Thread: How does belly dance manifest in Persian culture? Please share your wisdom!

I really love persian classical and modern music, and I was thinking of approaching a lovely persian resteraunt near me ( beautiful atmosphere!) about a potential performance gig. I know about bandari, and some aspects of persian classical dance.. and I know that Persian families sometimes have belly dancers perform at weddings. What I don't know a lot about is, how a belly dancer is expected to dance at a persian function .

Is it acceptable to use Arabic music occasionally, or would that be a faux pas? Can she use Bandari music and movement and fuse them with more typically 'arab' dance interpretations? I have yet to find any examples of classical Persian dance that are not bandari... is this the only acceptable music or are there others I should know about? I've heard beautiful classical Persian music (Persian masters) but i have yet to see any one dance to it, to find out the appropriate way to interpret it authentically with a Persian audience in mind. Of all of the music I've come across the more fluid classical Persian speaks to me the most, and I'd love to be able to dance to it. Costuming? Bedlahs vs. traditional Persian 'full coverage' dress ( with the pretty Persian sleeves)

If any would like to share some wisdom, or links, or music suggestions, or videos to check out. I'm all ears!

At our local Persian restaurants, dancers perform to (and musicians play) their usual repertoire of Arabic or Turkish music. It's very nice if you know enough about Persian dance and music to throw something appropriate into your set, but it's my impression that Persians see belly dance as a neighboring art, so to speak. Costuming depends on the venue, but in my experience still falls within the realm of "regular" belly dance costuming. It would never hurt to err on the conservative side while you're figuring a venue out.

Note that all of what I say refers to restaurants only, not private parties, since all my dancing for Persians experience is in restaurants.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Persians see belly dance as a neighboring art

Excellent way to put it.

I've danced both in Persian restaurants and private gigs for Persian clients, and they LOVE it if you put a Persian song in your set. But there's no tradition of belly dance in their culture, so they expect you to use Turkish or Arabic music - I think they would be confused if you tried to use all Persian music.

Morocco has a nice little blurb about Persian dance and belly dance in this article:
Welcome to Morocco's Meanderings

My mother's side is Persian and we've always loved belly dancing at our special functions (my aunt herself wanted to be a belly dancer). In Farsi name for belly dance translates to "Arabic dance" so they expect Arabic or Turkish music. Songs like Aziza are very popular and my grandfather loves Oum Kalthoum. And yes, we all love it when a dancer throws in a Persian song for some Bandari or Baba Karam. This is a personal opinion from me and my family but to us there are some Persian songs that "work" for using belly dance movement for and most that don't. American cabaret music uses songs like "Mosafereh Azizam/Khoda Negahdar" and it works very nice for veil but when there's a song that has that strong Persian rhythm, it looks odd to be doing belly dance movement to us. At a performance to a Persian pop song, the dancer was doing pretty much 99% belly dance and when she brought my aunt up to dance my aunt was asked her what she was doing and that the movement did not match the song at all.

Originally Posted by HannahM

My mother's side is Persian and we've always loved belly dancing at our special functions (my aunt herself wanted to be a belly dancer). In Farsi name for belly dance translates to "Arabic dance" so they expect Arabic or Turkish music. Songs like Aziza are very popular and my grandfather loves Oum Kalthoum. And yes, we all love it when a dancer throws in a Persian song for some Bandari or Baba Karam. This is a personal opinion from me and my family but to us there are some Persian songs that "work" for using belly dance movement for and most that don't. American cabaret music uses songs like "Mosafereh Azizam/Khoda Negahdar" and it works very nice for veil but when there's a song that has that strong Persian rhythm, it looks odd to be doing belly dance movement to us. At a performance to a Persian pop song, the dancer was doing pretty much 99% belly dance and when she brought my aunt up to dance my aunt was asked her what she was doing and that the movement did not match the song at all.

Thank you for your honest opinion! The situation with your aunt is exactly what I'd like to avoid!

would something like this be deemed inappropriate to dance to? (thinking veil, soft expressive hands and arms)

Masters of Persian Music - Tasnif ba Man Sanama (Mowlavi) - YouTube

Download Afshari - Kamil Alipour mp3

the music with the 'strong persian rythm' could you give an example? Do you mean bandari? And do you feel should belly dancers avoid that kind of music? In fact, are there types of Persian belly dancers should avoid in general?

thank you all for your advice thus far ^_^ It's very helpful!
so far it sounds like i should avoid more than one persian song per set :P

Back when I lived in the San Jose, California area, there were a number of Persian restaurants over the years that hired dancers. They expected Arabic or Turkish music.

About the only Persian songs I ever heard anybody use were Mastom Mastom (for higher-energy sections of the show) and Gole Sangiam (for veil work). Though I should say that Gole Sangiam is kind of tricky, because it's widely known as representing beautiful, beautiful poetry set to music, and about half the Persians I know thought it was odd to use it for belly dance veil work, while the other half thought it was fine. I think it depended partly on what style of veil work the dancer used - anything that oozed sexiness would have been seen as disrespectful to the song, whereas a more spiritual approach to veil work would have received a more favorable reaction, at least among the Persians I knew.

Belly dancers in our community didn't use Persian 6/8 music. I think the 6/8 rhythm music was what Hannah was referring to when she mentioned strong Persian rhythm as being something you wouldn't want to use with belly dance.

As others have said on this thread, the Persians that I knew personally used the term "Arabic dance" to refer to belly dancing and *expected* Arabic or Turkish music and dance style in these performances. Although they liked and appreciated the Persian classical dance as well, they didn't expect to see it performed in the restaurants. The Persians I knew thought of the classical dance as something they'd expect to see on a theatrical stage, but not in a restaurant. One of my friends was married to an Iranian, and my friend NEVER did the Persian classical dance (even though she knew how) in her Persian restaurant gigs - she always did Arabic style. (I'd occasionally see her incorporate a bit of Persian classical styling into her Oriental, for a fusion effect, but she never did straight classical, and she didn't do the fusion every time, just sometimes.) She didn't use Iranian music, either - just Arabic and Turkish.

Thank You! That was incredibly informative and helpful!

I dance weekly in a Persian venue and often for Persian parties.
The above advice is wonderful.
Because Persian social dancing has hip movements as well some Persians may say that belly dance is Persian... but most know it's not.
I have found that for Arabic pop they prefer the lighter more pop stuff over say Egyptian Sha'abi. They'll sing along with older Nancy Ajram.
I used Jeneh Maryam for veil all the time
Samira Shuruk - Alf Laylah, Chantilly VA - August 2010 - YouTube

Bijan Mortazavi is a great Persian artist. He has several songs that work for a set with some Persian flair. Definitely a different feel to the dance, in my opinion. Very flowy, graceful arms, less hippy.

Originally Posted by 0Adara0

Thank you for your honest opinion! The situation with your aunt is exactly what I'd like to avoid!

would something like this be deemed inappropriate to dance to? (thinking veil, soft expressive hands and arms)

Masters of Persian Music - Tasnif ba Man Sanama (Mowlavi) - YouTube

Download Afshari - Kamil Alipour mp3

the music with the 'strong persian rythm' could you give an example? Do you mean bandari? And do you feel should belly dancers avoid that kind of music? In fact, are there types of Persian belly dancers should avoid in general?

oh I totally meant a 6/8 rhythm like Shira said. I think if the belly dancer wants to put in a folk dance like bandari she totally should and the audience will love it but should then keep it 100% that style. For example, when my Persian family came to visit Japan we put on a restaurant show and used Arabic and Turkish music but at the very end put on fedoras to do a baba karam dance, then a bandari dance (after taking off the fedoras of course) but we didn't fuse anything. Songs that I particularly enjoy seeing/dancing myself in a more "belly dance" style are Matsom Mastom, Khoda Negahdar, Dele Divooneh, or Gole Sangam (even though it is tricky like Shira said, I haven't attempted to dance it myself). I don't know if I can really explain in a way that makes sense...maybe because some of the songs I listed are "oldie-classic" but not "traditional classic" so they are able to be interpreted into belly dance and some of them are really high energy and will totally get the audience pumped. The more traditional music uses a lot of 6/8 and/or match the movements of classical Persian dance more than belly dance to me.

Also,for classical music, I'd really look into finding a translation of the lyrics, as some groups who play classical Persian music tend to use very spiritual lyrics and I don't think it's so appropriate to belly dance to songs that are singing about god/religion.


If you can do baba karam, I highly recommend it, we all love a good baba karam dance :D

by the way for the first song, I wasn't sure but I double checked with my mother and the first song is using work by Rumi....Rumi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rumi is like Shakespeare to Iranians. It's sufi, it's spiritual but one cannot say it's religious musicso it's very tricky. It's not religious incantations or any of the suras or hadiths of the Quran or anything. She said it's "too intimate for belly dancing, it's more meditative". I personally wouldn't use Rumi for belly dancing either.

I can see what you mean, and I can definitely respect that. But it makes me a little sad :( that particular style moves me very intensely because it's so deep and meditative, it's a shame it's seen as culturally taboo to dance to. It's so beautiful!

Originally Posted by 0Adara0

I can see what you mean, and I can definitely respect that. But it makes me a little sad :( that particular style moves me very intensely because it's so deep and meditative, it's a shame it's seen as culturally taboo to dance to. It's so beautiful!

It's a very tricky grey area. And it depends on what type dance. And again I'm only speaking on behalf of the opinions of my relatives, not every Iranian out there. With belly dance I think there's definitely a risk of offence because how deep Iranians feel for Rumi and because honestly there's some prejudice between Iranians and Arabs so taking something that Persians so strongly identify culturally as their own and then fusing an Arabic dance with it...? You see where I'm getting at? ;)
That being said, Ballet Afsaneh does a lot of sufi-inspired dances and classical Persian dance to music using rumi poetry and because it stays within the culture (as far as I've seen there's not any "belly dance" in them), it seems much more appropriate and my family loves watching it.

But ultimately, it's really up to you :).

I can see what you mean, and I can definitely respect that. But it makes me a little sad :( that particular style moves me very intensely because it's so deep and meditative, it's a shame it's seen as culturally taboo to dance to. It's so beautiful!

While I completely understand your point and wouldn't dream of disrespecting some one's culture, it saddens me that most people view bellydance as only something fun or sexy, and not suited to deeper, more meaningful, and more spiritual/meditative interpretation. I feel those pieces are do heartfelt and soulful, it urges me to express and empathize with that intense and emotive music through dancing. In the same way that these singers and musicians were so moved by rumi's poetry that they wanted to create music to elevate it to a new interpretation. But again,realizing that I am indeed an 'outsider' I would never wish do have any one believe I misinterpreted or disrespected something that was so important to their cultural heritage

Originally Posted by 0Adara0

I can see what you mean, and I can definitely respect that. But it makes me a little sad :( that particular style moves me very intensely because it's so deep and meditative, it's a shame it's seen as culturally taboo to dance to. It's so beautiful!

While I completely understand your point and wouldn't dream of disrespecting some one's culture, it saddens me that most people view bellydance as only something fun or sexy, and not suited to deeper, more meaningful, and more spiritual/meditative interpretation. I feel those pieces are do heartfelt and soulful, it urges me to express and empathize with that intense and emotive music through dancing. In the same way that these singers and musicians were so moved by rumi's poetry that they wanted to create music to elevate it to a new interpretation. But again,realizing that I am indeed an 'outsider' I would never wish do have any one believe I misinterpreted or disrespected something that was so important to their cultural heritage

I don't think it's only that people mistake belly dance is only "fun and sexy", it's essentially that belly dance is an Arabic dance and not Persian. And that "Persian pride" can be quite intense. It's hard spot to be in for me because I understand both sides but that persian pride does come out in me too.

Venue and costuming come into play, too. If you were invited to do some sort of Rumi-inspired spiritual dance at an ecumenical event in a fully modest costume, I suspect people would perceive it as being more respectful than doing the same number in a less modest costume in a restaurant. Ethnicity and religious identity are sensitive subjects, especially when you're on the other side of the line, and you can't blame folks for not wanting to feel that you're turning--or letting other people turn--things they hold dear into casual entertainment. Even if you are totally sincere and committed to doing a respectful presentation, you can't guarantee the audience will see it that way, and the likelihood that a crowd going out to eat will be receptive to an intensely spiritual performance is not terribly high. Generally people are at a restaurant to eat, socialize, and have fun, not to have or watch a dancer have an interfaith artistic moment. Unless you've been specifically asked, I'd assume restaurants and parties aren't the right showcase for that kind of piece.

Those you have answered before me had great tips and insight.
Even if the people of iranian descent are not strangers to arabic(or indian!) culture and definitly relates&enjoys,they have their own rich culture.

I´ve trained arabic and persian styles,and like to separate them on gigs rather than mixing so that persian is performed in clothes that resemble iranian dress and to persian music:i.e. first set is arabic("bellydance"),second set is persian with more classical as intro,baba karam,pop&bandari when it´s audience interaction time.

They are some of the loveliest audiences you can meet as a dancer!

Originally Posted by 0Adara0

I can see what you mean, and I can definitely respect that. But it makes me a little sad :( that particular style moves me very intensely because it's so deep and meditative, it's a shame it's seen as culturally taboo to dance to. It's so beautiful!

While I completely understand your point and wouldn't dream of disrespecting some one's culture, it saddens me that most people view bellydance as only something fun or sexy, and not suited to deeper, more meaningful, and more spiritual/meditative interpretation. I feel those pieces are do heartfelt and soulful, it urges me to express and empathize with that intense and emotive music through dancing. In the same way that these singers and musicians were so moved by rumi's poetry that they wanted to create music to elevate it to a new interpretation. But again,realizing that I am indeed an 'outsider' I would never wish do have any one believe I misinterpreted or disrespected something that was so important to their cultural heritage

Here are some clips like HannahM mentioned..some examples of a more "spiritual expressing" in dance (to persian music):







Here´s my colleague that I study persian for,and her student in a duo,just to show an example of one style I´ve trained(this is persian fusion):

if you would like to see examples of iran's most famous bellydancer and persian dancer - search the forum for my previous posts of videos of jemileh. she does both arabic and persian dancing and is known by pretty much every persian in the world. she was on tv and in many movies before the revolution and is well respected as a dancer. she does raqs arabi, bandari, babakaram,, mahalli, well..pretty much every style!

here i found you the link:

Jamileh

Thank you for this informative thread.
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Jillanna Babb

Originally Posted by jillanna

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I have danced in several Persian restaurants and was never asked to use Persian music. And in my experience restaurant owners are normally not shy to tell you what to do

But one thing I can tell you is that a group of Persians went absolutely wild when I danced to Tahtill Shibbak!

MEISSOUN

Originally Posted by meissoun

But one thing I can tell you is that a group of Persians went absolutely wild when I danced to Tahtill Shibbak!

MEISSOUN

Same here! No problem at all getting people up and dancing!

Originally Posted by 0Adara0

I can see what you mean, and I can definitely respect that. But it makes me a little sad :( that particular style moves me very intensely because it's so deep and meditative, it's a shame it's seen as culturally taboo to dance to. It's so beautiful!

While I completely understand your point and wouldn't dream of disrespecting some one's culture, it saddens me that most people view bellydance as only something fun or sexy, and not suited to deeper, more meaningful, and more spiritual/meditative interpretation. I feel those pieces are do heartfelt and soulful, it urges me to express and empathize with that intense and emotive music through dancing. In the same way that these singers and musicians were so moved by rumi's poetry that they wanted to create music to elevate it to a new interpretation. But again,realizing that I am indeed an 'outsider' I would never wish do have any one believe I misinterpreted or disrespected something that was so important to their cultural heritage

I totally understand what you mean. I am a big fan of Persian Music in general and LOVE that "strong Persian rhythm". But because I love it so much I have started learning the traditional style that does fit this music and I dream of being able to perform it as fluently as I do bellydance. However it is a completely different style and I know it will take me a while. But if the music calls you maybe you should consider that as well. There are wonderful teachers in the US! I also love Miriam's performances and she is very inspiring. There is also Helen Eriksen, Robin Friend and Laurel Victoria Gray. Look up their websites too which are full of info and tips.

"Arabi" dance is popular in Iran, but the cabaret style is exotic to them, reserved for entertainers like Jamileh. The traditional dances from Arab peoples in southern Iran are where Iranians get their hip movements from (Bandari), which are generally referred to as "gher" in "mahali" dances like you see in dance parties and Baba Karam. In most Iranian dances there are no or barely any hip movements (classical/miniature, gilaki, azari, kordi, qashqai, sufi).

Like others mentioned, Iranians like a combination of Arabic & Persian mostly, but there are certainly purists out there. And yes, always go for happy & upbeat.