Thread: Tribaret/Tribal Fusion - confusion....

Good Afternoon All,

I am somewhat confused by the term Tribaret? Basically i am doing a performance at a Hafla in December to a heavy Nirvana track. Up until now I have been strictly Egyptian dancing to only Egyptian music. This new performance has me dancing using both Egyptian moves (quite a lot) and tribal fusion moves.

So....does this make it tribal fusion or tribaret?

What is the difference??

It doesn't sound like either to me.

The elements being fused are music (alternative music), movements (Egyptian), movements (tribal fusion). You didn't mention the musicality, so I am not sure whether you are dancing with an accent more on the tribal fusion interpretation or an Egyptian interpretation, but that might help you decide what to call it.

I would probably go with something like Contemporary World Dance Fusion or Modern Belly Dance Fusion (assuming it is heavily belly dance influenced). When I hear tribal fusion, I expect one of the elements being fused to be ATS/ITS, so I would probably leave the word tribal out of it unless it has a heavy tribal base to the movements.

Tribaret is usually used for nightclub/cabaret style touches on an otherwise tribal costume or vice versa. In my experience, it tends to be more of a costuming term than a dance one, though I have heard some dancers refer to themselves this way if they are dancing one style, but costumed for the other.
There was a previous term for the costuming style, so you may find more information about it looking for ethno-cabaret, or glitzy ethnic if you are looking for something older than the late 90s.

Good luck! Sounds like a fun and interesting piece. :)

Originally Posted by emma_williams

So....does this make it tribal fusion or tribaret?

What is the difference??

Tribaret dance is when you combine ATS/ITS styling in some way with a Cab style BD (American Oriental/Turkish/Egyptian etc). Whether that means using the extemporaneous use of set patterns like ATS does in a group only with Cab style moves or the actual combining of ATS/ITS style movements with Cab style movements either is considered Tribaret dance although the last is rarely done.
Tribaret music is usually traditional.
Tribaret costuming is referred to as sparkly tribal or classic oriental and is often reminiscent of hand made outfits from before the days of mail order costumes.

Tribal Fusion is a solo version of the ATS/ITS styling that has incorporated additional moves from Flamenco, Bollywood, and Hip Hop.
Tribal Fusion frequently uses "urban" and alternative music to perform to.
When Tribal Fusion is combined with an additional style or has a strong emphasis outside BD usually the "Tribal" part is dropped and replaced with the name of the additional style. Ex; Flamenco Fusion (mostly Flamenco with a little BD), Hip Hop Fusion (mostly Hip Hop with etc), "Martial Arts" Fusion (yes I have seen several of these) and so on.


Considering that your music is definitely alternative and you are incorporating Tribal Fusion style moves with a heavy Egyptian influence I think you are looking at an "Egyptian" Fusion style dance. I hope you put it up on youtube since I have never actually seen that combination before.

It may be regional, but like Mahsati, I hear 'tribaret' used mainly to reference a costume style rather than a dance style.

To me, the word 'cabaret' in reference to a dance style is very specific to the Turkish-influenced melting-pot style that evolved in the US clubs in the 60s and 70s (and persisted through the 90s). It's still done in the US for sure, and is a dynamic and fascinating style. But I bristle when people refer to modern Eygptian style as 'cabaret.' It's just not accurate. So I wouldn't use that term to describe a modern Egyptian fusion anyway.

I agree with Mahsati that I wouldn't use the word 'tribal' either unless the elements you're borrowing from Tribal Fusion are Tribal elements (and you're well-trained in Tribal dance). I'm just guessing, but the elements of TF I see borrowed most often aren't the Tribal elements but the hiphop lock & pop elements, so I'd call that contemporary American dance. (it's restrictive not to use the word 'modern' but that has its own definition in the dance world, and modern dance is a pretty well-defined style).

It's hard to answer without actually seeing the dance. I think I would just call what you're talking about a fusion piece that uses Egyptian style as a stepping-off point. Or, if you have to describe it in just a couple of words, an Egyptian/contemporary fusion piece.

p.s. I also think that we get carried away sometimes in trying to be semantically accurate, but it can be a fun process in itself to dissect what we're doing and try to put language to it. For someone who doesn't find it fun, I think it's ok to just call it "dancing"

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It may be regional, but like Mahsati, I hear 'tribaret' used mainly to reference a costume style rather than a dance style.

I would agree it is the most common use. Probably because the costuming is just so... well I think it's pretty cool. Mind you I don't think of this:

Originally Posted by mahsati

Tribaret is usually used for nightclub/cabaret style touches on an otherwise tribal costume or vice versa.

...as Tribaret so much as just confused.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

To me, the word 'cabaret' in reference to a dance style is very specific to the Turkish-influenced melting-pot style that evolved in the US clubs in the 60s and 70s (and persisted through the 90s). It's still done in the US for sure, and is a dynamic and fascinating style.

If used as a shortened version of the name "American Cabaret" I would agree, however I have heard the word used more often these days as a way of separating the sparkly "night club" performance styles from the non-sparkly non-night club styles.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But I bristle when people refer to modern Eygptian style as 'cabaret.' It's just not accurate.

Why is that? The style is performed in dinner and night clubs. How is it not accurate and why does it offend you?

World English Dictionary
cabaret (ˈkæbəˌreɪ)

— n
1. a floor show of dancing, singing, or other light entertainment at a nightclub or restaurant
2. chiefly ( US ) a nightclub or restaurant providing such entertainment

[C17: from Norman French: tavern, probably from Late Latin camera an arched roof, chamber ]

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

I would agree it is the most common use. Probably because the costuming is just so... well I think it's pretty cool. Mind you I don't think of this:
...as Tribaret so much as just confused.

That may be, but in the 80s & 90s, there was a lot of ethno-cabaret style costuming. Once the tribaret term was coined, those were called tribaret instead. It didn't begin to gain its current fusion meaning until after ATS and tribal fusion became popular. [I've heard multiple people claim to have invented the term tribaret. I first heard one of my teachers use it in about 1999.] It originally referred to costumes that were not quite folkloric or nightclub-ish, so natural fabrics with beads and coins would be called ethno-cabaret and then tribaret. As of yet, I am not aware of any tribaret specific dance styles out there, but there may be some.

Why is that? The style is performed in dinner and night clubs. How is it not accurate and why does it offend you?

The term cabaret means a much sleazier joint in a lot of countries than it does in the US, so it is inadvisable to call yourself a cabaret dancer in those countries. The cabaret terminology is also a holdover from when the understanding of the dance in the US wasn't as nuanced. Now, it is more common to refer to the specific style: Egyptian, Lebanese, Turkish, American Orientale, etc. among the sparkly dancers (for clarity). I really only hear tribal dancers use the cabaret term much in my region, but it may be different in other areas.

Ava Fleming teaches "tribaret" as cabaret-style movements done as cued improv. In other words, she uses the ATS/ITS application model with the traditional belly dance stylization. I don't know of anyone else who does it that literally, though. Usually I've heard "tribaret" used to indicate you've mashed up AmCab (which is already mashed up Arabic and Turkish styles) with tribal to create something that is neither quite traditional belly dance nor full-on tribal.

Originally Posted by emma_williams

Basically i am doing a performance at a Hafla in December to a heavy Nirvana track. Up until now I have been strictly Egyptian dancing to only Egyptian music. This new performance has me dancing using both Egyptian moves (quite a lot) and tribal fusion moves.

So....does this make it tribal fusion or tribaret?

I'm leaning toward calling it "tribal fusion," even though it's probably closer to just plain "fusion." From the description of your plans, I think I would feel from watching it that the dominant feature is the music, and dancing to Nirvana seems like more of a modern tribal thing to do than an Egyptian or "-aret" thing. Unless you are very well versed in a substyle, sometimes the only obvious things separating AmCab from modern tribal are the costumes and the music. A dancer has to be really experienced to do something out of context and still make it clear what's happening. Hadia could probably do an Egyptian performance to Nirvana (or a Turkish Rom one, if you prefer). Lesser dancers tend to slide into the mushy, gray middle.

If someone says they're doing a "tribaret" number, I suppose I expect a dancer who normally isn't tribal to dance to something like Solace, or a tribal dancer to Rachel-Brice-up some vintage George Abdo.

Originally Posted by mahsati

It originally referred to costumes that were not quite folkloric or nightclub-ish, so natural fabrics with beads and coins would be called ethno-cabaret and then tribaret.

Yes, I agree. It's when they dance in one style and wear another that I was referring to. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning before.

Originally Posted by mahsati

The term cabaret means a much sleazier joint in a lot of countries than it does in the US, so it is inadvisable to call yourself a cabaret dancer in those countries. ... I really only hear tribal dancers use the cabaret term much in my region, but it may be different in other areas.

I am aware of that as I am aware that the word is usually used by tribal dancers, that does not prevent it from being an accurate usage in English. The reason I was asking was because Lauren_ had no problem with associating the name Cabaret with the Vintage American style of BD but was offended that someone might apply it to Egyptian. If it is offensive for one it should be offensive for both. If on the other hand she considers it an appropriate name for an American style of BD why should it offend her if used for others as well especially when they do fit the definition? Hence why I asked Lauren_ why she was offended and not why "anyone" might be.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

I am aware of that as I am aware that the word is usually used by tribal dancers, that does not prevent it from being an accurate usage in English. The reason I was asking was because Lauren_ had no problem with associating the name Cabaret with the Vintage American style of BD but was offended that someone might apply it to Egyptian. If it is offensive for one it should be offensive for both. If on the other hand she considers it an appropriate name for an American style of BD why should it offend her if used for others as well especially when they do fit the definition? Hence why I asked Lauren_ why she was offended and not why "anyone" might be.

Then I am sure Lauren will let you know her thoughts as well. As this is an online discussion forum, others may also respond and I have done so. In Egypt, a cabaret is not a respected location, therefore it would not normally be used to describe Egyptian style dance. In the US, it is not a negative term, thus an American style could be called (and was called) cabaret.

Originally Posted by mahsati

As this is an online discussion forum, others may also respond and I have done so.

Oh I know, I expected that. That's why I wanted to be clear that I was wondering about her specifically rather then generally.

Originally Posted by mahsati

In Egypt, a cabaret is not a respected location, therefore it would not normally be used to describe Egyptian style dance.

That is why I no longer refer to the American styles as Am/Cab anymore either personally but when discussing Tribal fusion, as you mentioned, the word Cabaret is used to describe "non-Tribal" styles. I would love a different word but I have no idea what other word there is that encapsulates the concept so well. Is there another word that means "a floor show of dancing, singing, or other light entertainment at a nightclub or restaurant"?

I'm afraid I'm one of those people Lauren_ mentioned who thinks it's fun to "dissect what we're doing and try to put language to it."

I don't like the term "Egyptian Cabaret" either because to me it makes no sense. There is Egyptian dance, in its many forms, but to add "cabaret" to the description doesn't help clarify anything. If it's not Egyptian "cabaret" then what it is? Egyptian Tribal? Egyptian Pseudo-Ethnic?

Cabaret still holds (in my area) as being the description of a kind of American fusion belly dance. In the general belly dance world, we're moving away from the word for reasons mentioned above. I see no need to add it to the name of Egyptian dance. I'm not offended by the term, but when I see it used, I wonder about the education of the dancer using it, ya know?

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

In Egypt, a cabaret is not a respected location, therefore it would not normally be used to describe Egyptian style dance.

That is why I no longer refer to the American styles as Am/Cab anymore either personally but when discussing Tribal fusion, as you mentioned, the word Cabaret is used to describe "non-Tribal" styles. I would love a different word but I have no idea what other word there is that encapsulates the concept so well. Is there another word that means "a floor show of dancing, singing, or other light entertainment at a nightclub or restaurant"?

I think she was making it culturally specific - ie classy dancing is not associated with cabarets in Egypt - therefore when discussing Egyptian dance avoid the word "cabaret".

Personally I use what the professional dancers in Egypt use 'orientale".

[disclaimer: I am having a bad day and may be overreacting?]

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm not offended by the term, but when I see it used, I wonder about the education of the dancer using it, ya know?

Let me get this right. When a Tribal dancer correctly uses the word "Cabaret" to indicate the styles, plural, of BD used for, and I quote the dictionary again, "a floor show of dancing... at a nightclub or restaurant" you wonder about their education?

Seriously?

Again, IS there any other word that means the same thing in the English language? Give me one.

The question was about Tribaret and Tribal Fusion, the use of Cabaret as a general term to cover their relationship with, well, cabaret styles of BD was appropriately used both contextually and definitively. The question isn't whether or not Raqs Sharqi should be called "Egyptian Cabaret" (wow that would open a can of worms) as I never even suggested it should but whether Egyptian, along with Turkish, American Oriental, and any other such style are meant to be performed as "a floor show of dancing... at a nightclub or restaurant" ie are "Cabaret" dance styles as defined by the English language?

If you have no problem with calling the American style of BD Cabaret but find it insulting to use it in conjunction with Egyptian because it's not "classy" what are you saying about American Oriental BD? Seriously. Think twice on that one. The underlying implications are not pretty.

Hence why I asked for a clarification in the first place.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I don't like the term "Egyptian Cabaret" either because to me it makes no sense. There is Egyptian dance, in its many forms, but to add "cabaret" to the description doesn't help clarify anything. If it's not Egyptian "cabaret" then what it is? Egyptian Tribal? Egyptian Pseudo-Ethnic?

I suppose someone could use the term to differentiate between Egyptian five-star-hotel dancing and the sort of Egyptian dance that is done at lower-respectability establishments, which often has coarser influences. If you want to start splitting hairs, there are a lot of substyles of Egyptian dance--vintage nightclub raqs sharqi, modern oriental, sha'abi social dancing, Reda folkloric, non-Reda folkloric, ... I wouldn't throw the phrase around, but I could see how the distinction could be worth making on occasion.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

If you have no problem with calling the American style of BD Cabaret but find it insulting to use it in conjunction with Egyptian because it's not "classy" what are you saying about American Oriental BD? Seriously. Think twice on that one. The underlying implications are not pretty.

The Arabic word كباريه appears to have a different connotation than the word cabaret has in American English. The implication is that two different languages took a French word and each did something slightly different with it. In American English, we don't answer the question "How are you?" with "If God wills it." We're under no obligation to use their understanding of language in our own context, but when talking about their context, it seems wise to be aware when words have different shades of meaning.

I'm not offended by the use of the word 'cabaret.'

There's nothing WRONG with being a Cabaret (American Vintage Orientale) dancer. I have great respect for it as an art form, I enjoy watching it. But it's not what I do. I would bristle if you called me a jazz dancer, too.

I said I bristle when it's used to refer to modern Egyptian style because it's so inaccurate, IMO. Because it refers to a very specific style of dance. I also assume the speaker isn't much educated in the differences.

Upthread I said I won't use the phrase 'modern dance' when referring to popping and locking. Why not? It's pretty 'modern' by the US dictionary definition, right? But 'modern dance' means something very specific *outside the dictionary* If I say, within the educated dance community, that I do 'modern dance' they immediately think they know what I'm referencing. If I use it to describe any other current/contemporary dance form, I look uneducated.

Same thing with Cabaret. It has become shorthand for a very specific style of bellydance.

I bristle at the notion that someone wants to link together all the 'sparkly' dance forms and not differentiate between them. I respect Tribal and fusion dancers enough to know the difference between ATS, ITS, Tribal Fusion, Goth Fusion, Burley Fusion, etc. I don't have a term that I lump them all together under. I ask for the same respect in return.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I bristle at the notion that someone wants to link together all the 'sparkly' dance forms and not differentiate between them. I respect Tribal and fusion dancers enough to know the difference between ATS, ITS, Tribal Fusion, Goth Fusion, Burley Fusion, etc. I don't have a term that I lump them all together under. I ask for the same respect in return.

Thank you. I think that is perfectly reasonable.

I tend to go with short hand. Not because I don't know the difference between Cabaret and all it's subsets and other styles, but because many people don't and simply become confused when I say, Vintage Orientale or Raqs Sharki. Now, I might say, Cabaret style with heavy background in Egyptian Style, most people understand the difference. Although not the General public.

Now, back to the main questions. Most people in this neck of the woods consider what is we call Tribaret to be a combination of both tribal and Cabaret elements with in the dance. Costuming is important, but secondary. The goal in the dancing is to have a balance of the two styles. yes, this might fall under "Ethnic Cabaret" a term I have never heard before. When I perform Tribaret style, I tend to use the tribal posture and arms more than any of the other parts. Although tribal paddle turns are fun!

{{{HUGS}}}

Sorry, OT...

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Although tribal paddle turns are fun!

Other than the cue that precedes it, how is a tribal paddle turn different from a paddle turn done in vintage American style? Arm position?

My experience is that Paddle Wheel in Cabaret are generally pretty smooth while in tribal there is a definite accent or down beat. But that may simply be how I was taught and observed.

{{{HUGS}}}

thanks for clearing that up

i will just name the piece 'fusion' at the hafla and people make of it what you will hehe.

I am concerned it may end up looking like egyptian to a nirvana track so really trying to fuse tribal fusion with it so it doesnt just look like an easy cop out of doing what i normally do but in goth costuming and heavy music.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

Let me get this right. When a Tribal dancer correctly uses the word "Cabaret" to indicate the styles, plural, of BD used for, and I quote the dictionary again, "a floor show of dancing... at a nightclub or restaurant" you wonder about their education?

No, when ANY dancer refers to "Egyptian Cabaret" it makes me wonder, for the reasons I listed above.

Tourbeau -- we often differentiate between "Modern Egyptian" and "Mohammed Ali Street Style," as far as performance arts, and I think that's the distinction you're asking about.

If you have no problem with calling the American style of BD Cabaret but find it insulting to use it in conjunction with Egyptian because it's not "classy" what are you saying about American Oriental BD?

As Mahsati says: The cabaret terminology is also a holdover from when the understanding of the dance in the US wasn't as nuanced.

I'm recalling the 15-page thread we had on using the word "spastic" -- or when we discuss what the "fanny" is. This is global dance form now. We can at least agree to acknowledge that some terms are MUCH more offensive to certain populations, and be aware of that.

Another issue with the use of the word cabaret as a generic descriptor for non-tribal styles of belly dance is that not every dancer in those styles performs a floor show in a nightclub or restaurant, and for many of those who do such shows, that is not the only place they perform. There's theatre performances, private parties in homes, weddings, haflis, cultural festivals, etc. So it seems rather odd to describe an entire group of dancers, among whom there is much diversity of style, with a term that requires a specific venue that many of those dancers may never dance in, or that makes up only a part of their performance range.

Originally Posted by aziyade

No, when ANY dancer refers to "Egyptian Cabaret" it makes me wonder, for the reasons I listed above.

Yes, however, they are not calling it "Egyptian Cabaret" they are rather using the description "Cabaret" by itself to describe an entire group of dances that were created for the purpose of performing in nightclubs and restaurants.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Another issue with the use of the word cabaret as a generic descriptor for non-tribal styles of belly dance is that not every dancer in those styles performs a floor show in a nightclub or restaurant, and for many of those who do such shows, that is not the only place they perform.

It is the historical base for the style however. No matter where it may be performed that does not change.


I can completely support Lauren_'s feelings of disrespect when Tribal dancers use the name "Cabaret" as an umbrella term because often it really is meant that way. I have also seen "Cabaret" dancers use the name "Tribal" in the exact same way so it isn't just one side being insulted. That does not change the fact that it is etymologically correct and nitpicking will not change it's accuracy when used in that way. There is a distinct difference between "Cabaret" and "Tribal" (and for that matter "Folk") styles both in their historical foundation and styling. Using words that differentiates the two is neither a crime nor uneducated. Whether or not it is an insult depends entirely upon the persons intentions using it but it is not an insult in and of itself. Personally I see no point in being offended whether they mean it to be or not. It is what it is, no more, no less.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

Yes, however, they are not calling it "Egyptian Cabaret" they are rather using the description "Cabaret" by itself to describe an entire group of dances that were created for the purpose of performing in nightclubs and restaurants.

My beef is only with people who say "Egyptian Cabaret" -- as I mentioned above and for the reasons I mentioned it above.

I am aware of the false dichotomy we have in our dance -- Cabaret or Tribal -- but most dancers I encounter use "Oriental" for the generic cabaret description.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

I can completely support Lauren_'s feelings of disrespect when Tribal dancers use the name "Cabaret" as an umbrella term because often it really is meant that way. I have also seen "Cabaret" dancers use the name "Tribal" in the exact same way so it isn't just one side being insulted. That does not change the fact that it is etymologically correct and nitpicking will not change it's accuracy when used in that way. There is a distinct difference between "Cabaret" and "Tribal" (and for that matter "Folk") styles both in their historical foundation and styling. Using words that differentiates the two is neither a crime nor uneducated. Whether or not it is an insult depends entirely upon the persons intentions using it but it is not an insult in and of itself. Personally I see no point in being offended whether they mean it to be or not. It is what it is, no more, no less.

As tribal has evolved into a bigger and bigger share of the market and drifted farther and farther away from its roots, we occasionally need to differentiate between "dance that looks like something a native Middle Easterner would recognize as 'theirs'" and "dance that doesn't." If that is the line we are drawing, it doesn't particularly matter whether we're talking about Nejla Ates or Dina or Mahmoud Reda or how some Lebanese family dances at their parties, because when we try to recreate their dancing, it requires us to defer to someone else's culture, movement, and artistic vision in a way that doing modern tribal doesn't. This doesn't make one side better than the other--it simply means that the broad spectrum of ethnic styles can have different sets of constraints than the tribal styles have, and sometimes we want to address those details.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

It is the historical base for the style however. No matter where it may be performed that does not change.

In my opinion, the historical and cultural base for Middle Eastern dance styles is the home or the street, in the context of weddings, baptisms, circumcisions, saints' festivals, etc. It was only brought to the stage later.

I don't really find the use of the term cabaret offensive in and of itself; I do find it a bit ignorant on the part of the user though, who could always say "non-tribal belly dance" to mean exactly the same group of people without making them all sound the same as each other.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

Yes, however, they are not calling it "Egyptian Cabaret" they are rather using the description "Cabaret" by itself to describe an entire group of dances that were created for the purpose of performing in nightclubs and restaurants.

It is the historical base for the style however. No matter where it may be performed that does not change.

Actually, the nightclub "purpose" is less than 100 years old. Prior to that it was used (professionally) for celebrations - both secular (weddings and circumcisions) and religious (moulids). It was also, and still is, used as social/folk dance by non-professionals.

Personally, I prefer a belly dance/tribal dichotomy (rather than cabaret/tribal). "Belly Dance" embraces both the professional dance (Orientale), urban social dance, beledi variations (social & professional), and some folkloric. "Cabaret" in no way covers the last four types of dance.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Actually, the nightclub "purpose" is less than 100 years old.

I think that could be argued since the earliest references I have found date to the late 1800's and have to do with public performances at dinner places.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Personally, I prefer a belly dance/tribal dichotomy (rather than cabaret/tribal). "Belly Dance" embraces both the professional dance (Orientale), urban social dance, beledi variations (social & professional), and some folkloric. "Cabaret" in no way covers the last four types of dance.

Yes and that is the point. It is used to refer specifically to the professional versions and not the social or folk dances.

This is slightly OT, but do we typically consider "folkloric" dances to be bellydance? I'm curious how others dancers view this.

I don't consider folkloric dances to be "bellydance" per se, although I grant that some of the origins of bellydance are found in various folkloric dances. What say we all?

Originally Posted by aziyade

This is slightly OT, but do we typically consider "folkloric" dances to be bellydance? I'm curious how others dancers view this.

This is all off topic.

Folkloric dance seems to be a gray area. Especially since you first have to define what Bellydance is, good luck with getting a consensus on that.