Thread: Critique this Iconic Dancer

I have watched a lot of vintage dancers on video, but it is like when I see a photo of Marilyn Monroe. I don't see her - I see the icon. What do you see in this dance that makes it look not right by today's standards? Please post clips of other iconic dancers and lets talk about how you would express classical oriental dance in a different way than the dancer you post. Yes..there are subtle differences in music that have changed the dance...but let us focus on technique and how it has changed instead.


I dont like her arms... busy busy busy! Her phrasing is off.

Well, I don't think her phrasing is off, because I think she's actually dancing to the underlying rhythm, BUT as a professional dancer she leaves a LOT to be desired.

For example, she takes her cover-up off in front of her audience which is just a BIG no no. People might think she is a stripper. Her backup dancers don't even HAVE coverups and are sitting in the audience in costume! What the hell is wrong with their teacher? Hmm. Maybe Samia is their teacher, THAT would explain their faux pas.

And she's dancing for an all-male audience which is similarly foolish, foolish, foolish and makes our dance look bad. Plus. that costume is far from family friendly - those legs would not fly in a California restaurant and she might even lose her licence to dance and be fined if a CHILD saw them.

She has also FAILED to change her hair from a workaday style and she's NOT SMILING. Clearly she is AWFUL.

It's funny, the first time I saw Samia I didn't like her arms either but they have grown on me now. But yes, they are busy. And there's a certain.... lack of core strength, at least the appearance of it, that is different to what we seem to see a lot of in dancers today. Obviously Samia HAS core strength but she has this sort of bowed, lissom quality through her torso that seems innate and not a stylistic choice.

She looks a lot frailer than your average star dancer today, not in body type necessarily but in her appearance of physical strength and solidity.

Although I do like her so much more now than I used to.

Originally Posted by anala

I have watched a lot of vintage dancers on video, but it is like when I see a photo of Marilyn Monroe. I don't see her - I see the icon. What do you see in this dance that makes it look not right by today's standards? Please post clips of other iconic dancers and lets talk about how you would express classical oriental dance in a different way than the dancer you post. Yes..there are subtle differences in music that have changed the dance...but let us focus on technique and how it has changed instead.


I dont like her arms... busy busy busy! Her phrasing is off.

I'm not sure that we can really judge based on this kind of video. I always give the benefit of the doubt to these movie performances. We don’t know what music, if any, the dancer was actually hearing or how much of her performance is her choice vs. the director/producer/choreographer. No dancer is beyond critique, but there are a lot of external factors to take into account when the performance comes from a movie and not from the dancer’s own heart, mind, and body's natural movement.

Very good point. Can you find a video that you could use?

Originally Posted by anala

Very good point. Can you find a video that you could use?

Probably not of Samia - I don't think I know of a non-movie performance video of hers off-hand, though I hope there is one! The next best thing would probably be one of the movies directed and produced in Egypt and meant for Egyptian audiences. Maybe with a zeffa or wedding performance? I would assume that the directors would give the dancer more lead in a situation like that and you might get a better view of her style instead of the movie choreographer/director/producer. Even then, if it is a movie, it is hard to be sure the music is right unless you can see the orchestra playing and watch her dancing in the same frame.

I was thinking of a compare and contrast sort of thread using iconic dancers as an exercise in examining how styles and tastes have changed. We all love to talk about the greats, and how great they were, but do we really think that, or are many of us paying lip service, and actually think that their dancing lacks the technical polish of today's Egyptian dancer? This is a spin off thread from the skimpy costume thread where a couple of Bhuzers prepared themselves for bodily attack because they admitted to not liking Samia's dance style.

Originally Posted by anala

I was thinking of a compare and contrast sort of thread using iconic dancers as an exercise in examining how styles and tastes have changed. We all love to talk about the greats, and how great they were, but do we really think that, or are many of us paying lip service, and actually think that their dancing lacks the technical polish of today's Egyptian dancer? This is a spin off thread from the skimpy costume thread where a couple of Bhuzers prepared themselves for bodily attack because they admitted to not liking Samia's dance style.

Ah - I can see that. :) I tend to go the other way, though. I don't think it is a requirement to like anyone's dancing, whether technically good, artistic, or whatever based on other people's tastes. No one will get side-eye from me for not liking Samia (or whoever from the past). There are dancers whose style I love and those I really don't get among both historical and modern dancers. :)

My comment was just b/c of the movie staging. It used to be really common (might still be) for dance numbers to be filmed with one music or even with just a metronome and then overdubbed with a totally different song.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Well, I don't think her phrasing is off, because I think she's actually dancing to the underlying rhythm, BUT as a professional dancer she leaves a LOT to be desired.

For example, she takes her cover-up off in front of her audience which is just a BIG no no. People might think she is a stripper. Her backup dancers don't even HAVE coverups and are sitting in the audience in costume! What the hell is wrong with their teacher? Hmm. Maybe Samia is their teacher, THAT would explain their faux pas.

And she's dancing for an all-male audience which is similarly foolish, foolish, foolish and makes our dance look bad. Plus. that costume is far from family friendly - those legs would not fly in a California restaurant and she might even lose her licence to dance and be fined if a CHILD saw them.

She has also FAILED to change her hair from a workaday style and she's NOT SMILING. Clearly she is AWFUL.

Respectfully, dancers of this era and Middle Eastern dancers did take their cover-ups off like this, they often wore coats, lingerie capes, things like that - not veils - and they simply and matter of factly - took them off.

As for the hair, I had wigs that looked like this, short curly hairstyles were fashionable well into the 70's and they made a change from the long stuff underneath.

PS I think she's pretty darn good but what do I know.

Well, I"ll do my best to take the bait. Part of the reason why I don't feel this is the best performance of hers coincides with the opinions of others - she looks like she doesn't enjoy it, and that seems to be more of a story/artistic decision. It even concludes with what looks like some non-consensual shenanigans. The same as Mahsati said.

Basha did say that she didn't like that particular clip, the costume, or the dance. A lot of the movies set in a modern setting, like a nightclub or on a variety show, they don't have the sort of sleazy undertones that these have. I mean, the character not only takes off her coverup, but also appears to be removing jewelry as well?

I think Samia has a beautiful dance. I think she looks stunning, really - outside of this scene, which does get passed around a lot. She makes it look effortless. Though I prefer Turkish to Egyptian, and Neilja Ates in Son of Sinbad versus Samia in Ali-Baba, I also haven't seen Ali-Baba in its entirity, and it seems she is more than just a cameo scene in the beginning.

Also: I LOVE more coverup-coverups that aren't just veils. Sure, it has a questionable undressing context, but I think it makes for a more theatric reveal.

That being said, I LOVE this costume (if it was fit to rest on the hips instead). Sheer without coming across as sleazy, and elegant in its simplicity. Sometimes I don't dig the heavy beaded look of modern bedlehs or gowns. What does fupa mean?

My impression is that her dancing in this clip is designed for the movie. The music is a Western impression of "exotic" Middle Eastern music, it's certainly not real Turkish or Egyptian music.

I think her dancing is lovely, and I don't mind the costume, it's just another era, a different style but it's not ugly to me. She works it pretty well.

Her dance style in this clip is more lyrical, not so many torso and hip articulations as we are used to seeing in Egyptian dance nowadays. But her lines and her carriage are beautiful.

You know, with the coverups, I was surprised when I first saw them, and the very matter-of-fact, almost perfunctory way the dancers simply took them off and casually tossed them aside!

But, that had its own drama, and, come to think of it many of the dancers I worked with didn't do a whole lot with the veils either, even if they wore them throughout the first fast section, which most did.

Some of the veils had snaps too - I keep remembering stuff - and - they weren't light silks or even diaphanous chiffons either - often they were satin or metallic fabrics, to match the skirts. The snaps would create cloak-like garments from the veils, then, snap snap, it's off and it's an oblong or sometimes a cape. They certainly didn't move like a modern veil, that's for sure, nor were they used like one! But, they were dramatic in their own way and maybe the fact that they were removed quickly removed the stripper element from it; if you think about it, taking a garment off slowly is much more provocative.

Anyway, as far as Samia is concerned, the garment removal I've always loved (and the garment!) was this huge green skirt. I'll see if I can find it.

I think that, for her time, Samia was probably very good and that's why she was a star. She was doing something different with the dance. Granted, this was long before our time when dancers didn't have the resources we do now. Now I can take workshops with teachers from all over the world or buy their videos or watch countless youtube clips. It's a totally different learning environment. I give dancers like Samia credit for being influential to our budding dance style, but I also know that compared to today's top dancers she wouldn't place in any competitions. And I have a soft spot for cheesy old Hollywood videos!

When critiquing a film dance one always has to take into account the context.

In this scene, Samia has been bought at the slave market and brought into her new master's house.
So of course she has to remove her over-clothes first when he asks her to show her skills. And he can make her dance but he can't demand that she enjoys it. So her expression fits the role she is playing.

MEISSOUN

In the famous Zeina clip, her style is much more Egyptian than in this clip.

Originally Posted by meissoun

When critiquing a film dance one always has to take into account the context.

In this scene, Samia has been bought at the slave market and brought into her new master's house.
So of course she has to remove her over-clothes first when he asks her to show her skills. And he can make her dance but he can't demand that she enjoys it. So her expression fits the role she is playing.

MEISSOUN

This.

In many ways, I think her dancing and expressions are perfect for this *movie* scene. I completely get a vibe from her like "you asked for it, this is what you get, #$%head". She doesn't put any oomph or passion into it, and he can't make her. :)

On the other hand, if you'll be the girl in pink at 0:54, I'll be the one in green. They seem to know she's got something going on.


It's hard to compare past dancers with present dancers. Go watch old 'ballet' videos, particularly what passed for ballet on the vaudeville and movie scene, where the filming equipment was, and try to compare based only on skill level to current dancers. Times have changed, bodies have changed, training has changed. None of that invalidates the previous art.

[My favourite example of bodies changing is the difference you see in abdomens that have been trained using sit-ups versus abdomens using crunches. Our can bodies literally reflect our times...]

Well, obviously my tone was off because I can't believe any of you took that post seriously.

I think that looking at film clips of someone like Samia Gamal or Taheya Carioca could actually show that they were significantly superior to today's dancers. Egyptian dance is primarily a conduit for Egyptian music. The dancers' self expression of how the music makes one feels. What Gamal and Carioca accomplished is show that the dance can, with the help of music, also provide means to interpret scenes from daily life. In the below scene from Ali Baba, the dance is an interpretation of mood. Anger, frustration and sorrow flow out of Samia Gamal. And, she manages to do so not with the help of music but rather inspite of it. I look at her arm movement and I never see that it's too busy, I see the restlessness that is born from anger and frustration.

Carioca, Gamal, Akef, etc. remarkably did so over careers that spanned decades.

Suheir Zaki, whom I have been in love with since my eyes first started focusing, had thirty more years of musical and dance development aiding her choreography. She had more vocabulary. Yet, I do not think she's ever rendered this dance as Carioca did.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Well, obviously my tone was off because I can't believe any of you took that post seriously.

Did I take it seriously, no... but dang, I did a good laugh out of it ;-)

Egyptian dance is primarily a conduit for Egyptian music. The dancers' self expression of how the music makes one feels


Inspired by your post, Alexandrian, and I have not yet had enough coffee to know fear..so I am going to post this. I love the old style, I love the vibe, the emotion and the flow. Amaya told me that Aziza once performed as Samia, so at this past Camparet (where she was the featured instructor) I had the notion to dance to Abdel Halim Hafez. You just don't hear this music in public any more, so this was my tribute to the old days and the old ways.

..I have not yet had enough coffee to know fear..so I am going to post this. I love the old style, I love the vibe, the emotion and the flow. Amaya told me that Aziza once performed as Samia, so at this past Camparet (where she was the featured instructor) I had the notion to dance to Abdel Halim Hafez. You just don't hear this music in public any more, so this was my tribute to the old days and the old ways.

Fear nothin..That was first-rate stuff. Which one of these silly face buttons is for envy?

oh, God, someone likes it!!

Originally Posted by anala

Egyptian dance is primarily a conduit for Egyptian music. The dancers' self expression of how the music makes one feels


Inspired by your post, Alexandrian, and I have not yet had enough coffee to know fear..so I am going to post this. I love the old style, I love the vibe, the emotion and the flow. Amaya told me that Aziza once performed as Samia, so at this past Camparet (where she was the featured instructor) I had the notion to dance to Abdel Halim Hafez. You just don't hear this music in public any more, so this was my tribute to the old days and the old ways.

I LOVE IT!! Wow, you got EVERY accent in that music. Aiwa!

One thing that always strikes me about dancing from the 40s and 50s is the set of the dancers' shoulders. It seems like a stylistic thing from back then that the shoulders should be somewhat up around the ears!

Ann Miller, particularly around 1:04:
Too Darn Hot - YouTube

Tahiya Carioca, look at about 0:50:
Taheya Carioca Egyptian Bellydancer 1941 - YouTube

Broadway Melody 1940:

Broadway Melody of 1940 Amazing Dance Sequence Fred Astaire and Eleanor Powell - YouTube

You do not see that "raised shoulder" posture today, and indeed to me it looks weird. Every dance teacher I've had class with has at some point told someone to "drop those shoulders" or " let the shoulder blades fall down the back". What was the origin of this posture?

Originally Posted by anala

oh, God, someone likes it!!

Um, yeah! You were great, your dancing made me smile. I love how you didn't shirk away from the jazzy mood in parts of the song. Often a drive for authenticity removes the willingness to do what the music tells you when the music tells you to do something Gene Kelly would do (with an eastern flair). I felt that you totally "got" this music.

Originally Posted by tigerb

One thing that always strikes me about dancing from the 40s and 50s is the set of the dancers' shoulders. It seems like a stylistic thing from back then that the shoulders should be somewhat up around the ears!

Ann Miller, particularly around 1:04:
Too Darn Hot - YouTube

Tahiya Carioca, look at about 0:50:
Taheya Carioca Egyptian Bellydancer 1941 - YouTube

Broadway Melody 1940:

Broadway Melody of 1940 Amazing Dance Sequence Fred Astaire and Eleanor Powell - YouTube

You do not see that "raised shoulder" posture today, and indeed to me it looks weird. Every dance teacher I've had class with has at some point told someone to "drop those shoulders" or " let the shoulder blades fall down the back". What was the origin of this posture?

I don't know, but to me those shoulders in the old Egyptian clips look flirty and almost like "I'm giving you a hug."

I am fascinated by the almost continual soft inward pelvic undulations over traveling steps, so smooth, so delicate...sooooo hard!

I acknowledge that comparing Samiah Gamal to today's dancers would be a difficult task. But I often wonder why many, including myself, seem to be so entranced by a simpler form or choreography.

The ubiquitous Taht El Shibbak has been done ad nauseam for seventy years now. Here is an excellent example by “Shereen”.



This is a well done performance. It pays attention to the music, it’s well choreographed, it’s lively and energetic and the dancer’s is technically very sound. When I watch this I nod my head in appreciation.

But then I watch the original that everyone has memorized by now. The music is nearly identical in time and tempo with the only noticeable difference being Aziz othman's cooing vs. Fatmah Serhan's straining.



This is not just understated, it’s downright sparse. So, why is it that when I watch this I don't respond with appreciative head nodding. Instead, I’m usually found with my jaw hanging open, muttering obscenities about the woman’s genius.

Maybe it has something to do with what Youssef Chahine said about Carioca. "This is what we want to do when we're alone. Not to perform, but to dance."

The waist is such a focal point of this dance when done the old fashioned way, sigh, and the lack of a "back seat driver" lends itself to an unselfconsciousness that is very appealing. In watching my own clip...I can tell you exactly where my ego begins to try and wrestle control away from "me". I am getting better and faster in the ability to drown my thoughts at birth.