Thread: Questions on Turkish Belly Dance...

I'll be giving a short presentation on Turkish style belly dance at a Cultural Management seminar near the end of the month and the organizer wanted me to talk about certain things besides the obvious that I'd like to get your opinion on...thanks! These are questions straight from the email:


"What are the "benefits" of the dance in terms of cultural recognition?"

"What is the value of Turkish style belly dance to Turkish culture?"

"Who is the main target group for Turkish style belly dance?"

Thanks!

You should get ahold of Artemis Mourat or Eva Cernik. They specialize
in Turkish style.

I am not sure I completely understand the questions. However, I get the sense that the person assumes that oriental dance is more of a cultural heritage/folk dance tradition and asks for you to elborate on that aspect. However, from all I know, is not how Turks look at it. And, I believe that it is not uncommon for them to consider oriental dance "Arabic". So, maybe giving a bit of history (incl. the cengi and coceks, the court dances in the harems, and the fall of the Ottoman empire and how the Republic of Turkey developed) may be a good path? And, I would also mention the role of the Romani musicians and dancers. Artemis' article on her website is of course good, and I also like the history writeup by Kristina Melike - Introduction to Turkish Oriental Bellydance

I find the questions a bit confusing as well. I can tell you that the Turks I've danced for are nearly always surprised that I use Turkish music - dancers in Turkey these days usually use Arabic music. The dance is thought of as more Arabic as Steffi says - which I find funny. Not long ago many Egyptians thought of the dance as Turkish - you can still find references to "Raks Turkos" here and there. I think the dance gets claimed or blamed on someone else depending on how respectable it's considered in any given time and place.

Which might actually be relevant, in context. Turkey has long been known as half-European, half-Oriental, culturally. I think these days there is a lean towards promoting the European side, and so Oriental dance is less embraced as something Turkish.

I have been told more than once, though, that it would be unthinkable for Turks to have a New Year's celebration (the biggest holiday in Turkey) without a belly dancer.

Exellent points by Steffib&Aslahan

Remember that the ottoman empire lasted for 622 years(with various "lines on the map" of course)In this reign and within this empire 21 languages were spoked except turkish and arabic...the inevitable culture exchange couldn´t be erased that easy after the 1923 creating of modern Turkey(Atatürk)and the 1953 egyptian overthrow of a ruling by a family that was not arabic or turkish(but with strong connections to the later;see Muhammad Ali of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A story about King Farouk visiting Greece after 1953 goes:He went to a restaurant and the greek owner told him that he did not allow Turks or Arabs in his restaurant and Farouk said, "Hey, I am not an Arab or a Turk. I am an Albanian!" and he was let in...)
One good example of the desperate tries to stamp out the blended "ottoman"culture was banning egyptian movies,performance of egyptian film music in arabic AND arabesk music in Turkey.ARABESK - THE SOUND OF ALIENATION

Also I can remember many debates from the 90-s/00-s about demands from nationalists in Turkey to remove the female solo bellydance (to arabic music )from folklore shows shown to tourists because of it not being turkish.

A question for all knowledgeable:
Did I dream this...was some rythms considered turkish banned from shows in Egypt?I looked around but can´t find the info?

As usual, it depends! Are the questions in regard to Oryantal dance as a social dance that people do together at weddings/parties? Or regarding performing dancers?

In my experience it's something that "everybody can do", but professional dancers are viewed as women of loose morals.

Originally Posted by marsbar

"Who is the main target group for Turkish style belly dance?"[/I]
!

Japanese tourists

MEISSOUN

I'm just here to back up a few things ...

I think Emma Bessa mentioned the association between New Years and bellydancers - very true!

Meissun mentioning the entertainment for Japanese tourists - also very true!

However, I think there's more, if you don't focus specifically on performed belly dance but belly dance as a social dance. Turkish belly dance (or oryantal or oyun havasi) is what we dance to in our social functions or weddings. Most people know some variation (depending on region) of Roma dance steps for use in social dance (for example, I am from Izmir, and social dances in Izmir, called Izmir havasi are very much linked to Roma dance) . No Turkish wedding would be complete without a real bellydancer, or at least some of the grandmas dancing.

There is also linkage to folkloric dances such as ciftetelli ...

I think turks have a love/hate relationship with bellydance (or maybe that's just my internal struggle), where they love the music, love to watch it, love to dance it FEEL IT IN THEIR BONES, but do not want their daughter/sister/etc viewed "in that way".


thats my 2 cents. :)

Since we have an expert here, lemme ask more <happy dance>

Am I mistaken if I assume that the new year's belly dancer tradition started with Nesrin Topkapi performing belly dance on TV for the first time?

And, my sample (of talking to one family, so I am going out on a limb here, I know!) seems to indicate that for Turks, Roman is recognized as something one does, but not as a Turkish folk dance. Does that sound right?

Finally, when I showed my small sample a video of Candan Ercetin dancing along to a 9/8, they just called it "dance". Any comments?

Thanks a lot for sharing, it is deeply and sincerely appreciated - and, hey, welcome back!!!

Hi Steffib!
Thanks for the welcome!!!

First about Nesrin Topkapi - I can confirm that she was the first bellydancer on Turkish television (TRT). I can't confirm that she started the new years tradition mostly because I wasn't born before then so I have no first hand experience.

However, if you want my guestimate or opinion, i doubt that this is true. Why? Turkey has a strong drinking/nightlife/party culture which I think extends much earlier than the late 70's and early 80's when Nesrin was emerging into the scene.

Personally, I think that the tradition of having dancers of some sort (bellydancers, cengi, roma, folkloric performers) at ANY party is long standing in Turkey. New Years being what is probably the biggest party of the year is just the one that gets the biggest party budget.

2)
Roman havasi as folk dance:

I think the family you spoke to is partially correct. It doesn't fall under the category of recognized regional folk dances such as Ankara Yoresi, Izmir Yoresi, Zeybek, Urfa, Ciftetelli, Karadeniz, etc....


Roma dance, however, also has region specific movements and steps.

Whats the difference?

1. Folkloric dances are taught at turkish schools starting from elementary and up, and then focus on semi proffessional and pro troupes. The dances, costumes and music are strictly classified and known by both dancers and the general public.

The folkloric dances are also GROUP dances, that require the complete synchronization of the dancers. You may have a soloist or a duet as a part of a folkloric dance, but it is not possible to do a folkloric dance ALONE.

However, the exception is when the music of the folkloric dances are taken out of the context of performance and danced socially instead. This can occur at special occasions. However, in this form its no longer folklore but just social dancing using a FEW of the steps or moves of the folkloric dance. For example, my grandfather knows a few Zeybek moves and will pop some out whenever Halilim (the Zeybek song) is played at an occassion - but he cant do all moves, and much is lost by losing the synchronization of other dancers.It is rare that regular people nowadays will be able to complete an entire dance unless perhaps if they are from a very small village...and are very used to dancing together..but even then it seems unlikely.


to be continued on next post...

OK as for Roma dance, differences:

- not necessary to be a group dance (can and mostly is done solo or socially)
- no specific costume requirements
- bigger subset of music that "fits"
- was TRADITIONALLY a social dance

And here is where things get blurred:

Because Roma dancing is very popular, many turkish folklore troupes have added stylized group dances using Roma moves into their repertoire. It's also fuzzy because there are regional influences (although not as strong) I remember BEGGING the director of Turquoise (a youth turkish folklore troupe based out of Montreal and Ottawa) to add a Roma dance and he wouldn't hear of it during my time in the troupe, but last year I saw that he had finally given in to the new kids.

It's also blurred because many Turkish pop songs now take influence from Roma music (let me know if you want to see examples). You have to keep in mind that mostly, Roma people in Turkey are not living in isolation, but also engage completely in Turkish culture - the lines between the two are sometimes very very blurred. In fact, sometimes it is difficult to tell who is influencing who or where a certain move or step came from unless you study dance. This might answer your question re: candan ercetin (although Im not sure which clip you're referring to)

Great posts Aasiyah, and great questions Steffi!

It's also blurred because many Turkish pop songs now take influence from Roma music (let me know if you want to see examples)

Yes, please, I would love to hear a few examples!

ok hopefully nothing has changed since ive been away and i can still stick youtube clips here. Ok these are all Turkish pop hits HEAVILY influenced by Roman Havasi:

PS if I could have anyone's voice in this whole world I would pick Kibariye (the middle clip) ahhhhhh its so beautiful