Thread: When is cheek, camp, and kitsch appropriate in a performance? Is it still appropriate?

Again, still a student here, but the discussion in the comedy thread, combined with my own preferences got me thinking about this.

I won't deny - the orientalist fantasy movies, the fantastical bible epics - that's something that had a huge influence on me wrt my interest in bellydance. In, "What makes a Great Dancer," I posted with one of my all-time favorites, Nelja Ates and posted her Son of Sinbad dance clip, among others. Even when discussing audiences and their preferences, most folks seem to agree that for the "general public", they like the glamour and the chiffon and the bedlahs. We use props that have less of an origin in traditional dance and more, again, in the 'fantasy' the Western world's created about bellydance (extensive veils, swords, for example).

A lot of clips from the 50's and 60's treat bellydance with a degree of - well, camp. We've all (and I'm sure quite a few of has compiled a stockpile of these images) seen the harem pinups, themed advertisements, etc. Heck, Vintage Oriental seems to be the result of the melding the American sensibilities with Turkish dance.

I guess, what I'm trying to say here - as much as we study and seek to elevate the artistry of bellydance, is there still room and an audience (both the general public and the bellydancing audience) for dancers that...specialize? utilize? that sort of campy kitsch 'retro' dance style and energy? Or would it be perceived as being detrimental to the art and dance as a whole? As someone who loves to dance, and who finds a lot of inspiration in that sort of time period/attitude, I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to explore.


Addendum:
I also wonder where the jeweled pasties came from, because I've recently seen 'bellydancers' in an old movie, ("She", specifically three unamed dancers in the beginning) Nelja Ates in her "Port Said" album cover (among other dancers), and even Prenses Banu (Ahem: http://www.internationalbellydancing...ncess-banu.jpg) sporting these contraptions. Were they a legitimate costume choice in that time period, or was it more of blurring between the lines of bellydance and burlesque?

I think it's entirely valid, appropriate and maybe even necessary to explore, but it has to be done with a GREAT deal of thinking and you have to take it on the chin if people criticise what you come up with.

I'm also going to put my globalisation hat on and point out that the Western world does not begin and end with the USA and the images that fed into mid-20th century American cheese were as much generated by the French and British and Russians as by early (German) Hollywood.

Good point! Especially concerning the orientalism in Europe - I'm just using the American middle eastern 'fantasy' films because that's what I know.

Still appropriate - as a small part of a larger belly dance show or in a clearly tongue in cheek event.

I think this can be used to effect... with the right background and for the right audience.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of styles can be used effectively IF:
* you have the technique to back it
* your costume is suited, secure, and complete
* you do it with a bang! There's no half-shimmying through an edgy/new piece.
* you do it where/when people can 'get' it, or you have an intro
* you have the cojones to pull it off. Like any style, if you are lacking confidence, the audience will pick that up right away and will not 'believe' anything that you do.

Where people run into problems is if:
* the costume falls short
* the dance falls short (fitness! technique! if you can't dance, no style is convincing)
* the venue is unsuited -- if this is your intro piece at a wedding, a fancy restaurant, etc., then nope. Convince first, then take your liberties.
* the piece is unsuited to your personality, costume, level of stage fright, etc. Yes, the stage can be a place where we can explore a personality other than our own, but that takes a lot of acting skills. Do you have 'em? Do you still have 'em when you're in a Jeannie costume in front of the mob?

Too many times I've seen dancers who get the idea of an interesting character, and put as much effort into it as a Halloween costume. It doesn't work. It makes me feel like they haven't respected the dance enough to learn their history, put some effort in, and make it work. On the other hand, when you do put that effort in, oh the wealth of in-jokes and kitsch to be had!

Cardinal rule of performing: do not make your audience uncomfortable.

Cheese is fine as long as it's Stilton and not plastic stuff in a tube....

I think it is possible to dance the retro American style without degenerating into camp. There is enough awareness of the style as a legitimate field of study that it can be done seriously. I do have some concerns about dancing from a kitsch standpoint, though. I understand that some dancers enjoy and make a lot of money from doing those cornball party gigs where you dress the guest of honor like a sultan and feed him grapes and all that. It's personally not my thing, and I don't know how much good it does the dance community's reputation as a whole, but I'll concede that its success depends on how much the audience is in on the joke, and how much ignorance gets in the way of realizing when it IS a joke versus when it isn't. If you're dancing at a hafla where other dancers are on the same page with you, okay (assuming you don't fall into the trap of thinking you're funny when you're really not, as in the comedy thread). Otherwise, I wonder if kitsch isn't rather like the old minstrel shows. Just because it was done doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

Originally Posted by Minajen

I also wonder where the jeweled pasties came from, because I've recently seen 'bellydancers' in an old movie, ("She", specifically three unamed dancers in the beginning) Nelja Ates in her "Port Said" album cover (among other dancers), and even Prenses Banu (Ahem: http://www.internationalbellydancing...ncess-banu.jpg) sporting these contraptions. Were they a legitimate costume choice in that time period, or was it more of blurring between the lines of bellydance and burlesque?

As far as I know, they were not. There may have been a few, isolated, "real" belly dancers working in adult or topless nightclubs where that look would have been acceptable, but for the most part, I believe the pasties were mostly because the harem girl has been a long-running burlesque/adult-entertainment character. I don't believe most legitimate dancers wore pasties any more than Catholic schoolgirls pole dance in their school uniforms. At least in the US, a lot of the dance venues from that era were family-run supperclubs, where regular costumes were scandalous enough.

Isn't there still a lot of that in modern Egyptian style? When I think of camp, I think Dina.

I will confess to coming into bellydance through a campy orientalist back door rather than an 'ethnic arts' front door.

When I signed up for my first class, I had visions of writhing about seductively to some kind of vaguely oriental music while wrapped in layers of chiffon draping. I coulndn't have named one single country of origin, and would have lapped up any explanation having to do with harems, Aladdin, or genies. I still love campy, kitschy Orientalist portrayals of bellydancers and pin-up harem girls (though I would never use that kind of art to promote myself as a dancer).

I'm embarrassed by my dance origins now, but that background helps me to understand the average student walking in the door of my studio - or at least those 'of a certain age'. I think the younger students have a much better grip, they come in just want to learn the movement vocabulary they've seen on Shakira or Sadie.

A lot of my gigs, outside of restaurants with an Arab clientele, learned everything they know about bellydancers from old movies, 60s sitcoms, and gentlemen's magazines. It's all harem fantasy to them. And they're often the ones whose wives hire me and my dancers to dance at their 60th birthday. They're paying for their own idea of what a 'bellydancer' will be, so I have to meet them halfway.

What I will NOT do:
- Treat a birthday boy or other GOH (or anyone) like a 'sultan.' Won't put a hat on him, do floorwork at his feet, or feed him grapes.
- Dance of the 7 veils. I get asked if I do one by Men Of A Certain Age as soon as they learn I bellydance, usually with a nudge and a wink. However campy & fun it might be to choreograph one, I won't feed anyone's notions that bellydance is an exotic striptease.
- Wear a face veil or wrap my veil over my nose/mouth like a burqa.
- Enter wrapped in a veil and remove it in a way that might be confused with a striptease

What I WILL do:
- Wear a coin costume & fluffy chiffon skirt & dance with finger cymbals, veil & sword when appropriate
- pose in campy, stereotypical ways for photos (palms together overhead, etc.)
- Nod to the stereotype by working I Dream of Jeannie blinks into my accents, etc.

The more I study Turkish Oryental dancers from the 60s and 70s, the less convinced I am that American dancers of that period were influenced by Hollywood. Except for swordwork, it's all there in the Turkish dancing... the veils, the floorwork, the headslides, the Orientalist drama.

It's possible the Turkish dancers were influenced by Western Orientalism, of course, and dancing to make the tourists happy. But then it's their fusion, not Americans -- either way the American dancers of the time came by it honestly!

Well, I don't know if American dancers at that period were influenced so much by orientalist films insomuch as the turkish oryantal and what is now "American Vintage Oriental" was used in these campy, kitschy contexts. And if you don't mind - how do you define camp and kitsch?


WRT the Pasties:
They seem to really only appear only on bellydancers who are Turkish (when they appear in the context of bellydance):
Nelja Ates on the cover of People (see attached)

Prenses Banu:
Interview with her here:
Interview with Belly dancer Princess Banu
Salome: In America, we have seen many of your photographs and there are several famous pictures of you with no top, just pasties over the nipple. Did you dance in these costumes or were they only for photo's? Who designed and made your dance wardrobe?

Princess Banu:In those days, in Turkey, dancers took off their skirts, it was part of the dance. I took off my top and revealed the pasties, it was my gimmick. All of my costumes were designed solely by me.

Can any of our historians and/or Turkophiles (:D) chime in the atmosphere in Turkish nightclubs in which these seem to be an 'acceptable' choice?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I understand that some dancers enjoy and make a lot of money from doing those cornball party gigs where you dress the guest of honor like a sultan and feed him grapes and all that.

There's more than one way to make a guest of honor at a birthday party be the center of attention without doing a Sultan act.

I won't do Sultan acts, but I will do the following:

1. Get the party guests up to make a debke line, and lead them in doing a very simple debke in a circle around the guest of honor while he sits in a chair

2. Take turns getting various party-goers (including the guest of honor) up to dance with me.

3. Get 2-3 male audience members up to dance, and then have them face the guest of honor so that his MALE friends/family are dancing for him - this offers a new twist on the old Sultan stereotype that's funny without perpetuating stereotypes too much or risking too much over-sexualization. Or, get the guest of honor's sister/mother to dance for him.

4. Pose for pictures with the guest of honor.


I WON'T sit on his lap, kiss him on the cheek, feed him grapes, etc. I MIGHT put a Sultan hat on him, but usually only in conjunction with #1 or #3 above.

When people hire belly dancers to perform at something like a birthday party, they're usually looking to create some memories that everybody can smile about in the years to come. They're not seeking great art, they're seeking a bit of laughs and foolishness. The key to success is to avoid sexualized nudge-nudge-wink-wink humor because that can rapidly go sour and ruin the evening for everyone, especially for the guest of honor. But other types of humor such as the debke line in a circle around the birthday boy can create memories that partygoers will enjoy reminiscing about for years.

I like a little campiness in a performance, if the dancer is confident and the music is happy. Razia and Aziza are two of my faves--for example, Razia does a darling move where she starts an earthquake shimmy and then gives her breasts a slightly shocked look and clamps them down-the audience loves it! Aziza has that cute little "tie a string to my ribcage and lift" thing. Yemaya pulled off a great traveling shimmy while miming pulling a rope. And the audience cracked up when Claudia mimicked weight lifting while doing a huge straight-leg shimmy move.

As other posters noted, this kind of campy humor does not work well if that's the only strong & confident move in the show; we'll only feel sorry about laughing nervously at a bad dancer who tries to look funny. Is she funny, or just bad? And, it works best as an accent--it's not the whole meal.

I like to use a bit of "camp" in party shows, too, like Shira and Lauren mention--the birthday audiences love it.

Somewhat OT... Whether you go to a bellygram planning to do the harem shtick or not, it is important to screen your gigs as best you can so they're not outside of your own comfort zone and ethics. I used to know a dancer who did "joke" bellygrams intentionally designed to embarrass the GOH (not "Ha!ha! Look at you being the center of attention!" but more like, "As soon as she leaves, I'm going to punch you for hiring her!"). I also know someone (a member of my own family, actually) who would be mortified at the thought of being the object of any bellygram, even Shira's #4 of simply posing for a picture with a dancer. People have a wide range of what "being part of the fun" means, and it's important to be adept at reading your audience so you recognize if "making memories for the guests" crosses a line. At least to me, these gigs are supposed to be about enjoying a moment together, and they shouldn't turn into a situation where the guest of honor wishes s/he could crawl under a rug, or the dancer feels she's being coerced into going along with a joke she doesn't find funny just because she's getting paid.

I don't know exactly how to define 'camp' or 'kitsch' When I saw the word 'kitsch' I was thinking of the threads we sometimes have about Orientalist dolls, figures, artwork, etc. So my mind went straight to Orientalism, harem girls, etc.

I think embracing that aspect of the dance is fine if the dancer isn't taking herself too seriously. Especially in a hafla or other 'industry' show where you're dancing primarily for other dancers, you could go hog wild there and milk it. But even in a GP show I think little sprinkles of references to pinup art, Cecil B. DeMille, I Dream of Jeannie etc are fine as long as they're not insulting to *real* Arab women.

The tricky bit is not going all black-face with Orientalism --- Arabs (and Gypsies) are real people, after all, not fictional creatures like Mermaids or Unicorns or fairies that we can treat like make believe (though some dancers do... especially with gypsies, but sometimes with the Orient in general). A lot of the Orientalist fantasy material is incredibly racist and inaccurately portrays the women and people of the middle east & Arab countries. My Pakistani ex-boyfriend's mother still referred to the private, family-only, women-and-children portion of their home as a 'harem.' It was, let me assure you, never filled with half-naked women in wispy garments fanning each other. We do have to be careful about imposing our American fantasies onto real people -- especially people who are currently facing a lot of racism and discrimination in the modern-day US.

As far as pasties, and Turkish dancers taking off their skirts... you know what, I don't think I even want to know if that's an 'authentic' part of Turkish bellydance history. Seriously. *la la la la laaaaa la *puts fingers in ears* lalala laaa*

I think a lot of it has to do with the venue; 'camp' and 'kitsch' tend to be about making/having fun and is best if everyone is in on the joke. I like some true kitsch at haflis and other mostly-for-the-dance-community events.

Two examples:

Many, many years ago I saw a well-known, respected dancer/teacher do a "housewife belly-dance' routine. She wore what was then common-now retro-costume complete with lots of coins and chiffon. Her heair was that short, perfectly coiffed style, her makeup very subtle and she danced sooooo sweetly. Her zills went 1,2,3 1,2,3 etc. for the whole song, her smile stayed sweet and bland, her moves perfectly executed with no fire at all. And every dance teacher in the place howled-we recognized that student immediately. Did the GP in the audience get it? Of course not-they didn't understand why we were all making fun of the nice lady.

I-old skewl, Am Cab -did a Tribal Fusion piece. Dressed in hot pink and serious face. I'm a good dancer, BTW, and did the form well. Again-the dancers loved it, the GP didn't get the joke.

Would either of these have gone over well in an artistic show, or in a restaurant? I don't think so! But, for their own venues, by the community for the community, they were perfect.

The cardinal rule of performing- in ANY art form.... is know your audience/venue.

Once you grasp that- you can do whatever you want- because you will KNOW what to do and how to do it. That's what being a performer is about. And that really REALLY comes to play when you get paid.

as a student- you can feel that out- but whatever you decide- its all or nothing- go hard or go home.

I seem to remember Morocco mentioning one time about certain venues "requiring" their dancers to perform in pasties way back when she was young in this genre. Not something she did herself, but that there were places in NYC that required it to perform there.