal contraction that just HAPPENS to have the effect of lifting my hip up". Whereas for me, I am doing a hip lift - and to get the texture and control I want, I use my abs (and QLs) to achieve it ..g.:

I don't mind the term "belly" dance because it seems to me to all comes from the centre: power, movement and emotion. Since it's "visceral" dance to me, "belly" seems to suit it.

I think "belly dance" is a good term to use; I tell people that I play the drum for belly dancers. I know this gives just about everyone who hasn't just crawled out from under a rock an instant picture in their mind, and I understand how some might not like the picture they think it produces. But it does open up a dialogue such that you can further someone's knowledge on the subject if they are interested or even, what the heck, throw 'em a CD of some tunes. You never know...

Like my Egyptian instructor says, If the belly isn't moving during your dance then she gets bord watching. I must admit I don't do it enough but I luv the layering look when your dancing and doing bellyrolls up to down or down to up with the movements. It add a greater dimension to the dance.

Note to self. Move that belly!!!!

Originally Posted by aziyade

FOR ME, the parts between my bra strap and my pubic bone are what's making me move. Obliques, upper abs, lower abs, whatever -- to me, that's the belly, and that's what drives practically everything.

I think most dance forms require a strong core. It's required for balance when doing turns or lifting the legs and is used anytime the upper and lower body are moved separately, as well as many other movements, and it sounds like that's what you're talking about here. However, in this dance we use it additionally with such movements as belly rolls, flutters and abdominal tucks and my guess is that's where the name comes from.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I agree - I think good belly dancers originate most of their moves from their abs. But that is not what the audience generally sees. They see hips lifting, twisting, shimmying - not the belly moving.

Often when people think "belly" dance they think belly rolls and flutters. This leads beginners to think the main point is the rolls etc. I was interested in how you phrased it "A hip lift on me is an abdominal contraction that just HAPPENS to have the effect of lifting my hip up". Whereas for me, I am doing a hip lift - and to get the texture and control I want, I use my abs (and QLs) to achieve it ..g.:

Hip lifts can happen many ways, from the abs, by lifting the heel and hip - making the leg move all at once, and with the buttocks. I think the belly rolls, from side to side or undulations up and down are a layering technique to use in addition to the hip movements.

my guess is that's where the name comes from

Well, the name comes from the French "danse du ventre", which was applied specifically to the dances of the Ouled Nail (IIRC) and its translation into English is "belly dance" (don't be swayed by this "dance of the stomach" bull, the French for belly is ventre and you don't have to translate French word for word to make it correct). Sol Bloom is usually considered the person responsible for popularising this translation in the US. Naili dance supposedly has isolated torso work, though I'm yet to see any to know for sure.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well, the name comes from the French "danse du ventre", which was applied specifically to the dances of the Ouled Nail (IIRC) and its translation into English is "belly dance" (don't be swayed by this "dance of the stomach" bull, the French for belly is ventre and you don't have to translate French word for word to make it correct).

Yes, I know that's where it comes from and assumed it was called that because of the belly movements.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well, the name comes from the French "danse du ventre", which was applied specifically to the dances of the Ouled Nail (IIRC) and its translation into English is "belly dance" (don't be swayed by this "dance of the stomach" bull, the French for belly is ventre and you don't have to translate French word for word to make it correct). Sol Bloom is usually considered the person responsible for popularising this translation in the US. Naili dance supposedly has isolated torso work, though I'm yet to see any to know for sure.

I know Spanish and French are 2 different languages, but they have the same roots. In Spanish, vientre is womb, not belly. I'm assuming that it's the same in French.

I know I'm being pedantic, but the reason is this, if it is indeed womb, then by definition you've excluded all men from doing it. Were there no male Ouled Nail?

Shareen el Safy, on one of her instructional videos, lectures about the importance in modern Egyptian of a focus on the front of the body in general, and how the internalization of movements produces visual movement of the midriff area. She recounts that Egyptians have a saying for good dancers: "She has a sweet waist" because of the ooey-gooey movement at the waistline in well-executed Egyptian movements.

Sedonia

Originally Posted by kina

I know I'm being pedantic, but the reason is this, if it is indeed womb, then by definition you've excluded all men from doing it. Were there no male Ouled Nail?

Certainly there were men in the ethnic group called the Ouled Nail. My understanding is that they did NOT do the dance which the French called danse du ventre.

Originally Posted by kina

I know Spanish and French are 2 different languages, but they have the same roots. In Spanish, vientre is womb, not belly. I'm assuming that it's the same in French.

Sorry, but the French word for womb is matrice or sein. Ventre is indeed the word for the tummy. (stomach, the organ, would be l'estomac). As for male Ouled Nail, I have no idea. I've never researched that particular group.

Ventre translates to "belly" or "stomache" in French.

The term "danse du ventre" was used to describe the dances performed in the Street in Cairo exhibition of the 1889 Paris world fair. This venue was such a hit it was replicated in the 1893 Chicago world fair. Dancers in Chicago were mainly ghawazi dancers and there were described in all contemporary sources as performing the "danse du ventre"--not "belly dance." The term belly dance did not appear in our vocabulary until sometime after the fair.

I'll need to recheck my Sol Bloom autobiography again, but I'm pretty certain that he refers to it as "danse du ventre," not "belly dance." The belief that Bloom invented the phrase is false--I've personally gone through all the primary sources and the phrase "belly dance" is no where to be seen. It's always referred to as "danse du ventre"--even into the burlesque era. My theory is that the phrase eventually became translated into English as "belly dance" some time early in the 20th century but I haven't yet done the research to prove this fully.

I think I remember Karim Nagi saying that the term "bellydance" came when there were western tourists (? I think) in Egypt that saw people dancing belady. When they asked their guides what it was that they were seeing, the native Egyptians responded with "raqs belady" which the tourists didn't quite understand. Since "belady" sounds kind of like "belly", and they saw the torso of the dancer moving, they came to the conclusion "belly dance". Has anyone else heard this? It kind of makes sense but I haven't heard it before...

Originally Posted by Safiyah

I think I remember Karim Nagi saying that the term "bellydance" came when there were western tourists (? I think) in Egypt that saw people dancing belady. When they asked their guides what it was that they were seeing, the native Egyptians responded with "raqs belady" which the tourists didn't quite understand. Since "belady" sounds kind of like "belly", and they saw the torso of the dancer moving, they came to the conclusion "belly dance". Has anyone else heard this? It kind of makes sense but I haven't heard it before...

I've heard it... it's a nice thought but it's a myth. There is NO evidence to support this. If you read 19th century travel accounts (which is when the East opened up to tourism), it is referred to "danse du ventre" or simply "dancing girls." Belly dance is a 20th century term.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well, the name comes from the French "danse du ventre", which was applied specifically to the dances of the Ouled Nail (IIRC) and its translation into English is "belly dance" .

Ha - just reminds me I ran across a "belly dance" web site recently which translated "danse du ventre" as dance of breath or was it wind? She must have students like mine that pig out on fish and chips before class. ..l;,

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm curious. I've read a lot from people who dislike the term "belly dance." They often say that the dance doesn't really come from the belly, and that part of the body isn't responsible for the movements, the belly isn't really used in bellydance, etc. -- and ask that we consider a different term.

Hmmm, not sure which dancers you've heard say that in particular. But I know that one advocate of abandoning the term "belly" dance is Morocco. Her statement is a bit different from what you said, though. Her logic (which makes sense to me) is that our dance form doesn't really focus the viewer's attention primarily on the movement of the abdominal muscles themselves, but rather focuses the viewer's attention on the hips - and of course also on the arms, the legs, etc.

Now, in contrast the Ouled Nail dance that was mentioned on this thread DOES focus the viewer's attention on the abs themselves.

But if you think of the overall syllabus of belly dance moves, there are very few moves that focus the viewer's attention on the abdominal muscles themselves - normal rolls, side-to-side rolls, maybe the occasional tummy pop, and flutters. Everything else draws the viewer's attention to the hips, or traveling steps, or maybe some rib cage lift/drop, or arm expression....

Originally Posted by kashmir

Ha - just reminds me I ran across a "belly dance" web site recently which translated "danse du ventre" as dance of breath or was it wind? She must have students like mine that pig out on fish and chips before class.

Oh, now THERE'S an idea for a comedy routine: the danse du vent! (Dance of the wind). I wonder how one could rig up a skirt to pouf out away from the butt in little puffs in time to a drumbeat.... I can see it now, a lineup of dancers with their backs to the audience.... Or maybe their profiles would be more effective....

Originally Posted by Safiyah

I think I remember Karim Nagi saying that the term "bellydance" came when there were western tourists (? I think) in Egypt that saw people dancing belady. When they asked their guides what it was that they were seeing, the native Egyptians responded with "raqs belady" which the tourists didn't quite understand. Since "belady" sounds kind of like "belly", and they saw the torso of the dancer moving, they came to the conclusion "belly dance". Has anyone else heard this? It kind of makes sense but I haven't heard it before...

Yes, as Aazura said, I believe this is a myth. I've heard a similar version of the story, except that it was a reporter that asked Little Egypt what her dance was called and she said "beledi," etc., etc., etc.

The belief that Bloom invented the phrase is false--I've personally gone through all the primary sources and the phrase "belly dance" is no where to be seen. It's always referred to as "danse du ventre"--even into the burlesque era. My theory is that the phrase eventually became translated into English as "belly dance" some time early in the 20th century but I haven't yet done the research to prove this fully.

That makes sense. He's quoted as saying that when people realised that danse du ventre meant belly dance, they assumed it must be salacious (making it much more exciting!). Anyone with half an education then understood a bit of French, so it would soon have spread.

The famous "beledi" story never works for me because if a person could understand Arabic well enough to ask what dance it was, they'd understand beledi too IMO. Personally I imagine if some English person said "what is that called" they'd be more likely to have heard "raqs". Were 19th century Egyptians even making definitions about raqs beledi when sharqi didn't yet exist?

Ha - just reminds me I ran across a "belly dance" web site recently which translated "danse du ventre" as dance of breath or was it wind?

Oh God, yes, I've seen that one. Pfft.

Actually, re-reading my earlier post, I should take something back. In the burlesque era, the dance was called "hootchy-kootchy," "kootch dance," "cootch dance," or also "danse du ventre." But not "belly dance."

And now that I'm home, I've pulled my Autobiography of Sol Bloom off the library shelf (yes, I have a copy... I'm such a nerd!) and he does indeed refer to the dance mainly as "danse du ventre."

"As a matter of strict fact, the danse du ventre, while sensuous and exciting, was a masterpiece of rhythm and beauty.... Almost at once this dance was imitated in amusement parks all over the country. As it became debased and vulgarized it began to acquire the reputation that survives today--the reputation of a crude, suggestive dance known as the "Hootchy-Kootchy."

He's quoted as saying that when people realised that danse du ventre meant belly dance, they assumed it must be salacious (making it much more exciting!).

Yes, on the same page as the above quote Bloom writes, "When the public learned that the literal translation was 'belly dance' they delightedly concluded that it must be salacious and immoral." Both quotes are on page 135.

Me too. Suha Azar is a stickler about this. In her classes practically everything comes from the abdominal area. Particularly hip lifts. Heaven help us if we do them any other way.

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by aziyade

. A hip lift on me is an abdominal contraction that just HAPPENS to have the effect of lifting my hip up.

Just curious about who else feels this way, or why I'm not supposed to be feeling it, or other thoughts.

Originally Posted by Lucinia

Like my Egyptian instructor says, If the belly isn't moving during your dance then she gets bord watching. I must admit I don't do it enough but I luv the layering look when your dancing and doing bellyrolls up to down or down to up with the movements. It add a greater dimension to the dance.

Note to self. Move that belly!!!!

And then there's Sausan's assertion that there is no such thing as stomach rolls in belly dance. (As said on this thread on tribe: melody vs rhythm in Egyptian dance - Egyptian Style - tribe.net )

Show me a belly
Sherezzah's Middle Eastern Postys - Ouled Nail

I have no problem with the term Bellydance.

Originally Posted by straightleftknee

Show me a belly
Sherezzah's Middle Eastern Postys - Ouled Nail

Not showing them, dancing with them. Ouled Nail dance is supposed to involve belly work (the only movement I've learned that was connected to Ouled Nail though is a kind of rapid panting flutterish chest drop thing).

I'm told the Ouled Nail originally danced to make a living, but were persuaded to do so naked (and also to sleep with customers) by Western visitors/colonists, to the point where they no longer wanted to ply their traditional trade.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Not showing them, dancing with them. Ouled Nail dance is supposed to involve belly work (the only movement I've learned that was connected to Ouled Nail though is a kind of rapid panting flutterish chest drop thing).

I'm told the Ouled Nail originally danced to make a living, but were persuaded to do so naked (and also to sleep with customers) by Western visitors/colonists, to the point where they no longer wanted to ply their traditional trade.

I also heard that their muscular dance talents extended to moving the breasts individually for those "special" dances they would do naked! If my memory serves me well (which it admittedly doesn't these days), I think that information came from Aisha Ali.

Originally Posted by vilia

I also heard that their muscular dance talents extended to moving the breasts individually for those "special" dances they would do naked! If my memory serves me well (which it admittedly doesn't these days), I think that information came from Aisha Ali.

Yes, I heard something similiar from Aisha Ali.

There is also the question of whether or not the dance of the Oulid Nail is "belly dance" - it certainly isn't raqs sharqi. I'd have put it in the (North African and) Middle Eastern folkloric box ..g.:

Originally Posted by kashmir

There is also the question of whether or not the dance of the Oulid Nail is "belly dance" - it certainly isn't raqs sharqi. I'd have put it in the (North African and) Middle Eastern folkloric box

I agree that the dance of the Ouled Nail isn't raqs sharqi, but it WAS the original dance that the French called "le danse du ventre". And it truly was a dance of abdominal isolation. The thing is that the Europeans of the day weren't making distinctions between that, the dance of the Ghawazee in Egypt, the schikhatt in Morocco, etc. Once the term came into existence, they started using it indiscriminately for any torso-and-hip oriented dance from "the Orient".

Heck, even today a lot of non-dancers can't tell the difference between raqs sharqi and the other dances of North Africa - I recently watched a so-called "documentary" called the JVC Video Anthology of World Music and Dance Volume 17 Middle East & Africa, and it referred to a woman in Tunisia doing the traditional Tunisian hip/twist oriented dance while wearing a melia (toga-like garment) and yarn hip wrap as "belly dance, except with all her clothes on". (Harrumph)

Oscar Wilde's original published play Salome contained illustrations by Aubrey Beardsley, one of which showed a topless woman and was labeled "stomach dance".

Originally Posted by aazura

I'll need to recheck my Sol Bloom autobiography again, but I'm pretty certain that he refers to it as "danse du ventre," not "belly dance." The belief that Bloom invented the phrase is false--I've personally gone through all the primary sources and the phrase "belly dance" is no where to be seen. It's always referred to as "danse du ventre"--even into the burlesque era. My theory is that the phrase eventually became translated into English as "belly dance" some time early in the 20th century but I haven't yet done the research to prove this fully.

The Autobiography of Sol Bloom definitely uses the words "belly dance" in Chapter 11, pgs. 134-135:

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It is regrettable -- of, if anyone should choose to disagree, it is at least a fact -- that more people remember the reputation of the danse du ventre than the dance itself. This is very understandable, When the public learned that the literal translation was "belly dance" they delightedly concluded that it must be salacious and immoral. The crowds poured in. I had a gold mine.

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Cathy