Thread: Doesn't ANYONE Belly Dance anymore?

Originally Posted by lplmuk

I have never up to now had a belly dance teacher who has bemoaned the existance of tribal and fusion only dishonest label.

Sadly I have heard and seen disrespect from tribal teachers, one a very well known American instructor at a major festival. Locally the tribal and fusion belly dancers and belly dancers, I know, show respect and appreciation for the good examples of the different dances but I have felt tension elsewhere .

Well, this is kind of an oxymoron, no? "I have nothing against you fusion dancers, but really you're are dishonest in the way you label yourself". Or am I misunderstanding that?

And to address the second point, I think a majority of us have seen disrespect to some degree, by one style or another. Experiences and tension will vary wildly by locale and exposure and event. I have seen disrespect and worse at Egyptian events. *shrug* It doesn't mean that all Egyptian dancers are like that.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Because people who had never entertained thoughts of taking belly dance classes are seeing tribal/fusion dance on stages at Lollapalooza, Burning Man, Wildfire, alternative circuses, any number of countercultural venues, and seeing tribal/fusion dancers performing with the bands they like (Beats Antique, for example, has huge crossover success between the tribal/fusion crowd and the goth/burner crowd).

This makes perfect sense, thank you. I've been too busy in my little world over the years (job + raising kids) to participate in this stuff... And I completely agree that traditional ME dance will need to raise its profile, without engendering suspicion or paranoia, to draw the same numbers as Tribal into classes. You've given me food for thought. One of the things I learned working with Lynette and Gilded Serpent is the demographics for our community. Most of her readers are single females between the ages of 18-35 with an above average income. People like me (married, multiple kids, over 50) are the exception to the rule.

As I learned in business school - know your customers. That's why I asked you all. There's an amazing amount of collective knowledge on this forum.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

One thing is certain: nothing stays the same forever. Still we can respect what is classical AND what is new, cutting edge; aren't they both part of the same yin/yang?

If it wasn't for Ariellah, I would know *nothing* about Fifi.

Still we can respect what is classical AND what is new, cutting edge; aren't they both part of the same yin/yang?

That is true, but when we place oriental dance in the "classical" boat and TF in the "cutting edge" boat we frequently ignore all the oriental dance that is alive and breathing and new and taking risks and being edgy in its home countries, leaving people to think that oriental dance is "oldschool" and TF is "newschool" .

People like me who largely prefer dancing to old music probably don't help, but hell, I'm old and fat and I'll dance to music I like that's as old as me if I want to. You want to see my non-ME music collection. You'd totally understand why I gravitate to that music, then.

And I see nobody dissing Tempest for locating a lot of her costuming and the feel of her dance in the 1920s and before!

I like it better if people identify tribal as a western reinterpretation of traditional ME and other Silk Road dances and TF as a post-modern reinterpretation of that. Because TF at its best is massively pomo.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

In short, it's not that these students are making an active choice between tribal/fusion on the one hand and some form of traditional belly dance on the other--they honestly don't know that there is a choice, and once they do perhaps become more educated and learn that there is a choice, they may be perfectly content to stay where they are, since they are already doing it and loving it, or it's what they always planned to do.

So to be perfectly honest about today's situation, traditional ME dance teachers should be THANKFUL that Tribal is around because it is bringing us students.

I get it. And I'm not being snarky. I mean it in the truest sense of the word. If Tribal dancers didn't call what they do 'belly dance" we would have FAR fewer students. I can see this in my students. Almost all of the ones I have today came to me from tribal. This wasn't true 10 years ago, but it is today.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

The business side of the dance and the need to earn money becomes a gag for many.

The need to look like you dont have any opinions, all embracing and loving everyone is so much better for the pocket.

Well, I hope that none of my Egyptian teachers are thinking that. I mean, I understand what you say about the bottom line but at the same I honestly wouldn't like to be taught by someone who secretly despises me because I happen to also like ATS and fusion too.

Caroline, I want to try and understand your (and the other dancers that have spoken openly against fusion or its label) point of view. First a little scenario, if you please: I would like you to close your eyes and imagine for a moment that ATS/ITS/fusion never existed. No BDSS/Shakira/Rachel Brice/Solace/Beats Antique/garter pants/arm warmers. None of it. Got it? Now, open your eyes and tell me what you see. Describe what your world, your dance, your school is like. Tell me what would be better without fusion. (Or worse? Would there be anything worse?) Is there anything that stays the same? Who is in your class? Who isn't? What are your events like? What is your audience like? Heck, what is Bhuz like?

Originally Posted by Serpentine

And I completely agree that traditional ME dance will need to raise its profile, without engendering suspicion or paranoia, to draw the same numbers as Tribal into classes. You've given me food for thought. One of the things I learned working with Lynette and Gilded Serpent is the demographics for our community. Most of her readers are single females between the ages of 18-35 with an above average income. People like me (married, multiple kids, over 50) are the exception to the rule.

As I learned in business school - know your customers. That's why I asked you all. There's an amazing amount of collective knowledge on this forum.

There's one other thing you can do. Social events. For real. It is so easy for a bunch of ATSers to get get together and dance, just for fun. But for Egyptian? It is either class, or the stage (at haflas or recitals). When I first got my Suhaila DVDs, I think I spent more time watching the circle dance at the end, because it looked so much fun. (A small circle of friends, one girl dancing in the middle for a bit, she gets to pick the next dancer, etc...) Since then I have searched for like-minded souls to do the same with, but alas, everyone is too busy to take on organizing something like that in my area and none of the Egyptian schools are offering anything like that near me. There are a few of open floor type events, but it is not the same vibe. (You want everyone to have a shot at the spotlight for a short period of time, but not something choreographed and not on a stage. )

Originally Posted by kemintiri

There's one other thing you can do. Social events. For real. It is so easy for a bunch of ATSers to get get together and dance, just for fun. But for Egyptian? It is either class, or the stage (at haflas or recitals). When I first got my Suhaila DVDs, I think I spent more time watching the circle dance at the end, because it looked so much fun. (A small circle of friends, one girl dancing in the middle for a bit, she gets to pick the next dancer, etc...) Since then I have searched for like-minded souls to do the same with, but alas, everyone is too busy to take on organizing something like that in my area and none of the Egyptian schools are offering anything like that near me. There are a few of open floor type events, but it is not the same vibe. (You want everyone to have a shot at the spotlight for a short period of time, but not something choreographed and not on a stage. )

This, oh this. And when you have "mixed" social events you find that dancers who don't do tribal won't dance socially/improvise because... the ATSers have taken over the floor. This is not something they do on purpose to be evil. It's just, they get up there and do what they always do and if you happen to be in the way of their choochoo arc or get one of their pointy elbows in your head that is your problem. There is no "social dance floor" version of ATS. You get in line or you get out.

Someone online somewhere once said something about oriental dancers wilfully doing arabesques and things in their way when they do ATS at events... I would about guarantee that if the dancers in question are not monster egomaniacs, the dancer was responding to perceived aggression on the floor. And it's NOT that the ATS dancers are being aggressive, it's just that their dance form IS aggressive when it's happening right next to you. My old teacher remarked once that the kinds of movements ATS uses reminded her of what she used to do when she was dancing in restaurants and creepy people started trying to get close to her.

It would be no different if people started doing ballet on the dance floor. It would be feet in your face everywhere.

However, in the Olden Tymes of the early 90s and before, there were circle dances and suchlike getting taught. Delilah does some kind of circle dance thingy and she's not tribal. In truth there was tons of creative fusion - some good, a lot kind of cringeworthy - in Anciente Tymes, so you can't actually blame tribal for that. People were poncing about doing pharonic, which is entirely made up, for instance. (I want to do pharonic fusion theatre dance to Cleopatra. WHY don't I have a dance company of minions who do what I want!)

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

That is true, but when we place oriental dance in the "classical" boat and TF in the "cutting edge" boat we frequently ignore all the oriental dance that is alive and breathing and new and taking risks and being edgy in its home countries, leaving people to think that oriental dance is "oldschool" and TF is "newschool" .

People like me who largely prefer dancing to old music probably don't help, but hell, I'm old and fat and I'll dance to music I like that's as old as me if I want to.

I don't know about that. Classical is classical because there's a reason it is still here after all these years. It is still relevant and beautiful and can certainly take risks. Cutting edge is double edged: it can can grow/adapt/morph into something beautiful that will endure (perhaps like American Cabaret?) or it will fall upon itself and die and become a blip in dance history (perhaps like Vogue or Macarena?). Besides, we already have "old school" ATS. I don't think these terms carry the stigmata they once did.

Also, I don't mind older teachers. If anything, I have a favorable prejudice in that I tend to assume they have more experience and I seek them out. I don't mind old music either. Good is good, no matter what the date is on the package.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Then they talk to the dancers, or pick up their cards, and learn that they too could take classes and learn to do this dance, which they don't see any reason not to call belly dance because they don't know any better.

Not just that, look at the titles of the DVDs or workshops, be it ATS or Tribal Fusion. It is called "Fat Chance BellyDance", "Tribal Fusion Bellydance", "Gothic Bellydance", etc... You can't tell someone "what you do is not bellydance!" in a forum online and expect a positive reaction when everything they have seen has told them the contrary. It's like "you know, I'm just the student trying to learn here. If you have an issue with the wording, perhaps take it to the people who have created it because they will be in a better position than me to explain to you why they have chosen this label."

Classical is classical because there's a reason it is still here after all these years. It is still relevant and beautiful and can certainly take risks.

Of course, but what about modern Cairo style and modern shaabi and whatnot? Randa is not a classical dancer. Does she draw on dancers of old, hell yes, but... she's contemporary. Very contemporary and groundbreaking and suchlike.

And, you know, there's the posture and suchlike. Standing up straight when you dance. Huge difference. I teach that, but quite a few people in my town don't seem to. If I can do one thing, I, like Hadia, would like oriental dancers to stop squatting! (I gather it's the norm in tribal.)

Originally Posted by kemintiri

First a little scenario, if you please: I would like you to close your eyes and imagine for a moment that ATS/ITS/fusion never existed. [...] Describe what your world, your dance, your school is like. Tell me what would be better without fusion. (Or worse? Would there be anything worse?) Is there anything that stays the same? Who is in your class? Who isn't? What are your events like?

This was directed at Caroline, but isn't the answer obvious? Wouldn't it look like the dance community before the tribal stuff came along? Wouldn't the classes consist mostly of people wanting to do traditional belly dance without any awareness of the other possibilities that didn't exist back then? There are a few old film clips floating around (one of Jamila teaching, one of Bert, probably a few others), and the classes were mostly hobbyists looking to do something exotic for fun, and a few students with an eye for professional performing, just like now. Pretty much the main difference is that students are encouraged to wear workout clothes to class now, instead of costumes.

What is your audience like?

This part probably has changed, because the ethnic nightclubs stopped being embraced by the younger generations, so mostly other dancers.

Heck, what is Bhuz like?

It would look like the old MEDlist without the bottleneck of a moderator. There are plenty of threads on Bhuz that don't have any visible tribal presence. On some boards (e.g., MT&S), they outnumber the mixed and tribal threads by a substantial margin.

Also, there were lots of students who became interested in the dance about ten years ago because of Shakira, which, in fairness, is a representation of fusion, but not tribal fusion. The ethnic side would have had a bump of popularity without tribal. The traditional styles have cycled in and out of popularity without tribal.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

There's one other thing you can do. Social events. For real. It is so easy for a bunch of ATSers to get together and dance, just for fun. But for Egyptian? It is either class, or the stage (at haflas or recitals).

This is a side effect of the way the dance has been commodified via the teaching of choreography, not something that is inherent to the Egyptian style. The idea that there is no such thing as a "social" style of Egyptian dance would come as a huge surprise to many Egyptians. Even on the folkloric side, Reda adapted social dances done by everyday folks. Many traditional BD teachers don't emphasize the dance as a social, improvised activity, and many students are never exposed to thinking in terms of anything but the dance as a formal, theatrical presentation. Our odd, glitchy way of teaching the dance doesn't represent the whole story.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

That is true, but when we place oriental dance in the "classical" boat and TF in the "cutting edge" boat we frequently ignore all the oriental dance that is alive and breathing and new and taking risks and being edgy in its home countries, leaving people to think that oriental dance is "oldschool" and TF is "newschool" .

People like me who largely prefer dancing to old music probably don't help, but hell, I'm old and fat and I'll dance to music I like that's as old as me if I want to. You want to see my non-ME music collection. You'd totally understand why I gravitate to that music, then.

And I see nobody dissing Tempest for locating a lot of her costuming and the feel of her dance in the 1920s and before!

I like it better if people identify tribal as a western reinterpretation of traditional ME and other Silk Road dances and TF as a post-modern reinterpretation of that. Because TF at its best is massively pomo.

Hi Zumarrad, let me clarify, I don't break out oriental dance vs tribal, but rather old and new within oriental, AND make a distinction between oriental and tribal, tribal/fusion.

But, for the sake of my argument, maybe I overgeneralized. Apologies for the confusion, I agree with you completely.

On the other hand, I also agree with kementiri - her eloquent argument about the nature of classical art speaks to me!

Oh well I am confused as usual:)

I started an occasional event called Beledi Lounge which is not explicitly not-tribal but IS not-tribal - music is ME only and people are encouraged to dance socially using their ME-style movements. I did this because I was sick of watching non-tribal dancers hug the corners at haflas.
There are deliberately only a very few performances and the rest of the night is just a bunch of Arabic music of various types for people to listen to, dance to, whatever they want. So it is a party with a BD flavour. And because I am a big wanker I play a really big mix, everything from classical pieces to khaleegy pop and all that's in between. If they don't dance to it they can at least be exposed to it, right? DAMNED if I can get people to dance a lot though. They're always "oh we need more drinks first"... I have found it hard to get Kiwis Just Dancing without booze. One event that did work well was, there was a nice Turkish restaurant where a friend danced. Some students of mine had been to some workshops and bemoaned the fact that the tribal dancers could "do improv" when they could not. I was all "but of course you can improvise, you know movements, you know ways to put them together, you know how this music goes ..." and then we went for a dinner one day after class at the restaurant, and they had a few drinks and got up and danced to the music that was being played. Lots were saying "oh gosh we never realised, we CAN improvise!" But I've never been able to replicate that quite the same.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

...
Someone online somewhere once said something about oriental dancers wilfully doing arabesques and things in their way when they do ATS at events...

This is baffling to me. Open dance floor music is not generally arabesque appropriate music.
But ANYWAY...
The whole social dancing/improvising/circle dancing thing.
I teach belly dance. Egyptian... but with comparisons with other styles for understanding.
As I was taught - Egyptian until quite recently WAS improvised. I teach improv. I encourage improv. I teach improvisation exercises, theories and concepts. We talk about the social aspects of dancing along with the culture. I also teach debke and have started every now and again having a "girls night out" for my students at a club where I work (live Arab band, 99% Arab clientele).
I have girls who have come from other styles. But- I've taken classes and/or workshops in many other styles. I have enough of an understanding of them that it's not "for student retention/money" that I don't disparage other styles- it's out of respect. I think at least having a small bit of understanding helps me communicate more clearly about other styles. I also go to Pennsic and other SCA type events, so come from a background of casual improvising around a fire...AND used to be at goth/industrial clubs a bunch (cross over)... AND was a dance major- they teach both improvisation and choreography classes to western dancers at the school where I went.

In our area we also have a couple schools that are HIGHLY choreography based. They run their curriculum based on "here's a choreography, buy a sparkly costume and we put you in a staged student show." AND they hold regular dance parties for the social aspect of it. I think they're utilizing all angles by appealing to the "I want to be a princess" AND the "I want a community feel."

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

On the other hand, I also agree with kementiri - her eloquent argument about the nature of classical art speaks to me!

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Originally Posted by kemintiri

I think you would like this: Why Beauty Matters | Watch Free Documentary Online

(and thank you!)

Thank YOU, I will watch this!

On beauty - my dad is a painter too and we have had some humdinger arguments over the years, among other things about creativity, his #1 thing; and mine, beauty, classicism; now those are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And of course, eye of the beholder, art without creativity is dead, etc:)

Wish you'd been there:)

Anyway, in some cultures beauty means more than surface appearance I think, like the Dineh I believe; probably also the Greeks - a reflection of inner harmony, form/function: the Golden Section, spirals of galaxies and sunflowers: things growing.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

And, you know, there's the posture and suchlike. Standing up straight when you dance. Huge difference. I teach that, but quite a few people in my town don't seem to. If I can do one thing, I, like Hadia, would like oriental dancers to stop squatting! (I gather it's the norm in tribal.)

I, in part, blame Rachel Brice's first DVD on some of the squatty tribal dancing. In the drill sections she goes into a neutral dance posture that is quite deep; thankfully in Serpentine she has worked this out. I always tell people to straighten their knee then relax it just a little, and it took serious knee pain while dancing to figure out this is better than the squat. I take some of what you see in tribal as misinterpretation of what's being done on a DVD or uncorrected posture issues.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Well, I hope that none of my Egyptian teachers are thinking that. I mean, I understand what you say about the bottom line but at the same I honestly wouldn't like to be taught by someone who secretly despises me because I happen to also like ATS and fusion too.

Caroline, I want to try and understand your (and the other dancers that have spoken openly against fusion or its label) point of view. First a little scenario, if you please: I would like you to close your eyes and imagine for a moment that ATS/ITS/fusion never existed. No BDSS/Shakira/Rachel Brice/Solace/Beats Antique/garter pants/arm warmers. None of it. Got it? Now, open your eyes and tell me what you see. Describe what your world, your dance, your school is like. Tell me what would be better without fusion. (Or worse? Would there be anything worse?) Is there anything that stays the same? Who is in your class? Who isn't? What are your events like? What is your audience like? Heck, what is Bhuz like?

Tourbeau answered the questions.

Believe it or not, I have been around longer than ATS in the UK. I was one of the first few to buy the Fat Chance DVd's and dabble in the style. I got bored very quickly but others didnt... if I had a preference I still prefer this type of ATS to others that fused and followed.

I remember exactly what that world of BD in the UK looked like and there was some fusion going on.. people did comedy dances and fused flamenco and the likes... most didnt actually realise they were fusing and many still dont.

I remember a period where people started to work on identifying styles and groups of dancers collected to bring in teachers who increased our education about Saidi, hagalla, Mahmoud Reda etc. We started going to Egypt and Morocco and learning Tunisian from Leyla Haddad. We had people whgo liked folklore and wore Alegerian and Tunisian costumes.. then slowly but surely it retreated back into a big unidentifiable mush.

Alternative dance stands alone very well in the UK and we have a number of festivals dedicated to it. Can we say the same about ME dance? not really. Even within ME dance, we have haflah's were people think they are belly dancing when wafting about to a Sting number.

Like LizaJ stated, I dont want to see these style disappear.. I just want people to know and understand the difference and make educated choices when deciding what they want to do... and go to different places to do it and see it. Is that really too much to ask?...
and if I am really going to be honest here.. yes I do get very bored watching ATS/ITS and fusion.. I really hate most of the music and despise Beat Antique and the likes. I also know that most of my tribal friends (of which I have a few)get terribly bored watching ME dance and dont really like the music or get it either.. I just wish people would be a bit more honest about that.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Well, this is kind of an oxymoron, no? "I have nothing against you fusion dancers, but really you're are dishonest in the way you label yourself". Or am I misunderstanding that?

And to address the second point, I think a majority of us have seen disrespect to some degree, by one style or another. Experiences and tension will vary wildly by locale and exposure and event. I have seen disrespect and worse at Egyptian events. *shrug* It doesn't mean that all Egyptian dancers are like that.

I do believe that once you take away the music and the culture, it is no longer belly dance. So why call it that?
Calling fusions which may use similar movements but don't use the music of the ME and North Africa
are something else. That doesn't make a dance any less, you don't degrade what you are doing if what you do is well-thought out and well-rehearsed fusion.I know some of you would rather watch bad belly dance but not me, I'd rather be entertained by someone who has created an interesting fusion than someone who has slopped around the dance floor approximating a figure of eight ,throwing undistinguishable hip drop,wafting a veil back and forth.
I also, as an organiser, don't have a problem with a mixed programme..it's the quality,the effort, the dedication of the students that matter and the honesty to say "What I am offering this time isn't belly dance" Equally I was very very happy to attend a hafla last Saturday that was overwhelmingly belly dance to ME music.( Actually that organiser does accept a few tribal or fusion acts..it's just that the tribal didn't show!)
When I gave the account of my experiences of tribal /Egyptian tensions..they were just a personal exprience. It was an American ATS instructor dissing the Egyptan classes going on around her. I was very surprised as I haven't heard anything like it in the UK. I have to admit I have seen dancers "pushed off the floor" when tribal girls get going but equally I have been "pushed off " the floor when belly dancers started doing class routines that the rest of the partygoers couldn't join in and been at one where the teacher/organiser started a belly "line" dance n(which wasn't much fun when I wanted just to dance to a band)
Speaking of which I realise how valuable to a hafla is a live band to get dancers up and connecting as solo performers improv'ing and for boppers letting their hair down. Pity it's just such an investment.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

And because I am a big wanker I play a really big mix, everything from classical pieces to khaleegy pop and all that's in between. If they don't dance to it they can at least be exposed to it, right? DAMNED if I can get people to dance a lot though. They're always "oh we need more drinks first"... I have found it hard to get Kiwis Just Dancing without booze.

The most prominent organizer of our local haflas does similar, but she adds the occasional non-ME song. If she played "Kashmir" by Led Zeppelin, students would rush onto the floor. If she played something by Beats Antique, the tribal students would mass on the floor. If she played "Brick House" by the Commodores, practically everyone would get up to dance. When she plays ME music, the results are mixed. Older, classical instrumentals usually generate the least interest. Maybe only a couple of dancers will get out there, effectively turning social dancing into performance for an audience, and often with veils (which, IMHO, may represent a fear that they aren't comfortable dancing to slow, complex music without a prop). When she plays modern pop, that tends to do better, but the results are spotty, and most students appear to have little recognition of dabke music when they hear it. The number of ME songs capable of generating the same "Ooh, I love this song!" eagerness to the dance floor that the Western songs enjoy is regrettably small.

I believe there are two main parts to this problem: (1) oriental students don't know how to break through the wall of improvisation, and sometimes want to try but don't know how to break through in sensible ways, so fear holds them back, and (2) students simply aren't being exposed to enough music. When a teacher only plays a small number of records because they're the songs that her small number of dances fit to, it fosters this kind of shallow, tentative understanding.

I agree very much with what Badriya said about the Burning Man type of scenes influencing people into the non-traditional forms and with what Zumarrad said regarding the fact that we live in the digital age.

On that note...

Something I noticed in my area, is that the non-traditional (fusion, experimental, etc.) dancers and teachers were much more quick to adopt technology and social media into their marketing than the more traditional bellydance teachers were. The non-traditional dancers were on Tribe and Youtube, then Faceboook and Twitter. Meanwhile the old guard were putting up a few flyers, having a rarely updated website and calling it good. The experimental dancers were more open to pushing themselves out to people, while the old school dancers were sitting back and waiting for people to come to them and then wondering why their classes were dwindling.Many of them still do that.

I hate to generalize, but on a psychological level, I can understand this. People who are open to forging a new path in dance are also likely to be open to adopting to new forms of technology and new ways of communicating. They're more likely to market themselves on multiple platforms, and thus they're going to attract more students. I'm not saying this is universal, but this is definitely the case in my city.

To be fair, I know that the non-traditional teachers in my area are also struggling, but they seem to have a stronger foothold at the moment than the other teachers, even though the more traditional teachers have more decades of experience.

Originally Posted by rachelw

I agree very much with what Badriya said about the Burning Man type of scenes influencing people into the non-traditional forms and with what Zumarrad said regarding the fact that we live in the digital age.

On that note...

Something I noticed in my area, is that the non-traditional (fusion, experimental, etc.) dancers and teachers were much more quick to adopt technology and social media into their marketing than the more traditional bellydance teachers were. The non-traditional dancers were on Tribe and Youtube, then Faceboook and Twitter. Meanwhile the old guard were putting up a few flyers, having a rarely updated website and calling it good. The experimental dancers were more open to pushing themselves out to people, while the old school dancers were sitting back and waiting for people to come to them and then wondering why their classes were dwindling.Many of them still do that.

I hate to generalize, but on a psychological level, I can understand this. People who are open to forging a new path in dance are also likely to be open to adopting to new forms of technology and new ways of communicating. They're more likely to market themselves on multiple platforms, and thus they're going to attract more students. I'm not saying this is universal, but this is definitely the case in my city.

To be fair, I know that the non-traditional teachers in my area are also struggling, but they seem to have a stronger foothold at the moment than the other teachers, even though the more traditional teachers have more decades of experience.

I saw a similar phenomenon in my area but the split was between ages rather than styles. Younger dancers were more likely to be online than older dancers.

I have a question for the dancers on this thread who love to do tribal and fusion styles.

What would your reaction be if you were invited to a hafla whose "rules" said, "Tribal style is welcome, but you MUST dance to Middle Eastern music"? Would you choose a nice Middle Eastern piece such as a taqsim or drum solo and perform at that hafla, or would you feel alienated at being told you can't use Western music and stay away?

I'm chiming in late to this thread, but I have been following it with interest. A couple of years ago, the largest, best-organized group of dancers in our community (The Middle Eastern Dance Guild of Eugene, or MEDGE) medge.org was experiencing conflict and unhappiness because the number of fusion/ITS performances to non-Western music was creeping higher and higher and threatening to engulf the monthly shows. After 18 years in existence, with clearly written guidelines stating that Middle Eastern music, dancing and costuming was the preferred form, the fusion dancers were becoming a very large presence.

The publicity coordinator (me) threatened to quit because of the lack of truth in advertising to the public - every month we announced in the papers that we were presenting "Dances of the Middle East," and that's NOT what was happening at the shows.

The organization actually had to hire a professional mediator. A membership meeting was held and through an excellent process, with informal speakers representing both sides of the issue and after brainstorming as a group and breaking into small groups, the group re-affirmed the organizaiton's original mission statement ("to provide a venue and to foster enjoyment and understanding of Middle Eastern dance") and performance guidelines.

One or two fusion performances would be allowed per month, and would be announced as such.

Now, a couple of years later, the fusion dancers have formed their own group and are presenting regularly-scheduled fusion-friendly shows. Their next one is going to have a burlesque group as the featured performers. (I don't believe that belly dance and burlesque should be mixed in the same show, but that is becoming increasingly frequent in our region.)

The monthly MEDGE shows have returned to the "belly dance" shows that they had always been, and the group is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. There are a nice group of younger performers coming up to replace the dinosaurs like me.

I am proud that MEDGE took a stand, while almost everywhere else the dance organizations that were started by dancers interested in Middle Eastern music and culture have not held the line. A real effort is made at each show to inform the audience about the dances they are seeing.

I wish the fusion-friendly group well, and the relations between the groups are amicable. People who predicted dire results from sticking to our original goals have been proved wrong. There is not a huge fracture in the community, and both groups are doing well with attendance at their shows.

Originally Posted by rachelw

Something I noticed in my area, is that the non-traditional (fusion, experimental, etc.) dancers and teachers were much more quick to adopt technology and social media into their marketing than the more traditional bellydance teachers were. The non-traditional dancers were on Tribe and Youtube, then Faceboook and Twitter. Meanwhile the old guard were putting up a few flyers, having a rarely updated website and calling it good. The experimental dancers were more open to pushing themselves out to people, while the old school dancers were sitting back and waiting for people to come to them and then wondering why their classes were dwindling.Many of them still do that.

I hate to generalize, but on a psychological level, I can understand this. People who are open to forging a new path in dance are also likely to be open to adopting to new forms of technology and new ways of communicating. They're more likely to market themselves on multiple platforms, and thus they're going to attract more students. I'm not saying this is universal, but this is definitely the case in my city.

Originally Posted by Emma

I saw a similar phenomenon in my area but the split was between ages rather than styles. Younger dancers were more likely to be online than older dancers.

I agree there is truth in each of these posts, but I think the situation can be more complex than just saying dance traditionalists and older teachers aren't aggressive adopters of new technology. Some of the "offline" teachers are making an intentional choice. Some want to stay under the radar, because their life situation doesn't lend itself well to too much attention. Some prefer the idea that they recruit students on reputation and by word of mouth, not Internet-wide publicity. Some don't want big classes with a revolving door of new students because they teach out of their homes. There are lots of reasons.

I suspect for some there may also be a psychological bonus of knowing the student is starting from a position of deference because it takes work to find these hidden teachers. If you are an older dancer who has built her reputation over decades, perhaps you find it appealing to be able to say you are above the need to compete for students with younger dancers online. You don't need to advertise. You are important enough that the acolytes seek you. Maybe you don't even teach beginners. It's probably valid to accuse some of these teachers of merely dressing up their fuddy-duddy ways in a haughty grandeur they don't deserve (because, hey, what makes you so swell that you don't have to live in the 21st Century with everybody else?), but whatever. If you've got the number of students you like, then it's not a problem, and if your complaint is that students wouldn't want what you're selling no matter how you advertised it, then we're back to the other argument of why so many folks lack interest in old-fashioned belly dance.

Originally Posted by zorba

I'm not much up on current day pop singers, but I do have to confess that I like Lady Gaga. She is one *HELL* of a showlady! Some of her music I don't care for, some of it's OK; but she knows how to put on a show.

But somewhere, someone is figuring out how to fuse Belly Dance with Lady Gaga. It just won't be pretty...

It will be HIDEOUS

Also, as Zum stated where the music doesn't really SPEAK TO THEM, wouldn't it be nice if we were all in a financial position to just tell those students that maybe bellydancing isn't for them instead of having to dumb down just to stay in business?

Because that is what a ballet company would do - you either learn ballet or get out but you do not have permission to fuse it.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

What would your reaction be if you were invited to a hafla whose "rules" said, "Tribal style is welcome, but you MUST dance to Middle Eastern music"? Would you choose a nice Middle Eastern piece such as a taqsim or drum solo and perform at that hafla, or would you feel alienated at being told you can't use Western music and stay away?

I tend to be of the "little of this, little of that" variety, but I certainly wouldn't be offended or alienated. I'd probably get some clarification if I had questions about a particular song, but I'd think a taqsim would be right up the TF alley.

However, I might be kind of annoyed at hearing a remixed pop song, or a Fahtiem track (depends on the track), or an orchestral BDSS piece...Because I might consider that Western.

New can of worms - what makes the music Middle Eastern?

So yeah, the "Middle Eastern Music" label should apply equally at this hypothetical event, with a clear understanding of the boundaries for all the performers.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I agree there is truth in each of these posts, but I think the situation can be more complex than just saying dance traditionalists and older teachers aren't aggressive adopters of new technology. Some of the "offline" teachers are making an intentional choice. Some want to stay under the radar, because their life situation doesn't lend itself well to too much attention. Some prefer the idea that they recruit students on reputation and by word of mouth, not Internet-wide publicity. Some don't want big classes with a revolving door of new students because they teach out of their homes. There are lots of reasons.

I suspect for some there may also be a psychological bonus of knowing the student is starting from a position of deference because it takes work to find these hidden teachers. If you are an older dancer who has built her reputation over decades, perhaps you find it appealing to be able to say you are above the need to compete for students with younger dancers online. You don't need to advertise. You are important enough that the acolytes seek you. Maybe you don't even teach beginners. It's probably valid to accuse some of these teachers of merely dressing up their fuddy-duddy ways in a haughty grandeur they don't deserve (because, hey, what makes you so swell that you don't have to live in the 21st Century with everybody else?), but whatever. If you've got the number of students you like, then it's not a problem, and if your complaint is that students wouldn't want what you're selling no matter how you advertised it, then we're back to the other argument of why so many folks lack interest in old-fashioned belly dance.

You're right that there certainly are teachers who are in the position that they don't need or want to find new ways of advertising, and that's great if it works for them. The ones I have in mind from my area, though, seem to be genuinely frustrated with their lack of students. I know that classes are down everywhere, but this seemed to happen here before I started reading about it being an issue elsewhere.