Thread: History and urban legends

Regarding the business of "history" and Souheir Zaki that starts at the end of #76 here Baladi progression suggestion

I am fascinated by the number of names and circumstances that have been attached to the quote about Souheir singing with her body. The last version I heard was that Umm Kalthoum sent Mohammed Abdel Wahab to spy on Souheir's performance and he reported back to her with the quote. I've also heard it attached to Sadat presenting her at a state dinner, the part of Nasser's eulogy about his support for authentic Egyptian arts, something about an announcer on a TV show, and a few other variations. I've heard the origin of Souheir dancing to Umm Kalthoum's songs linked to at least five different titles, too. It would be one thing if these were just crazy tales being repeated by nobodies, but sometimes the sources are considered legitimate and the stories surrounding them are full of authentic-sounding details. I'm beginning to wonder if I should even care anymore. SOMEBODY implied Souheir could dance as well as Umm Kalthoum could sing when she danced to one of those songs. Okay, whatever...

How are we supposed to weigh which versions of these stories are right? There may not even be documentation on the origin of the quote (or at least not documentation online in any sort of convenient location), so it's one person's word against another. Should we set up a huge grudge match? ("In the Dancers Bracket, Sahra Saeeda versus Yasmina Ramzy! In the Musicians Bracket, some dude who plays tabla in Dina's band versus Randa's keyboard player!") How do we ever sort out the history, when so much of it is hearsay?

BTW, nobody has anything on whether the origin of "Shik Shak Shok" is independent of Souheir?

Tourbeau, good question but I dont know what to say..

Unless there is something maybe from a TV programme or something where people have been interviewed and stated some of these things?

The puzzling one for me was Sadat.. an Egyptian President commenting on a belly dancer? did that happen?

I guess the safe thing to say in all of these situations is 'it is alleged...' .

With regards to people saying these things in workshops, I would ask the source.. and then decide.

The subject of dance history is complicated by the fact that it is difficult to tell how many of these story variations are the usual propagation of celebrity gossip, and how much is due to a language barrier. Even when the conversation is confined to English, you have multiple stories floating around about famous people. Was Brad Pitt on the verge of divorcing Jennifer Anniston before Angelina Jolie came along or not? How in the heck do we know? Even with all three principals in that story still alive, we can't guarantee that they tell the truth in interviews, or that the interviewer reported what was actually said, or if something was taken out of context--and all of this is without the concern that the words were mistranslated from another language.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The subject of dance history is complicated by the fact that it is difficult to tell how many of these story variations are the usual propagation of celebrity gossip, and how much is due to a language barrier. Even when the conversation is confined to English, you have multiple stories floating around about famous people. Was Brad Pitt on the verge of divorcing Jennifer Anniston before Angelina Jolie came along or not? How in the heck do we know? Even with all three principals in that story still alive, we can't guarantee that they tell the truth in interviews, or that the interviewer reported what was actually said, or if something was taken out of context--and all of this is without the concern that the words were mistranslated from another language.

Yes, I was going to say.. Mick Jagger and Marianne faithful allegedly brought a new purpose to Mars bars, but how relevant that is in the history of rock music I will never know.

Well, I do actually have footage of Souheir Zaki telling the story regarding the first time she danced to Om Kalsoum, she comments how no one usually danced to her songs as they were too slow, but after Om Kalsoum had performed Enta Omri, Souheir's band learned the song in a week and the great lady herself was there when Souheir performed it. If I remember there is a picture of Souheir with Mohammed Abdel Wahab and Om Kalsoum but don't know if that was the same moment when she first performed it.

This story came from a French series on the three great singers, Mohammed Abdel Wahab, Om Kalsoum and Farid El Atrache, but the interview with Souheir was in the Mohammed Abdel Wahab program. I had recorded these off the telly and I have transferred the footage to DVD so if I pull my finger out, I'm happy to upload on YT.

As far as her body sings story, I always thought it was attributed to Sadat but who knows, maybe even Souheir's forgotten who said it first!!

As regards to all these stories, why aren't we writing books about these dancers, they're still alive, I'm sure they have many more interesting stories to tell.

One would hope that an interview with a person involved in the story would be the truth, but this version isn't entirely consistent with the version Zumarrad found here Sohair Zaki | The Best of Habibi. I'd like to think Souheir isn't a liar and intentionally manipulating the press as some celebrities have been known to do <cough> Brangelina</cough>. Memories do get hazy over time, even important ones, and especially if you are in a situation where lots of people are talking about what they think happened to the point that it confuses your own recollections. Still, how do we reconcile this? It seems like it would be a pretty major detail to forget that one of the most important people in Egypt was there that first night, especially when she was critical to the plot of the story. If Heyka wrote about Souheir's debut of "Inta Omri," shouldn't that be somewhere in the Al Ahram archives?

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with finding a definitive version of history is that we want to in the first place. Maybe part of the reason there are so many variations of the story is that Egyptians don't really care all that much about the details. Maybe to them, the version of the story that goes, "So dancers were afraid to use Umm Kalthoum's music, and one time Souheir Zaki did, but when it got back to Umm Kalthoum, she was okay with it, so now lots of dancers use her music...." is sufficient. If we want to geek endlessly on the first time Rachel Brice wore knee socks with the toes cut open as arm warmers, good for us, but insha'Allah, they're good with the vague stuff. Details are only important insofar as they help you tell a good story.

Originally Posted by mafadalo

As regards to all these stories, why aren't we writing books about these dancers, they're still alive, I'm sure they have many more interesting stories to tell.

Probably because those performers don't really want it. Sometimes they renounce their careers and become more religious. Sometimes they just aren't comfortable with publicizing their lives. I think there can be a disincentive in ME societies for promoting yourself too aggressively. It looks unseemly to be such an attention whore and what kind of decent person would want to buy your trash and wallow in it with you? I think the social deterrent on self promotion is slowly degrading (Thanks, global pervasiveness of Western morals, Internet, and economic circumstances that make raw greed seem less offensive!), but mostly I think the hesitation comes from the source individuals. And some of it may be that they haven't entirely embraced the idea that there are people who care about "just a dancer" enough to make the effort feel worthwhile.

As interesting as it is to geek about the details (and I really do want to know if Sadat said it, in what context, and whether someone wrote that line for him!) I'm not sure in terms of 'history' that it matters.

When we talk about Henry VIII and his wives, the details that may have seemed important at the time (which prime minister or courtier uttered which quotable line, whether he decided to marry wife #4 after their second meeting or their fourth meeting) become meaningless gossip when we speak historically. What is important is the lasting effects of the events, the religious & political impact of the marriages.

So I totally agree that, historically speaking, what matters is that Soheir was the first to dance to Om Kalsoum's music, the great lady didn't object, and such dancing became a staple in Egyptian style dance.

What matters is that an Egyptian observer described Soheir as 'singing with her body' -- because that's a lovely insight into how Egyptians watch the dance, and it's an ideal goal for us as dancers and a perfect bit of descriptive language. Who said it, while intriguing, especially if it was anyone famous, is less important.

It's frustrating to watch the details disappear into the mists of time, to be sure. But I think that's how history is.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Lauren_

As interesting as it is to geek about the details (and I really do want to know if Sadat said it, in what context, and whether someone wrote that line for him!) I'm not sure in terms of 'history' that it matters.

I am with you on that one.

When we talk about Henry VIII and his wives, the details that may have seemed important at the time (which prime minister or courtier uttered which quotable line, whether he decided to marry wife #4 after their second meeting or their fourth meeting) become meaningless gossip when we speak historically. What is important is the lasting effects of the events, the religious & political impact of the marriages.

So I totally agree that, historically speaking, what matters is that Soheir was the first to dance to Om Kalsoum's music, the great lady didn't object, and such dancing became a staple in Egyptian style dance.

What matters is that an Egyptian observer described Soheir as 'singing with her body' -- because that's a lovely insight into how Egyptians watch the dance, and it's an ideal goal for us as dancers and a perfect bit of descriptive language. Who said it, while intriguing, especially if it was anyone famous, is less important.

It's frustrating to watch the details disappear into the mists of time, to be sure. But I think that's how history is.

I guess another angle to take is how does it change our perception of history when more details about certain aspects of history rise to the surface? Some aspects of history are created to make us think in a certain way but some details can enlighten us further on a different reality. I guss it all depends on what it is.

As an old historian..once you find that there is conflicting evidence, you tend to settle on the version that suits you
I always liked the idea that our "two fingers" had its' origin with English archers taunting the French.Nothing beat giving Y8 the sign then accounting what has turned out to be a myth...Shame but there you are. So we perpetuate what makes us smile,satisfied us etc etc...

Ok, maybe the problem in retelling a story is that I'm leaving out the details!!

Rereading that article, it's not that different to the interview with Souheir and lets face it, does anyone ever tell the same story exactly the same way all the time? I'm not surprised there are inconsistencies, overall the stories are the same, the details may vary and are only of interest to people like myself who like to know every little thing.

The history of dancers may be unimportant to the dancers themselves and Egyptians may not particularly care about their history, but doesn't mean that it would be of no value to document. I know where coming back to the ambiguous feeling that people have of artists but I don't see that as reason enough to not bother trying to put together some sort of history of dancers and the dance scene, at least the last 100 years. Maybe if someone gives me the money, I'll happily do it!!!

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

The puzzling one for me was Sadat.. an Egyptian President commenting on a belly dancer? did that happen?

She performed following a state dinner when Nixon visited Egypt, so Sadat certainly would have had an opportunity to comment on her very publically. Here's an amusing newspaper clip about the occasion:
The Age - Google News Archive Search

OMG! Writhed and wriggled!!! Maybe we should rename our dance the writhing, wriggling, gyrating (surprised they didn't use that word!!) and swaying dance!! Maybe it'll force newspaper articles to come up with more interesting words to describe what we do!!!

Thanks for the newspaper clip.. I dont doubt about the events, it just seemed a little aout of character for Sadat to comment publically on a Belly dancer (even Suheir) but I guess stranger things have happened at sea..

Ha, ha, after being finally so convinced that Souhair Zaki had actually spoken about the first time she danced to Enta Omri, I was obviously mixing up what I had read and merged her interview together with what I read and made up my own story!! I must be going mad

I was so convinced that she spoke about that somewhere, maybe she has but I don't have footage. However, I did have footage of that interview, and together with some interesting info before how Enta Omri came about, I've uploaded to YT.

I'm not making this public, even though it's probably very difficult to find these videos as I did see them years ago in Paris, but don't want any copyright nasties coming my way. Hope others find it interesting, and we can add to the history (or urban legend) of Souhair Zaki and Enta Omri.

Oh What an amazing piece of film footage!! well done for finding it and thank you for taking th time to share it with us.. certainly helps put things into perspective and I think Suheir can be officially crowned as the first dancer to perform to Um Kulthoum just as many of us had previously learned.

That is a wonderful clip!

But I have to ask--what in the world is he wearing in that photo at 4:25? Is that a paisley turtleneck?!

Well, it was the 60s, wasn't that sort of thing fashionable??

I wish I could upload all 3 programs, however, I think I just found that FNAC in France sells them.

Om Kalsoum

Oum Kalsoum - Les Grandes voix de la chanson arabe - Simone Bitton : tous les DVD à la Fnac

Farid El Atrache

Farid Al Atrache - Les Grandes voix de la chanson arabe - Simone Bitton : tous les DVD à la Fnac

Mohammed Abdel Wahab

Mohamed Abdelwahab - Les Grandes voix de la chanson arabe - Simone Bitton : tous les DVD à la Fnac

All 3 DVDs

Les Grandes voix de la chanson arabe - Coffret 3 DVD - Simone Bitton : tous les DVD à la Fnac

Amazon France has the 3 set only it seems, but they are private sellers, doesn't look like they sell outside of France

Les Grandes voix de la chanson arabe: Amazon.fr: DVD

I didn't buy them when I was in Paris many years ago, but now that they are on DVD, I definitely must own them, wish my French was better but if anyone can work out if FNAC send internationally please let me know!

I can highly recommend these videos, there's bits of dancing not much, but they interview people who were still alive from that period, Taheya Carioca is interviewed in the Farid Al Atrache episode, journalists, Naguib Mahfouz is interviewed in the Om Kalsoum episode, fabulous footage, discussion about the politics around the time, etc, etc. I'm hoping they are subtitled but I'd definitely own them anyway, since I have the subtitled versions I recorded off TV many moons ago. I believe these were filmed around 1992, some of it may be earlier.

Originally Posted by mafadalo

Amazon France has the 3 set only it seems, but they are private sellers, doesn't look like they sell outside of France

Les Grandes voix de la chanson arabe: Amazon.fr: DVD

I didn't buy them when I was in Paris many years ago, but now that they are on DVD, I definitely must own them, wish my French was better but if anyone can work out if FNAC send internationally please let me know!

I can highly recommend these videos, there's bits of dancing not much, but they interview people who were still alive from that period, Taheya Carioca is interviewed in the Farid Al Atrache episode, journalists, Naguib Mahfouz is interviewed in the Om Kalsoum episode, fabulous footage, discussion about the politics around the time, etc, etc. I'm hoping they are subtitled but I'd definitely own them anyway, since I have the subtitled versions I recorded off TV many moons ago. I believe these were filmed around 1992, some of it may be earlier.

Thanks so much for posting this! I went to Amazon.fr and ordered the 3-DVD set. They have 3 different sellers offering it - one ships only within France, but the other two appear to ship internationally.

On the right, click on "Voir toutes les offres" and that will list the Marketplace sellers who offer it. The first (and cheapest) one, "Missteegree" appears to ship ONLY inside of France. But the second one, "Zalys", appears to ship internationally, since their description says, "Expédié depuis France" which means "ships from France" - ie, they seem to expect orders coming from other countries and they're letting you know that your lead time expectations should assume that it'll be coming from France so you should allow enough time for it to get to wherever you are.

Buying from Amazon.fr can be a bit of an adventure if you don't speak French. (I do speak French.) But with the help of translate.google.com you should be able to get through. If you use Amazon.com, you can sign in using your Amazon.com user name and password, and Amazon.fr will recognize all your account info (credit cards, shipping address, etc.)

The DVDs are listed as Region 2 PAL, so for folks thinking of investing in them, check the compatibility of your playback equipment....

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The DVDs are listed as Region 2 PAL, so for folks thinking of investing in them, check the compatibility of your playback equipment....

Ah, good point. I have a DVD player that I can set to any region I want, as often as I want, and it outputs NTSC even for PAL videos, but this could snag others if they're not aware of the issue.

Thanks for the info Shira, think I'll try Amazon.fr as well, shame these aren't more widely available.

Other buyer beware is, I don't know if these have English Subtitles, so if your French is good, no problem but if not, I'm happy to provide a translation, as these shows were shown on television in Australia with subtitles which greatly helps as my Arabic or French aren't that good!

Update, I just bought the 3 DVD set through FNAC, lots of back and forth between FNAC and Google Translate, and it's a shame my postcode is at the beginning of the line and not the end so I hope it gets to Oz!!! I'll let you know if I have any issues and confirm whether there are subtitles or not.

Suheir Zaki has retold that event (Umm Kulthum showing up unexpectedly at one of her performances) several times; in print as well as on TV and Radio. To her credit, the story has always been the same. It was also corroborated by one of her band members. I did read the "Habibi" article submitted on the forum and was happy to see that Zaki didn't present a different version of her original story after all. The quote of hers is: "As I came out to a piece by Umm Kulthum".

Zaki has always been very careful not to say outright that she was THE FIRST to publicly dance to an Umm Kulthum song. That is because there are several press articles from the 1940's and 1950's indicating that other dancers had already done so at public events. Zaki does however indicate that she was the first (and only) to have the the tacit approval of the Star of the Orient to dance to the musical interludes of her songs. As far as we know, Zaki never danced to the vocal portions, or to a musical rearrangement of the vocal portions, of these songs.

As far as which song it was that Zaki danced to when Umm Kulthum made that surprise appearance? It was not Enta Omri. That impromptu meeting took place in early 1965 and the song was...Anyone care to take a guess? Here are a couple of clues: a) it was not an Abdel Wahab composition. b) It figured in the one major composition that many music scholars and historians seem to agree was made for the dance.

The Sadat quote in question is more difficult to pin down. The version most quoted is "You've done for the dance what the lady has done for song"

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Alexandrian

Zaki has always been very careful not to say outright that she was THE FIRST to publicly dance to an Umm Kulthum song.

But she did say in the video clip posted by Mafadalo that she was the first dancer to 'take that challenge'.

The "challenge" is in reference to Enta Omri in particular.

Have you any idea who the dancers were in the 40's and 50's?

were they the famous dancers of this era or lesser known nightclub dancers?

Yes. You may access the archives of Akher Sa'a (1947 and 1950), Rose Al Youssef (1944, 46, 50, 51, 58) and Al Kawakeb (1947, 1957) among others.

In regards to the question, who else has danced to Oum Kalsoum before Soheir Zaki, became famous for dancing to Oum Kalsoum, if I'm not wrong, didn't Tahia Carioca dance to Oum Kalsoum in a movie?

When I have more time I'll have a deeper look in YT as I'm sure there is a clip of her with Oum Kalsoum singing, and I'm sure I have it on video somewhere.

And while I was looking, just to throw the cat among the pigeons, I came across this:

In 1936, Taheyia danced for King Farouk’s wedding procession, significantly accompanying the singing of Om Kalsoum. A great admirer of Taheyia’s dancing Om Kalsoum stated that she would prefer to watch Taheyia over any other dancer because ‘she was the only one who could sing with her body.’ Later, Mohamad Abd El Wahab would say that ‘Taheyia was able to show a great deal of movement in such a very little space.’

From Gilded Serpent, not necessarily the oracle of truth, don't remember reading this article but it's hear if anyone wants to comment, or rip it apart:

Sausan tells of Taheyia Karioka for the Gilded Serpent

I'm off to bed, so hope I'll be able to add more tomorrow.

The topic of "golden era" music composed primarily for the dance was brought up recently (by Tourbeau). I know of a few and there are some other educated guesses out there as well but it isn't much. Do you folks care to share some of what you might have come across? There is significant interest in this for those studying music theory. Discussing the composition and the original rehearsals of Alf Leilah We Leilah for example has yielded some valuable knowledge.

Originally Posted by Alexandrian

As far as which song it was that Zaki danced to when Umm Kulthum made that surprise appearance? It was not Enta Omri. That impromptu meeting took place in early 1965 and the song was...Anyone care to take a guess? Here are a couple of clues: a) it was not an Abdel Wahab composition. b) It figured in the one major composition that many music scholars and historians seem to agree was made for the dance.

"Baeed Anak" is listed as coming out in 1965, but I don't know if was early or late in the year.

Originally Posted by mafadalo

And while I was looking, just to throw the cat among the pigeons, I came across this:

In 1936, Taheyia danced for King Farouk’s wedding procession, significantly accompanying the singing of Om Kalsoum. A great admirer of Taheyia’s dancing Om Kalsoum stated that she would prefer to watch Taheyia over any other dancer because ‘she was the only one who could sing with her body.’ Later, Mohamad Abd El Wahab would say that ‘Taheyia was able to show a great deal of movement in such a very little space.’

The proximity of Mohammed Abdel Wahab's name and the "sing with her body" quote make me wonder if this isn't the source of the recent workshop teacher's remark about Zaki. That's a big leap to jumble these ideas together and attribute them to a different dancer, though.

BTW, I've also seen Naemet Mokhtar referenced as Umm Kalthoum's favorite dancer.

Originally Posted by Alexandrian

The topic of "golden era" music composed primarily for the dance was brought up recently (by Tourbeau). I know of a few and there are some other educated guesses out there as well but it isn't much. Do you folks care to share some of what you might have come across? There is significant interest in this for those studying music theory. Discussing the composition and the original rehearsals of Alf Leilah We Leilah for example has yielded some valuable knowledge.

LOL, I did? I just started the composer topic because Norma wanted it out of the baladi progression thread. Anything else is watercooler academics. Researching the backstories for old dance music is not my usual MO. The online resources are either beyond the grasp of my Arabic or contradictory stuff written in English by dancers like this.