Thread: ATS -v- TF -v- PADT SMACKDOWN!!!!

American Tribal Style = commonly acknowledged to be the creation of Carolena Nerriccio of Fat Chance Belly Dance, is stylized Pan Arabic and Turkish dance movements blended with a sampling of various world dance movements (most notably Indian classical and Flamenco) performed in a "tribe" with 2 or more other dancers with a leader who signals changes and combinations typically of 4 - 8 count moves done in such a way that it appears choreographed but is structured improv. There is always a leader, but the leader changes. The leader signals the next combinations to the followers who are arranged so that they are within sight lines of the leader.



Tribal Fusion = building on ATS (or ITS) with additional disciplines/sampling of other stylisations thrown in. May be performed solo, huge differentiation than ATS in that regard, as ATS is always performed in a group

My favorite Tribal Fusion troupe has GOT to be Unmata, for their sheer originality, incredible energy and humor.

I'm way over the Indigo, and feel bad about it, their legion of followers who have developed a cult like fascination for them seem to have completely crowded them and ANYTHING they do gets copied so much that by the time I watch them, I've seen it a thousand times and am thoroughly, oh so bored.



Pan-Arabic = female solo improvisational dance based on social and folkloric dances performed in the middle east, influenced by ballet in the 20th century. Heavily lower body centric featuring the hips, with upper body stylizations designed to emphasize the lower body movement and to add depth and richness.

Turkish Oryantal (I don't have as much info on this, to my shame, maybe something will chime in) heavily influenced by Pan Arabic Dance, with contributions from the Rom, typically performed faster and bigger than PAD, although that is a generalization.

From what I have seen of these dance styles, and I've studied them all, Turkish least, the primary difference is in the details.

All feature heavy emphasis on the hip movements. Foot work is not as emphasized as in Western dance, and the body is used to convey the message with the arms/hands adding depth and dimension.

Primary difference that I can see is that the training aspect of each emphasizes different things, with PAD emphasizing the musicality, ATS emphasizing the unity and power of the group, TF emphasizing the individual power of the movements and Turkish Oryantal always seems to me to emphasize joy.

In ATS, you drill the movements, but the focus is that everyone moves at the same time, in the same proportions to each other and to increase the "group mind" so to speak (you WILL be assimilated!)

TF emphasizes drilling exhaustively, increasing the control of individual sets of muscles to create the aesthetic
cont'd next post

In PAD, the training focus is more directed toward combinations, versus any single move (different from TF) and how you could fit the combination in with the musical phrasing. Emphasis is placed on matching movement combinations to musical instruments (quanoon = shimmy for example)

Again, I don't have enough training in TO to be able to break it down, but I love me some 9/8, fast or slow. I have found more emphasis on footwork in TO and attitude, but again, no expert.

These are my takes on the different genres, and it's training. In my opinion, and I'm not gonna take a humble stance, not a single one is more difficult, or easier than the others.

If you train, you train. Doesn't matter if you do a thousand mayas and have such exquisite muscle control that you can tick your way through each position if it doesn't match the music.

Doesn't matter if you listen to the music so much you can sing and describe every bit of every classical arabic song that exists if you can't express it physically with your body.

Each form has beauty and it's own strengths and weaknesses, is what I'm saying.

Now, tell me why, and make it convincing without having to put down another dance form, what makes one form "harder" than another when you train. Why? How could you do it better?

Disagreement is fine, just be respectful to your colleagues on the board, but clearly state the basis for your disagreement.

Oh, and feel free to correct my assessments, if you like, I don't mind if people add on or correct me in a misconception.


Another note, I'm including all variations of Middle Eastern Dance, including American Cabaret, Egyptian, Lebanese etc, in Pan Arabic Dance for purposes of clarity, not intending to debate what if anything makes it Middle Eastern and refraining from a value judgment thereof.

I think it's individual - some styles are more difficult for certain people. Each genre has its advanced/difficult aspects. I wouldn't say one is more difficult than another. Mastering a true Egyptian feeling, for example, is near impossible for most Westerners. Doing Turkish Oryantal floorwork requires athleticism that is beyond many of us. The pops and locks of TF certainly require a mastery of muscular control, etc.

Any dance performance art is difficult to master, difficult to do well. There is always more to strive for, which is one of the things that keeps me hooked on belly dance!

For myself, I stick pretty much to my American cabaret roots, with Egyptian and Turkish influences. I want to dance to music that I LOVE, so most TF is out for me, and I've just never been drawn to study ATS, though I can see how it could be fun to do.

All are created equally difficult, in different ways, says I.

To me, and only speaking for myself, TF is harder compared to oriental because it is missing the magic of ME music that carries the dancer and harder compared to ATS because it is missing the special power of having a group's energy in an improv setting. But, that is of course all on the "it's in my head" level of comparing things.

Originally Posted by steffib

To me, and only speaking for myself, TF is harder compared to oriental because it is missing the magic of ME music that carries the dancer and harder compared to ATS because it is missing the special power of having a group's energy in an improv setting. But, that is of course all on the "it's in my head" level of comparing things.

well, your head is your greatest organ, innit? everything starts from there

I had a TF troupe for awhile and we found music that we really enjoyed. But ours was more TF in the sense of using ATS philosophy with moves inspired by pretty much everything with Pan Arabic base and the dance was designed around the music, so it wasn't strictly structured improv.

I see what you mean, but I think that TF dancers must be moved by the music as well, and that can (should/ MUST) influence your choice of stylization?

I dance primarily Egyptian based, because that's the music that speaks to me, not because I appreciate the aesthetic more than the others.

hmmmmm

Originally Posted by dunyah

I think it's individual - some styles are more difficult for certain people. Each genre has its advanced/difficult aspects. I wouldn't say one is more difficult than another. Mastering a true Egyptian feeling, for example, is near impossible for most Westerners. Doing Turkish Oryantal floorwork requires athleticism that is beyond many of us. The pops and locks of TF certainly require a mastery of muscular control, etc.

Any dance performance art is difficult to master, difficult to do well. There is always more to strive for, which is one of the things that keeps me hooked on belly dance!

For myself, I stick pretty much to my American cabaret roots, with Egyptian and Turkish influences. I want to dance to music that I LOVE, so most TF is out for me, and I've just never been drawn to study ATS, though I can see how it could be fun to do.

All are created equally difficult, in different ways, says I.

my very favorite quote Is "Bellydance is a wondrous multi-facetted jewel that shines differently from each angle that it is seen.
All are equally beautiful, but would not be so without the others. "
Roya,
Spirit-Dancer

Originally Posted by kina

Tribal Fusion = building on ATS (or ITS) with additional disciplines/sampling of other stylisations thrown in. May be performed solo, huge differentiation than ATS in that regard, as ATS is always performed in a group

Are you defining ITS as "Improv Tribal Style" or "Individual Tribal Style"? I've heard both. I can see a need to talk about tribal in a context of a group that is not doing canon FCBD (e.g., Unmata), but I can also see the validity of a name to describe the one or more dancers doing a vaguely Rachel-Brice-y dance in choreographed format, too, and the latter seems to be pretty common in some areas.

...Turkish Oryantal always seems to me to emphasize joy.

I don't think Turkish Oryantal is inherently joyous. You could do a very authentic TO performance to "Bir Demet Yasemen," which isn't a happy song. I feel the difference is that the ME-rooted styles favor traditional-type songs with aesthetically pleasing melodies and themes (which are often happy, but not always), where the newer tribal styles sometimes use darker, aggressive, or dissonant music with less emphasis on tradition (although to split hairs, ATS historically used music that was closer to the ME-rooted library than the later tribal movements).

Originally Posted by kina

Now, tell me why, and make it convincing without having to put down another dance form, what makes one form "harder" than another when you train.

I think some people find some styles resonate more with their bodies than others. The amount of previous training you have had can affect your ability to pick up some forms easier than others. I also believe not all personality types are equally suited to studying and conforming to what others do, so someone on the non-conformist end may find fusion a better fit than a dance where success depends on achieving a particular look.

Oh, and feel free to correct my assessments, if you like, I don't mind if people add on or correct me in a misconception.

It isn't exactly a disagreement, but I wish Egyptian hadn't been lumped into Pan Arabic while Turkish was pulled out separately.

It isn't exactly a disagreement, but I wish Egyptian hadn't been lumped into Pan Arabic while Turkish was pulled out separately.

Why?

Turkish was pulled out because while I understand that it is based on Arabic dance, it's inherently not Arabic, while Egyptian is.

I'm going on linguistic values here, so I'd also pull out Persian dance from the group, but it's not as common and not used as widely performed.

ITS to my understanding is the offshoot for everything that was based on the FCBD format, but not FCBD approved, thus Improvisational Tribal Dance.

Rachel Brice, while the innovator and arguably the creator of the Tribal Fusion style does ITS with her troupe, that would be the defining factor, and Tribal Fusion when she solos. In this context, ATS (if of FCBD lineage) or ITS is group improv.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I think some people find some styles resonate more with their bodies than others. The amount of previous training you have had can affect your ability to pick up some forms easier than others.

I agree with this, and some will find some movements much easier to accomplish than others. But over the years, I've heard things like "tribal is more muscle based and cabaret is more skeletal".

I am disinclined to state that one form uses muscle more than the other, because all of the them use the same muscles pretty much in the same way, but the emphasis may be different.

nevertheless, this goes around quite a bit, and I'd like to hear good solid concrete rationals as to why people think this?

I'm also really tired of hearing people putting down one style based on incomplete information, and am hoping that we all can learn something from each other.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I also believe not all personality types are equally suited to studying and conforming to what others do, so someone on the non-conformist end may find fusion a better fit than a dance where success depends on achieving a particular look.

Can you elaborate?

I'm introverted, quiet and shy. I tend towards fantasy, sci-fi and like music with driving beats (like hip hop, R&B, reggae, latin and african). I *am* noncomforist and have lived my life quite antithetically to what my particular society perceives as conforming.

When I dance, Jemileh takes the stage and she is decidedly NOT any of those things. She is extroverted, strong and I like to think powerful in her presentation, shiny and glittery and LOVES Egyptian music, modern and old, she has no middle ground.

If your assessment were accurate, then I should veer more towards Tribal Fusion, which does draw a section of me, but my preference is Egyptian, while the TF speaks to my artistic exploratory side.

Originally Posted by kina

Turkish was pulled out because while I understand that it is based on Arabic dance, it's inherently not Arabic, while Egyptian is.

My concern is that "Pan Arabic" feels like the dividing line is drawn solely on the basis of what language the lyrics are sung in. Considering the size of the Egyptian styles' population, it seems unexpected to lump them together with the rest of the Arab-speaking world--both under-representing how many students dedicate themselves to pure Egyptian styles, and short-changing the few dancers who want to do pure styles from other places like Lebanon. And occasionally one comes across Egyptians who never embraced Pan-Arabism and consider themselves ethnically and culturally distinct from "Arabs."

Rachel Brice, while the innovator and arguably the creator of the Tribal Fusion style does ITS with her troupe, that would be the defining factor, and Tribal Fusion when she solos. In this context, ATS (if of FCBD lineage) or ITS is group improv.

So what name would you call the sort of modern tribal that is done as fixed choreography? Not arguing, just asking.

Originally Posted by kina

I agree with this, and some will find some movements much easier to accomplish than others. But over the years, I've heard things like "tribal is more muscle based and cabaret is more skeletal".

I was thinking more along the lines that if you've had a lot of ballet and Western dance training, Reda-style folkloric and modern Egyptian will be easier for you than if you haven't. The same would be true for hip-hop and some modern tribal variants.

Can you elaborate? [...]If your assessment were accurate, then I should veer more towards Tribal Fusion, which does draw a section of me, but my preference is Egyptian, while the TF speaks to my artistic exploratory side.

It seems like you (Kina) are able to emphasize/de-emphasize different aspects of your personality fairly easily. Not everybody can, just like some actors are very flexible and can take on a wide range of roles and others can only do variations on one character.

If you (any "you") enter the dance with the idea that it is solely a vehicle for the expression of your ego (and I'm not saying that is necessarily wrong because this is a creative endeavor with lots of possible outcomes), you may find criticism of your interpretation difficult to absorb, and consequently a challenge for you to follow through on the necessary corrections to understand and conform to the established expectations. There's no implication that one style is better than the other here. It's just as wrong to put aggressive pops and locks in Golden Age Egyptian style as it is to insist you don't feel that the traditional "fence" arms suit your interpretation of the music in ATS. If you're trying for a style with a specific look and you can't subjugate your ego to those standards, you better make peace with the idea of doing fusion.

I've often had difficulty with the non-conformist = tribal (of all types), conformist = PAD/TO dichotomy set up by.... someone, for the simple reason that while TF dancers may wear stripey arm warmers that will get them stared at in the supermarket, the whole tribal aesthetic seems to be geared around conformity of movement. I think all tribal is profoundly western in this regard. (And indeed I've often wondered why the hallmark of western professional dance is conformity/moving as one/one idealised form and one only when western culture has for several centuries emphasised the individual. Whereas in cultures where a communal approach to society is more normative, there's far less emphasis on "you must do this dance only in this way" (caveat: Japan and China, and I imagine Korea and Taiwan too.)

Interestingly, while what I learned as a tot was technically PAD with a leaning towards Egyptian, it was heavily seasoned with Salimpour and I did not really learn combinations so much as movements, drilled carefully and often to ensure strong technique, followed by choreographies to teach me how to put them into practice. We did not emphasise learning how to improvise in the classes I attended, especially not at beginner level (which I feel is a fault).

Over the years, teaching largely on my own in terms of peer feedback, I started discovering more things about how movements "worked" in my own body and taught them that way, and was quite gratified to discover that I had found certain principles of Egyptian dance on my own. This wasn't something I learned by observing dancers and making notes of What Egyptians Do - I'm really only at that stage now - but rather from the inside out. It was and is about what the movements feel like and the way they are generated than anything else. When I did my thesis I had a profoundly helpful moment when an old Latin dance buddy, who had studied belly dance years before, remarked "it feels so nice when you do it". (I still owe that man a beer.) So in a lot of ways I was working on what feels nice and works well, based on what I learned initially.

I was about to write "Egyptian flavour" rather than "Egyptian dance" above but I don't think that is correct, because the "Egyptianness" of my dancing comes from the inside out. It is muscular. I don't dance like an Egyptian, I don't think, but technically I am far closer to that than anything else.

When you work with Egyptian teachers - and I've only worked with a very few so far - they seem to emphasise feet and legs and hands and plies and suchlike a lot. The core stuff, they don't really talk about. But a non-Egyptian specialist in the dance like Shareen el Safy, who has gone in and observed and copied intently, has determined (perhaps from her Salimpour-trained standpoint, who knows??) how the look is achieved from the inside out.

So whenever I hear "oriental dance uses the skeleton, tribal the muscles" I just go HUH?

I do feel that one of the reasons why the difficulty and difference of tribal and its offshoots are emphasised so hard is simply because Carolena Nerriccio is a personal trainer. Tribal is for gym fantatics - or rather, it's founded by gym fanatics. So it is often, I think, presented as a kind of workout, as a method of controlling and refining the body by beating it into submission, through lots of sweat and reps and even nutrition. I've never yet met a person who loves the gym who also talks gleefully about the ease of anything they do. Rather they like to push their bodies hard and feel excited that they have done more, lifted heavier, etc etc. They are people who get off on the high created by very hard physical exertion, along with... dare I say... the knowledge that what they are doing is hard and pushing their bodies to the limit.

I was working with a personal trainer for a while and also going to ballet, and I've returned only to ballet. I love the barre, it's hard hard work and I feel great after my ballet class and my belly dance classes too, because of the exercise endorphins... I am not as exhausted as I was after my PT half hour, but I feel JUST as great, and I think I prefer it because the exercise is disguised with music, musicality and creating lovely forms. Given a choice I'd take dance classes over any other form of exercise any time, and I love to drill too, But it's because of the movement to music more than anything else. I am sweating and puffing after a performance but I don't notice how hard I'm working till the dance is over.

Originally Posted by kina

Pan-Arabic = female solo improvisational dance based on social and folkloric dances performed in the middle east, influenced by ballet in the 20th century. Heavily lower body centric featuring the hips, with upper body stylizations designed to emphasize the lower body movement and to add depth and richness

Except it isn’t solely female – men do perform (professionally) as well – although in significantly lower numbers. In the social version it is commonly danced by men.
I wouldn’t say the influence was specifically “ballet” – but a range of western dance forms that influenced mainly the posture and use of space. The “feel” is not “ballet” – as you can see all too often when ballet copmanies do “belly dance” as a character form.

Originally Posted by kina

In PAD, the training focus is more directed toward combinations, versus any single move (different from TF) and how you could fit the combination in with the musical phrasing. Emphasis is placed on matching movement combinations to musical instruments (quanoon = shimmy for example)

I’d disagree here. Combinations are mostly a way to drill moves and play with the music. There should never be memorized then shoe horned into the music.

Most of my serious training has been with teachers who play music and then interpret it. Often differently every time it plays. I have never come across someone saying "anyone got some music that this will fit?"

Originally Posted by kina

Now, tell me why, and make it convincing without having to put down another dance form, what makes one form "harder" than another when you train. Why? How could you do it better?

I think whatever form does not mesh with your physical body, personal movement or expressive style is hardest. For instance, I hate to be part of group speak – so for me the discipline of following ATS would drive me to despair. Many TF styles require a particular body type and gym work – for many it is a goal too far. For some the requirement to back subtle movements (such as in some Egyptian styles) would be hard – ie they have lots of range of motion naturally and want to use it.

Originally Posted by kina

I agree with this, and some will find some movements much easier to accomplish than others. But over the years, I've heard things like "tribal is more muscle based and cabaret is more skeletal".

I am disinclined to state that one form uses muscle more than the other, because all of the them use the same muscles pretty much in the same way, but the emphasis may be different.

You can use quite different muscles to achieve similar looks - ie pushing your hips around with your legs or using core muscles. But I don't think it is a POD/Tribal difference. I mean, have you watched Fifi Abdou doing a taqsim? I think the "cabaret dancers use their skeletons, tribal dancers use their muscles" is a mix of put down (Cabaret dancers are so pathetic) and a misunderstanding of how good dancers do generate movement. Not to mention it is a totally misexpressed statement - bones can only move when muscle contract.

I mean, have you watched Fifi Abdou doing a taqsim?

I am convinced Fifi's torso is made entirely of very high quality rubber bands.

I think whatever form does not mesh with your physical body, personal movement or expressive style is hardest.

Yes, I agree. I love to stand upright and make small intense muscular movements, and while I am fairly flexible for an old bird who doesn't do yoga or something I am certainly not one of those ultra flexy people. And I don't like to leap about and spin, so the wilder forms of our dance don't attract me the same way, even though I admire them very much.

Originally Posted by kina

I see what you mean, but I think that TF dancers must be moved by the music as well, and that can (should/ MUST) influence your choice of stylization?

I dance primarily Egyptian based, because that's the music that speaks to me, not because I appreciate the aesthetic more than the others.

Hehe, I just love Turkish, especially Romani - and it is not necessarily for the movement per se, and certainly NOT for the costumes worn by Tulay ;-) and I don't feel drawn to the whole "fantasy gypsy" idea, but it is clearly the music and how it brings out the movement. So, I deeply sympathize with what you're saying about the music speaking to you.

With that, I think that the strong connection between music and dance makes it easier to dance to it. As I understand it (but I am no expert), I believe that for many TF dancers, the music is more a basis to explore and experiment with movement, and not the driving force and magic potion of their dance. To me (again, my opinion only), the music and the relation to the music is the biggest obstacle to TF.

And, when it comes to categorizing for the purpose of this discussion, I feel it is safe and appropriate to consider Turkish, Arabic and the US branches of oriental dance as one one group. Yes, there are many, many differences and as a card-carrying Turkophile, I am happy when I see that fact mentioned, but especially when one considers the degree of cross-pollination under the Ottoman rule and then in the later 20th century, it is also that the Turkish and Arabic versions of oriental dance share a lot.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

My concern is that "Pan Arabic" feels like the dividing line is drawn solely on the basis of what language the lyrics are sung in.

*shrugs* that's because it is. For the purposes of this discussion, it seems irrelevant to discuss the various socio economic, geographical and not inconsiderable other factors when the purpose is to discuss movement and the training/teaching thereof.

of course, in a class room setting it's important to note and teach the differences, but for the discussion, not really necessary.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Considering the size of the Egyptian styles' population, it seems unexpected to lump them together with the rest of the Arab-speaking world--both under-representing how many students dedicate themselves to pure Egyptian styles, and short-changing the few dancers who want to do pure styles from other places like Lebanon. And occasionally one comes across Egyptians who never embraced Pan-Arabism and consider themselves ethnically and culturally distinct from "Arabs."

You may be overestimating the number of people who perform and study purely Egyptian styles. While on *this* particular message board, it may be in the forefront, it's not necessarily the end all and be all of other areas.

In New England, for example, the dancers who proclaim themselves Egyptian style are not as common.

The musicians here are Lebanese, Armenian, Greek and Turkish. This is what you get, and you're just as likely to get Samra ya Samra in an American Caberet show as you are in an Arabic styled show.

Just, like in the language, you get different accents.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

So what name would you call the sort of modern tribal that is done as fixed choreography? Not arguing, just asking.

Dunno. I know FCBD have used choreography at times as well, but I'm sticking to their definition.

If the piece is choreographed, however, I think it strays, but haven't a clue what to call it, unless you may want to call TF.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I was thinking more along the lines that if you've had a lot of ballet and Western dance training, Reda-style folkloric and modern Egyptian will be easier for you than if you haven't. The same would be true for hip-hop and some modern tribal variants.



It seems like you (Kina) are able to emphasize/de-emphasize different aspects of your personality fairly easily. Not everybody can, just like some actors are very flexible and can take on a wide range of roles and others can only do variations on one character.

Very good point.

Originally Posted by kashmir

You can use quite different muscles to achieve similar looks - ie pushing your hips around with your legs or using core muscles. But I don't think it is a POD/Tribal difference. I mean, have you watched Fifi Abdou doing a taqsim? I think the "cabaret dancers use their skeletons, tribal dancers use their muscles" is a mix of put down (Cabaret dancers are so pathetic) and a misunderstanding of how good dancers do generate movement. Not to mention it is a totally misexpressed statement - bones can only move when muscle contract.

I've been inclined to agree, HOWEVER, I try really really hard to start from an assumption that the other person is being as respectful as I am.

I've also heard it from some very earnest and sincere people who have "drunk the koolaid" so to speak, and then are shocked at the intensity of the work in other classes. I think it comes more from a lack of experience and insight into movement vocabularies.

These same people are shocked to realize that some many PAD/TO styled dancers trained under Suhaila S. in the very same manner as those of the Indigo.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Except it isn’t solely female – men do perform (professionally) as well – although in significantly lower numbers. In the social version it is commonly danced by men.
I wouldn’t say the influence was specifically “ballet” – but a range of western dance forms that influenced mainly the posture and use of space. The “feel” is not “ballet” – as you can see all too often when ballet copmanies do “belly dance” as a character form.

On the social dancing and men performing, point taken.

but the influence, hmmm. I see much more of ballet in it than that of other dance forms, including the arms, the arabesques, although of course they are modified.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I’d disagree here. Combinations are mostly a way to drill moves and play with the music. There should never be memorized then shoe horned into the music.

Most of my serious training has been with teachers who play music and then interpret it. Often differently every time it plays. I have never come across someone saying "anyone got some music that this will fit?"

mmmm, being a bit too literal here. If the combination doesn't fit with the music, it's not forced, you explore how to modify it and make it yours.

That having been said, there are few 8 count combinations that WON"T fit music, as long as you are responsive in your dance and can modify as needed.

My primary teachers (and certainly the most influential) have all performed improvisational and CANNOT for the life of them (not my assessment, their own) follow a choreography to save their lives.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I think whatever form does not mesh with your physical body, personal movement or expressive style is hardest. For instance, I hate to be part of group speak – so for me the discipline of following ATS would drive me to despair. Many TF styles require a particular body type and gym work – for many it is a goal too far. For some the requirement to back subtle movements (such as in some Egyptian styles) would be hard – ie they have lots of range of motion naturally and want to use it.

very true, although I'd argue that while the most famous practitioners of TF seem to have a similar body type, after seeing them in workshops etc it appears to be much more related to the costuming.

The flexibility of someone like Rachel Brice however, is indeed breathtaking.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I don't think Turkish Oryantal is inherently joyous. You could do a very authentic TO performance to "Bir Demet Yasemen," which isn't a happy song.

I agree, but I also think that it is very common for the upbeat/speed (and use of 9/8/some of the Turkish-Rom flavor) in some Turkish Oryantal sets to be the " surface things" people remember about it...and much of what we see coming out of Turkey nowadays is clips we get from variety and nightclub shows and the context limits the range of what the style has to offer in favor of the showy quick-quick.

The veil work, slower floor work, more introspective parts of it may blend in with what many viewers have seen thanks to the Turkish Oryental and Pan-Arabic influences in the branches of American styles and thus they do not stick out as specific to Turkish O.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

You could do a very authentic TO performance to "Bir Demet Yasemen," which isn't a happy song.

Actually, no - Bir Demet is not a song that one would use for an authentic Turkish performance. It is used for American Cabaret, but not for Turkish Oryantal.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

I do feel that one of the reasons why the difficulty and difference of tribal and its offshoots are emphasised so hard is simply because Carolena Nerriccio is a personal trainer. Tribal is for gym fantatics - or rather, it's founded by gym fanatics. So it is often, I think, presented as a kind of workout, as a method of controlling and refining the body by beating it into submission, through lots of sweat and reps and even nutrition.

How classes and training are treated (as an extension of music or as an extension of gym training) is a really good point.

It's not unusual for a class in America to begin with yoga stretches, go through muscular conditioning exercises, then drill movements, and finally maybe get around to actually dancing expressively to music. I see a lot more focus on the conditioning and drilling now than when I started. And I'm talking about generic "belly dance" classes, not focused on TF classes.

One thing that I loved about my first classes in belly dance was that we started off each class actually DANCING. Moving to the music -- letting the music guide us. Yes we did drills, but the focus was on expression. None of us danced alike. We were encouraged to express the music the way that we felt best represented us. There was no one "correct" way to do a movement.

One thing that continually frustrates me about some classes I take or observe now is where is the dancing? It's all stretches and situps and squats, and then drilling, and maybe if there's time left over, you learn part of a choreography. Going back to the idea of conformity -- it's a teaching model that DOES encourage uniform technique. There is one "correct" method of achieving a particular movement. The focus of the class is driven towards achieving that correct way of moving, rather than exploring ways in which the movement can be used for musical expression. I think this narrow focus is actually liberating to some students.

I don't think either approach is "harder" than the other, but one will suit certain students better. I had classmates in ballet who hated the rather rigid structure of our syllabus, and others who absolutely hated the "be a tree" exercises when we modern dance improvisation exercises.

Personally, I enjoy working with Suhaila's material and her online classes because when I finish I feel like an athlete. I feel the same way about tribal fusion classes and workshops. I feel energized, exhausted, and like I've pushed my body physically to a new "high."

But I never get the feeling that I'm really a "dancer" (like I did with ballet) when I do those classes, or do a 1-hour Tae-Bo dvd. I don't connect with most of the music that TF teachers use, and I really don't feel like we pull inspiration from that music. If I want to feel like a DANCER, I go back to those "PADT" classes. That is, however, just my personal feeling.

Addendum to the above, on certain classes being more physically demanding than others:

I do have to give a nod to the workshops I've been in that teach Reda technique. I think just trying to actively keep up with the instructors (even when it's material I've seen before) is physically and mentally exhausting. It's a completely different kind of exhausting than the exhausting of drilling for 90 minutes in one of Suhaila's workshops, but it's equally exhausting. I'd almost say that kind of training is actually harder because of the brain power required to figure out which way to turn, walk, etc -- and it's almost always counter-intuitive to what you want to do. lol.

Originally Posted by aziyade

How classes and training are treated (as an extension of music or as an extension of gym training) is a really good point.

... (cut for length)



I don't think either approach is "harder" than the other, but one will suit certain students better. I had classmates in ballet who hated the rather rigid structure of our syllabus, and others who absolutely hated the "be a tree" exercises when we modern dance improvisation exercises.

Personally, I enjoy working with Suhaila's material and her online classes because when I finish I feel like an athlete. I feel the same way about tribal fusion classes and workshops. I feel energized, exhausted, and like I've pushed my body physically to a new "high."

But I never get the feeling that I'm really a "dancer" (like I did with ballet) when I do those classes, or do a 1-hour Tae-Bo dvd. I don't connect with most of the music that TF teachers use, and I really don't feel like we pull inspiration from that music. If I want to feel like a DANCER, I go back to those "PADT" classes. That is, however, just my personal feeling.

I understand what you're saying. It makes a difference I think to those people who go to a dance class as an alternative fitness routine -v- those who want a technique class.

When I was teaching, I structured my classes like I did my fitness classes (I was a group fitness instructor as well). I'd write a choreography, put on music, we'd go through a combination, then break it down. Drill the footwork so the weight would be correct for the next transition, then the hips, then the torso, then the arms last of all. If people got confused, they could drop the upper body work and go back to the basics.

I found that this worked well to give people a sense of the moves, how to dance while setting up for your next combination, AND gave them the feeling that they were dancing at the end of the day. We'd do the whole choreography top to bottom over the hour, with varying degrees of success, without pressure to have to do everything right.

People reported feeling like they worked hard, AND got to work on movement patterns that were "bellydance".

If I were teaching a pure technique class, I could break down a rib cage lift and have people working on 1 lift and it's variations for the full hour, but that's only interesting to people who want to learn how to dance, instead of those who are in for an alternative to the gym.

Originally Posted by steffib

Actually, no - Bir Demet is not a song that one would use for an authentic Turkish performance. It is used for American Cabaret, but not for Turkish Oryantal.

I could have sworn there was a clip on YouTube of someone (Nesrin, maybe?) dancing to it. At any rate, I believe the idea still stands. Melancholy, slower songs and taqasim are part of the canon, especially for TO floorwork, yes?

I think some people find some styles resonate more with their bodies than others. The amount of previous training you have had can affect your ability to pick up some forms easier than others.
love this!

I think ITF may also resonate with different personalities as well as bodies. In my very limited experience with students and troupe members who have gone on to embrace the tribal fusion styles rather than more "traditional" styles, the fusionistas never had an instant love for traditional ME music, nor did they care to learn much about it's intricacies. In addition, they did not wish to develop the audience connection and vulnerable emotionality that is a hallmark of the "lighter" side. Many of them were naturally introverted and wanted to maintain a sense of distance and self possession. My pleas of "smile - at least sometimes" were lost on them. Some were also reluctant to go "sequined" as they just never saw themselves in that mode. These are not physical differences, but rather mental ones. I would like to qualify this opinion by stating that I know a few fusion dancers in my area who are not at all in this mould, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

I must say that if TF had existed when I first tried BD, when I was 24, or even when I started having proper lessons at 33, the chances are high I would have GOBBLED THAT UP WITH A LADLE. I am really glad that I did not get that chance - I think being forced to confront my lighter side rather than encouraged to wallow in gloom and anxiety has been very good for me.

Not that TF is about gloom and anxiety, but the costuming, the music, the jitteriness, the theatrical impetus, the easy opportunity to say I So Edgy etc, the culture of non-traditional performance events, make it very appealing to anybody who WANTS to push that front and centre.

And unsurprisingly after years of BD I have once again settled on most liking music as old as myself, with lyrics generally laden with self-indulgent mopery, but this time I know how to deal with it without ripping myself to shreds, to smile and have fun and play with it all. Plus I got this whole load of cultural extras.

Originally Posted by kina

Each form has beauty and it's own strengths and weaknesses, is what I'm saying.

Now, tell me why, and make it convincing without having to put down another dance form, what makes one form "harder" than another when you train. Why? How could you do it better?

I think TF is harder, only because if you are mixing two things together (if it's going to be done well) you have to know these two things well. In that regards, TF is double the work (in my case, Egyptian and ATS plus a heapin' helping of Suhaila :D ) But in terms of technique, effort or whatever, IMHO, all styles require the same toil. I have had intensives with Mohamed El Hosseny and Rachel Brice and both have left me thoroughly exhausted and crying for Mommy and a vat of Tiger Balm. LOL

For the rest, well... these discussions always leave me feeling a bit unsettled. I love me a good Saidi as much as a good TF piece or a fun ATS set. I am as likely to blast a baladi or a Maduro song and I feel equal emotional connection to both. I have seen performances in all styles that have moved me to tears, and all styles performed by different body types. I don't connect with the idea that TF dancers are gym bunnies or that they are not as emotionally connected to music as PADancers. It just doesn't fit with my experience. In my TF class, we're as likely to discuss a folkloric step, a student's upcoming Egyptian performance or the intricacies of a 9/8 than we are to discuss sidewinders, chicos, the intricacies of 7-13-7 and the best way to fix the hemline on a pair of Melos. The students who study only one style are in the minority and we often make the rounds from studio to studio, learning everything we can get our hands on. I guess I will count myself lucky that I have such a great community within an hour's drive of my home!

Also, I don't want to take sides. I don't want to put down any style/anybody based on generalities and I really dislike it when all TF dancers are lumped into one "OMG-atrocious-aaart-farting-robot-music-stripy-socks" group. I can certainly understand why people may feel that way. However, I think there is equal artistry in a classical Egyptian song as there is in an Amon Tobin one. The form is different, granted. But competent musicians, no matter if they worship at the altar of the computer or of the mizmar, are talented artists. A 25 yard skirt can be as giddiness-inducing as a sparkly lycra one. Likewise for competent dancers. Maybe they like TF, maybe they like Turkish or Egyptian or ATS or whatever; but the genre does *not* make the dancer.

*(Not talking about beginners or "misguided souls" that perform poorly chosen pieces or pieces that are not ready for public viewing, because frankly, those are found in all styles of bellydance )

Just my two cents. Cheers!

Point well taken. In my small corner of the world, dancers are not so omnivorous (nor hungry).