Thread: what does "Andalusian" mean to you?

When someone says "Andalusian", what do you think of?
I have just noticed there is a fairly large schism in what people portray as Andalusian.

Personally, I think of the grand courtly dance imagined by Reda, and something like this here:
Mahmoud Reda. Dances of Egypt by Nesma & Al-Andalus Danza Spain - YouTube

But it seems like some people think that Andalusian means Flamenco-fusion bellydance like this:
Nilufer - Ujvári Borbála andalusian bellydance solo 2011 - YouTube

and then there are even more variations - like some people do a type of fantasy-gypsy thing and call it andalusian.

Now I know that Reda invented an Andalusian dance for his shows, because no one knows what they really danced like - that's what Dr. Mo Geddawi taught me anyway. So does that mean that there's just carte-blanche to make it up as you go? Or do you feel that there should be some kind of adherence to what Reda's vision was?

Or, on the other hand, do you think there are two valid interpretations of the word Andalusian?

"Andalusian" without context is just an adjective to describe Andalusia. I assume it could refer to a style of classical Arabic music, or the Flamenco music that came later, or whatever nascent rap scene they have now in their local dialect, depending on which you wanted to talk about.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

"Andalusian" without context is just an adjective to describe Andalusia. I assume it could refer to a style of classical Arabic music, or the Flamenco music that came later, or whatever nascent rap scene they have now in their local dialect, depending on which you wanted to talk about.

Yeah, I've figured out that I need to search for "Muwashahat" to get what I'm looking for (or is it Muwasharat?)

since i was born, it has ment what i am. of spanish and moorish decent...zamora spain was the last strong hold of the moors.

I think both might be valid. Flamenco is an Andalusian dance, so I suppose flamenco fusions have an Andalusian element to them. If anything, Flamenco is more Andalusian than Reda's Andalusian, because Reda's is made up.

If I were looking for Reda's interpretation of Andalusian (and subsequent interpretations based on his) I would generally search for Mowashahat (and variant spellings), as well.

I think as dancers, we sometimes expect things to be black and white ("this little section of our dance is shaabi, this is beledi" etc), but almost everything is a shade of gray. Andalusian dance has many different meanings. I was lucky enough to take Amel Tafsout's workshop on "Andalusian court Dance" with scarves recently and it was lovely, but very different from other Andalusian dances I have studied. If you consider how many Arabs and Berbers were in Andalusian Spain -- having a variety of experiences in different areas -- and the different countries they traveled to after the reconquista, it makes sense that there would be different styles of dance, all with Andalusian influence.

The more I study dance, the more I realize how much more there is to study. And how blurry those boundary lines are.

helpful?

Al Andalus

Another perspective:
"Historical Perspectives on Andalusian Music"
Elena M. Villa

About the author: Elena M. Villa is a doctoral candidate at the University of Oregon, where she teaches comparative literature. She has studied Middle Eastern dance since childhood, and Flamenco since 1990. She teaches classes in both dance forms, has been a troupe director, and performs frequently in shows with Americanistan, the Middle Eastern Dance Guild of Eugene and elsewhere.

Articles by Elena Villa

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Yeah, I've figured out that I need to search for "Muwashahat" to get what I'm looking for (or is it Muwasharat?)

Did you see this page? Muwashahat | Facebook

"Muwashah" is the singular form. "Muwashahat" (or apparently also "tawaasheeh") would be for talking about more than one. Not sure if the spelling with the "r" is a word. I can't find anything for it, but I might have tried the wrong combination of letters in Arabic.

double post

Originally Posted by bintbeled

I was lucky enough to take Amel Tafsout's workshop on "Andalusian court Dance" with scarves recently and it was lovely, but very different from other Andalusian dances I have studied. If you consider how many Arabs and Berbers were in Andalusian Spain -- having a variety of experiences in different areas -- and the different countries they traveled to after the reconquista, it makes sense that there would be different styles of dance, all with Andalusian influence.

I took this workshop and was just as surprised as Latifa. Amel's Algerian take on "Andalusian" meant modern Spanish/Berber fusion music. She didn't present a 10/8 until I asked her about it. I was focusing more on the music than the dance - because we don't know the steps they did back then, but we do know the music they played.

Fascinating. I loved the workshop and the music.

Different strokes for different folks. But I imagine this is another vocabulary issue stemming from the fact that Middle Eastern dance has never been codified like other dance forms.

When I hear "Andalusian" in the context of bellydance, my mind goes to the dance and music traditions in Medieval Spain. Excellent information on the topic can be found from Habiba of Philly The Habiba Studio - Articles Now, I do not necessarily look at Reda's beautiful and more contemporary adaptations for the stage as historically accurate, but rather as creative and artistic interpretation.

Originally Posted by steffib

When I hear "Andalusian" in the context of bellydance, my mind goes to the dance and music traditions in Medieval Spain. Excellent information on the topic can be found from Habiba of Philly The Habiba Studio - Articles Now, I do not necessarily look at Reda's beautiful and more contemporary adaptations for the stage as historically accurate, but rather as creative and artistic interpretation.

I second that thought. Habiba is an excellent source for info. She's been studying Andalusian for a long time.

I initially thought it was a Spanish/Belly Dance fusion. Partly because the word does relate to a part of Spain and partly because my first introduction in connection to belly dance was exactly this with Yousry Sharif.

A few years later I was introduced to the Reda style - and I was confused. Turns out this style is influenced by muwashshah - a post-classical Arabic poetry aranged in stanzas. Very courtly and controlled.

So these days I usually qualify it as Spanish fusion or Reda/muwashshah inspired.

Both use 10/8

A wee bit OT, but there is a lot of great music from the days of the Moorish rule in Spain that deserve to be mentioned - not necessarily music one would use in an oriental dance performance, of course, but nevertheless inspiring and definitely many tunes that make one want to get up and move. Ensemble Aromates and Michèle Claude have two fabulous CDs with Arab/Andalusian music. Jordi Savall and the various Hespèrion ensembles have recorded several CDs with music from Medieval Spain; their Orient-Occident has several pertinent tunes on it that I like a lot. (I am not an expert on period interpretations of classical music, but from what I understand, those artists are getting fairly close to what things probably sounded like.)

I think beautiful gray horses with thick mains and tails with rich trappings dancing to Spanish music...

Totally OT but andalusians and lustianos are on my drool worthy want equine list.

Back to your regularly scheduled program....

A few years ago at the JoY festival in Yorkshire, I booked an Andalusian workshop , if I recall rightly with Aida Nour. We all turned up dutifully with large skirts to see a very puzzled instructor. It was dancing to a particular rthymn of Egyptian dance.

For me andalucian means two things (for dance at least)

1) The imagined- nostalgic songs and dance styles of Reda Troupe, Fairouz and others.

2) The modern living tradition of classical andalusian music found today in Morocco, Algeria, and Israel. No dance related to it. Very intellectualised music with many schools. Many orchetras and artists currently working in this styles in these countries; Amina Alaoui, Francoise Atlan among others.

Musique Andalouse - YouTube

What we see in the workshops in the orienatl dance world is usually based on number 1.

To me it would mean anything from Al-Andalus, or from the Andalucía region of Spain. That COULD mean from during Moorish rule... or it could mean something from after the Reconquista. In a belly dance/raqs sharqi context, my first thought is the Reda-style re-construction/re-imagination of Moorish Andalusian dance. But it could mean flamenco fusion or Spanish fusion dance as well.

If you're looking for good period music, Jordi Salvall's stuff is good, although the Orient/Occident album is not entirely historically accurate. (It's a bit of a fantasy and "what if" we combined European and Moorish styles of music experiment, although it certainly sounds authentic.) Volume 7 from the Music of Islam series is quite good (The Music Of Islām, Vol. 7: Al-Andalus, Andalusian Music, Tetouan, Morocco), as well as Eduardo Paniagua's Jardín de Al-Andalus, Zambra De Moriscos, and El Agua de la Alhambra. I really love Paniagua's recordings because they come with informative booklets about the music and each song on the recording. You might also want to look into the musical style of Al-Maluuf, which, although is associated with Tunisia today, traces its roots back to Moorish Spain.

Andalusian (andaluz) to me is anything or anyone from what is the province Andalucía in the present day- including gazpacho, andalusian horses, Antonio Banderas and sherry.
When it comes to dance and music, flamenco, sevillanas are the most famous examples but there are other styles too.

In Spain we ususally use the term Andalusí (instead of andaluz) when referring to something from the mideval Al-Andalus (the Al-Andalus region was a lot bigger than the Andalusia of today).

When it comes to oriental dance, I agree on Samantha Fortunatas defintion:

"SamanthaFortunata

Re: what does "Andalusian" mean to you?
For me andalucian means two things (for dance at least)

1) The imagined- nostalgic songs and dance styles of Reda Troupe, Fairouz and others.

2) The modern living tradition of classical andalusian music found today in Morocco, Algeria, and Israel. No dance related to it. Very intellectualised music with many schools. Many orchetras and artists currently working in this styles in these countries; Amina Alaoui, Francoise Atlan among others.

Musique Andalouse - YouTube

What we see in the workshops in the orienatl dance world is usually based on number 1."


I don't consider "Andalusian" a correct term for flamenco fusion belly dance, because it's not a dance style that evolved in Andalusia.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, there are many different music styles in the region, not only flamenco.