Thread: Doesn't ANYONE Belly Dance anymore?

Originally Posted by rachelw

You're right that there certainly are teachers who are in the position that they don't need or want to find new ways of advertising, and that's great if it works for them. The ones I have in mind from my area, though, seem to be genuinely frustrated with their lack of students. I know that classes are down everywhere, but this seemed to happen here before I started reading about it being an issue elsewhere.

Well that was my situation until the recession really started to bite, I only went public so to speak last year about this time. I really had enough students in my little world.

Getting out has been fun, rewarding, challenging, scary, sometimes very upsetting, sometimes a real thrill and meeting other people in the dance community = a huge bonus.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I have a question for the dancers on this thread who love to do tribal and fusion styles.

What would your reaction be if you were invited to a hafla whose "rules" said, "Tribal style is welcome, but you MUST dance to Middle Eastern music"? Would you choose a nice Middle Eastern piece such as a taqsim or drum solo and perform at that hafla, or would you feel alienated at being told you can't use Western music and stay away?

You know what, I've considered this proposition myself. If people are doing more or less oriental dance moves, just not with the music, do I really care if they are in groups or not or doing choreography or not? So if the music is really the bottom line, which it is for me, and not just any one type either - why not just make that the key issue?

However, as mentioned about, ME music has changed so much this itself is an issue now. On Amazon I got several albums (not just tracks) of music, Desert Roses I think they're called, indeed Sting IS on some of the songs.

ME music is no longer traditional either.

Hence, we come to the classical vs cutting edge paradigm. Again.

It happens in every art form and sometimes, it's a false dichotomy, for example between neo-classical French painting and Romantic French painting. There were awful artistic wars over this but in fact both are aspects of classical French art.

What was interesting about this was the dualism itself. I wrote my thesis about this, proposing that the dualism in itself was a form of modernity, of modern art but also of a kind of thinking, black/white way of seeing things that's been a serious problem in how we see and react to the world especially as it's changed so dramatically beginning probably with the Industrial Revolution.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I have enough of an understanding of them that it's not "for student retention/money" that I don't disparage other styles- it's out of respect.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. For real. You have no idea how much I appreciate that. You talk the talk AND walk the walk. And that’s the point I was trying to make in another post: it is not an effort or a pretense, it is genuine respect.

Because that is what a ballet company would do - you either learn ballet or get out but you do not have permission to fuse it.

I don't think "fusion" is something you can really talk about with ballet. People are either doing ballet or they're not doing ballet. It is about the movements and the quality of the movements. Ballet is really really codified. People do ballet to all kinds of music. But you can determine whether it is ballet or not fairly easily. Yeah there are variations and flavourings and daring "ugly" movements that some choreographers might like to add, but you can apparently tell ballet by the technique.

Belly dance is not like this. We have awesome technique but where there might be five accepted ways to present a standard first arabesque (that number is entirely made up) there are 500 ways to do a backwards 8, probably, and none of them "wrong" necessarily.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

On beauty - my dad is a painter too and we have had some humdinger arguments over the years, among other things about creativity, his #1 thing; and mine, beauty, classicism; now those are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And of course, eye of the beholder, art without creativity is dead, etc:)

Wish you'd been there:)

I think I would have liked that a lot. :) Next best thing? Watch the doc and after we can geek on the topic of beauty and art via FB chat or MSN. I’m game if you are. PM me.

WRT tribal/fusion dancers and ME music, I would say that a lot of them would not mind at all. Remember, ATS used to be all mizmar-tastic and I would say any TF soloist would rock a nice nai taqsim with a little thought. Sure they might like it better if it had that beaty thing under it but that wouldn't necessarily be out of place.

The evil thing would be to demand that a tribal troupe go out there and improvise to something like Lissa Fakir, but that WOULD be evil and unfair, because that is not the music their dance is designed to go with.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I remember exactly what that world of BD in the UK looked like and there was some fusion going on.. people did comedy dances and fused flamenco and the likes... most didnt actually realise they were fusing and many still dont... We had people whgo liked folklore and wore Alegerian and Tunisian costumes.. then slowly but surely it retreated back into a big unidentifiable mush.

So, if I understand correctly, your classes would consist of people who want to do roughly the same thing, and present it to other dancers who also do the same thing. You would have a few students brought in by an interest in flamenco and perhaps exposed to this kind of fusion, but not a lot because fusion is not your focus. And, in discussions about the dance, it would be with presumably less dancers and dancers with less varied opinions. And would it be “pure”? I would have been inclined to think yes, but you mention that comedy pieces would still be part of the picture, whether for comedy (or charity too, I presume?) I’m also wondering if you would have had the same impetus to organize your ME events or to launch your school in the format you have described? (You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to; I’m just sharing the thought that came to me as I read you answer.)

Please understand: I’m not trying to slight you. We do need people like you who will act as keepers of the knowledge and keep the classical or PanArabic styles in the human collective. And if you think that fusion is sh!t, more power to you. *Not* kidding. You are completely entitled to your opinion. That being said, I do hope that you realize that the smelliest sh!t is what serves to fertilize the ground for the most beautiful roses to flowers and tasty, tasty vegetables too. ;) So even if it is complete and utter sh!t (in your opinion), fusion still has something to offer to you. More dancers, from more varied backgrounds. Differing opinions that need to be debated, explained and that will raise awareness in the process. More traffic on websites dedicated to the dance, like Bhuz and presumably more advertising income for such sites to continue (perhaps inciting you or your peers to market via new technology as well as others have mentioned). And, without an opposing force to bounce against, is it possible that the dance as you see it would retreat into a big unidentifiable mush as the Tunisian and Algerian dances you spoke of above? (I don’t have the definitive answer to that, I doubt no one can. But it does make a case for opposition as a driving force of growth, non?)

con't...

Originally Posted by kemintiri

con't...

As Serpentine said: “So to be perfectly honest about today's situation; traditional ME dance teachers should be THANKFUL that Tribal is around because it is bringing us students. I get it. If Tribal dancers didn't call what they do 'belly dance" we would have FAR fewer students.”

And I am the poster child for that. If it wasn’t for fusion, I wouldn’t be here. I wouldn’t be studying Egyptian, nor ATS, or Saidi. I wouldn’t have spent the quasi-totality of my disposable income on workshops and DVDs. I wouldn’t be on Bhuz. But, hey, I wouldn’t be here with my annoying questions/posts, so there’s that ;)

If you would like to keep discussing this, I'd love to hear what you have to say. Like, do you see anything positive, or negative, in marketing your classes to other styles? How do you feel about flamenco fusion? Did it have any lasting effects in your community? If yes, do they bother you to the same extent as the effects of Tribal Fusion/ATS did? Would you prefer a world without BDSS/fusion/ATS even if it meant less awareness/money? Why?

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I dont want to see these style disappear.. I just want people to know and understand the difference and make educated choices when deciding what they want to do... and go to different places to do it and see it.

Well, sounds like another oxymoron to me: you don’t want to see these styles disappear, but you want the people who do them to go elsewhere to do it. Or am I misunderstanding that too?

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

Is that really too much to ask?...

If you don’t want their money or any benefit from their presence, no.

If you do, then yes. And that, I think is the point that Tempest was making in her post upthread.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

and if I am really going to be honest here.. yes I do get very bored watching ATS/ITS and fusion.. I really hate most of the music and despise Beat Antique and the likes. I also know that most of my tribal friends (of which I have a few)get terribly bored watching ME dance and dont really like the music or get it either.. I just wish people would be a bit more honest about that.

Thank you. I appreciate the honesty. And it's totally fine to not like Beats Antique or any other band. For example, I love a lot of music, ME, Western, old, new, classical, fusion. But you know, I can’t say I like the accordion. It doesn’t matter to me if the music is MED or from the Eastern Townships of my native province: I got the accordion equivalent of the smallpox vaccine when I was growing up and I can’t stomach it anymore as an adult, save for a handful of baladi songs and ONE French Canadian new year reel. Now, if I came out and said to the accordion players that I hate and despise their boring music, I think they would be pretty pissed and understandably so. Fusion dancers are a lot like accordion players. Totally cool with the idea that what they do is not everyone’s cup of tea, but they prefer the civil expression of such just as much.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

DAMNED if I can get people to dance a lot though. They're always "oh we need more drinks first"... I have found it hard to get Kiwis Just Dancing without booze. One event that did work well was, there was a nice Turkish restaurant where a friend danced. Some students of mine had been to some workshops and bemoaned the fact that the tribal dancers could "do improv" when they could not. I was all "but of course you can improvise, you know movements, you know ways to put them together, you know how this music goes ..." and then we went for a dinner one day after class at the restaurant, and they had a few drinks and got up and danced to the music that was being played. Lots were saying "oh gosh we never realised, we CAN improvise!" But I've never been able to replicate that quite the same.

Sounds like a cool event. Here's the thing with improv, social or not. If you've got it naturally, it's awesome. If you don't, you like an idiot repeating the same movement over and over. I was one of the latter. However, ATS taught me to improv and how to deal with the "helmet fire". It was less intimidating at first because I was in a group, but later I was able to transfer this skill to Egyptian. Not suggesting you start teaching ATS or anything; maybe try group exercises? Once the ice has been broken, it may become easier?

Because at open floor events, even if you know classical and want to try that on the dance floor, if your group knows ATS, it takes over. I have seen it happen many times. Not a slight against ATS, it just feels safer in a group. You're not the keener alone on the dance floor :)

ETA: sorry, I meant to ask: what's "pomo"?

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

(I want to do pharonic fusion theatre dance to Cleopatra. WHY don't I have a dance company of minions who do what I want!)

That would be fun. But... Honestly? As much as I enjoy reading what you post on here, if I was in your area and heard you wanted dancers to do this, I wouldn't even try to apply. I would be convinced that you would hate me because I do tribal fusion. I respect the classical dancers and I very much like to learn what they have to impart to us newer to this dance. Heck, I have read your thesis! However, it is a massive turnoff to constantly hear how much sh!te is out there, farting-robot-music-stripy-socks etc... Because even though I do tribal fusion, I also do other things and I don't identify with that description of tribal fusion and I don't like being lumped in with it. And I'm not faulting you for your opinion, it is fine to have one. It's just the way it is expressed that is... well, you've been kinda vocal about fusion, you know? ;)

Anyhoo, I apologize in advance if this offends you, it is not meant as such. I have wanted to tell you this for a long time, but the opportunity to do so never really happened, either the topic had moved by the time I got to it, or it was innapropriate in the context. besides... It took me a few years to speak up on this topic and probably a few more before I venture in this topic again, so I might as well say everything I have to say before I shut up again :)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

What would your reaction be if you were invited to a hafla whose "rules" said, "Tribal style is welcome, but you MUST dance to Middle Eastern music"? Would you choose a nice Middle Eastern piece such as a taqsim or drum solo and perform at that hafla, or would you feel alienated at being told you can't use Western music and stay away?

First, I'd say "hell yeah!", then I'd say "thank you!", then I'd say "uh, I have few questions" :)

My first question would be what will the audience be like? (Any ME members, children, etc..) Then I would ask you to define tribal (tribal as in ATS/ITS or tribal as in anything that isn't classical/PanArabic style, including fusion), to define ME and western music. I could do a nice Egyptian piece to Bay City Shimmy (but is Phil Thornton considered ME?). I could do a wicked ATS number to Eleni Tsaligopoulos' Miserlou (again, is it considered ME?). I could do a TF drum solo to Solo Gamalat and accent with locks (would you be ok with ME song, but TF moves?). The possibilities are near infinite but without knowing what you want as an organizer, I would have a hard time landing on something guaranteed to make you happy.

But I wouldn't feel alienated in the least. The idea with TF (in my case anyway) is that it is mostly ME: 1/2 is Egyptian, and the other 1/2 is split oh... maybe 2/3 third ME and 1/3 flamenco, hiphop,etc.. The ATS I do is mostly done to ME (or ME sounding music) drums, mizmar and the like (Helm, Gypsy Caravan, Hossam Ramzy). I have no problem with ME music at all and in fact, I am working on something TF done to a modern version of Fakkarouny.

Here is my take. Just last night I talked to a friend who attended a local dance event that used to be huge. In it's heyday, it featured some of the top local dancers because they were all students of the sponsor. She said the show was so boring because none of the classically trained dancers had the skill level to pull of a solo. They had technique but no personality, no stage presence. They all looked the same in the same type of costuming, and the same type of moves. No individuality. There were some tribal girls there too. But she had to admit that the only really interesting act was a fusion act, because it was interesting and well-executed.

So we wondered what happened? This is my theory:

Back 20-30 years ago, traditional classic belly dance was very popular, one because that was THE style around, and second because that was what the average GP was exposed too. There were 2 types of supper clubs: The Arabic club which was almost exclusively for Arabs and the lucky few who discovered them. Then there were the clubs in Greektown. The clubs in Greektown catered to everyone! The first show would be geared for Americans, the second show more for the ethnic clientele. Dancers did the standard 5 song format. Greektown was THE place to go for Americans who were visiting out of town, or wanted to celebrate a birthday, anniversary etc. Many, many Americans were exposed to belly dancers from having dinner in Greektown. The dancers were a draw. On the other hand, Americans never went to Arabic clubs which started their shows at a much later time.

So, if someone wanted to take belly dancing, they naturally wanted to dance "like the dancers in Greektown. And teachers were hard to find. Only retired dancers taught. You had to really want to dance and go out of your way to find a class.

But in 1997, the last club in Greektown closed down. At the same time, most of the major Arabic supper clubs went out of business. When the big belly dance boom started around 2000 there was only 1 club left where dancers could go see a live dancer, namely ME. I then retired. The new dancers at that time, never bothered to come see my show. Ironically, right around that time, places were opening up left and right wanting to hire dancers for an Arabic night. But not like the big supper clubs of old. These were coffee shops catering for men, not families, or the little ME restaurant who was struggling and trying to attract business. They wanted dancers but the problem was there weren't any trained dancers working any more. Guess what, the owners didn't care. If she was young and pretty and had a costume, she could get the job. So the advanced students got the jobs. BUT they had never even seen a live show before, let alone be able to perform one. Business dropped off even more. Families didn't want to go to places where young men were hanging out trying to date the belly dancer.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I have a question for the dancers on this thread who love to do tribal and fusion styles.

What would your reaction be if you were invited to a hafla whose "rules" said, "Tribal style is welcome, but you MUST dance to Middle Eastern music"? Would you choose a nice Middle Eastern piece such as a taqsim or drum solo and perform at that hafla, or would you feel alienated at being told you can't use Western music and stay away?

Bring it on! It will probably be more towards folkloric if it's one of the improv groups I dance with. Solo it could be anything, though I'd probably stay away from the more orchestral music if I was doing a tribal solo. No tribal, sure thing I'd use it.

One question, are American bands playing ME music considered to be so?

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

ME music is no longer traditional either.

Exactly! Like, I want to learn hip hop and do some nice fusion to Shadia Mansour's music. I expect we will see more Arabic hiphop/electronica/rap/heavy metal after the events that Egypt has seen this summer.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

What would your reaction be if you were invited to a hafla whose "rules" said, "Tribal style is welcome, but you MUST dance to Middle Eastern music"? Would you choose a nice Middle Eastern piece such as a taqsim or drum solo and perform at that hafla, or would you feel alienated at being told you can't use Western music and stay away?

Shira, may I reverse the roles? I'm very interested in what *you* would say if I did the same as you did above, but told you you have to use non ME music. Would you use something like Satie's Gymnopedies, or opera or world beat? (Say the audience is all dancers and this is a for fun event.)

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Because at open floor events, even if you know classical and want to try that on the dance floor, if your group knows ATS, it takes over. I have seen it happen many times. Not a slight against ATS, it just feels safer in a group. You're not the keener alone on the dance floor :)

You know, that happens all too often at ostensibly mixed haflahs and it's done in such a way that it swamps everyone else and doesn't give anyone else any room to dance. It gets hard not to resent that.

If you're not sure what kind of Middle Eastern music to use for a performance at a belly dance show that is requesting Middle Eastern music, ask yourself, "was this music intended for raqs sharqi? or baladi, or folkloric, or Turkish Oryantal, or Turkish Rom, etc. etc. Do people "
over there" dance to this? If you choose music that was intended for the dance, you shouldn't go wrong.

If you are doing an artistic piece or an alternative piece for a special show, then maybe some other kind of Middle Eastern music would fit your artistic vision for that piece.

Actually, plenty of "cabaret" dancers do dance and have danced to Western music over the years. Long before ATS and fusion, this was a problem at some of our MEDGE shows. People wanted to belly dance to rock music, ballads, etc. That's fine, but a little goes a long way, so it's good for the organizers to know ahead of time how many dancers are planning to do something like that.

It can be fun to dance to Western music, but as I said, a little goes a long way in a show, so I would keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Shira, may I reverse the roles? I'm very interested in what *you* would say if I did the same as you did above, but told you you have to use non ME music. Would you use something like Satie's Gymnopedies, or opera or world beat? (Say the audience is all dancers and this is a for fun event.)

I don't know what Shira would say, but I know my answer would be, I would stay away. As a younger dancer, meaning less than 3 years experience, I liked to experiment too. I can remember the first time I was at a bar with my friends, and Kenny Roger's "Lady" came on. I blew everyone away with my slow dancing, basically like a taqseem. No one in Nebraska had seen belly dancing before! I had an "ah hah" moment that I could dance to other music besides classical ME music.

But now 30 years later, I"m older and wiser and more experienced and yes, more set in my ways. I love to dance to live, ME music. That is what gets me excited and enlivens my soul. I'd rather not dance than have to dance to something I have no feeling and connection with.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

First, I'd say "hell yeah!", then I'd say "thank you!", then I'd say "uh, I have few questions"

(lots of excellent questions snipped for brevity)

And I would say that any organizer worth dealing with would welcome the questions and work with you to reach a mutually agreeable plan.

In my case, the event I'm thinking of organizing would have an audience consisting primarily of fellow dancers. My definition of "tribal" would consider both ATS and tribal fusion to be equally acceptable, and I'd be fine with tribal fusion moves being done to Middle Eastern music so long as they make SENSE with the music. For example, if the dancer really wants to do pops and locks, then maybe a drum solo is the way to go.

And actually, I wouldn't limit fusion interpretations to tribal-based ones. For example, if someone wanted to do a Spanish-Arabic fusion to Alabina without any tribal-based influence, that would be cool too.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Shira, may I reverse the roles? I'm very interested in what *you* would say if I did the same as you did above, but told you you have to use non ME music. Would you use something like Satie's Gymnopedies, or opera or world beat? (Say the audience is all dancers and this is a for fun event.)

This would be a very easy request for me, as I've done a LOT of fusion over the years. I don't do fusion as often as I used to, mostly as a reaction to the fact that so many belly dance events have become so saturated with non-Middle Eastern music that I now go for the more traditional style just to make sure people remember where belly dance comes from. But I'd have no problem at all accommodating your hypothetical event!

Last year, audience members at two entirely separate events in separate states saw me dance to a humorous piece by an Italian operatic composer. So I could easily pull that piece out of my bag of tricks. Another possibility could be doing a dance of the seven veils to the music used in the dance scene from the opera Salome, though that might be a bit long for the typical hafla format. Or if I was going for humor, maybe I'd dance to the song "The Irish Belly Dancer". Or maybe a circus march based on "Streets of Cairo". After hurricane Katrina (which distressed me a great deal) I did a personal-therapy double veil dance to Linda Ronstadt's "Blue Bayou" followed by "When the Saints Go Marching In". So many possibilities, my difficulty would lie in choosing WHICH to do!

Originally Posted by beafarhana

You know, that happens all too often at ostensibly mixed haflahs and it's done in such a way that it swamps everyone else and doesn't give anyone else any room to dance. It gets hard not to resent that.

I too have been frustrated when ATS-ers crowd everyone else off the dance floor. I realize that they, like me, just want to do the dance form they love, so I try to be forgiving, but it certainly can be annoying.

Hmmm, this brings a thought to mind for event organizers to try....

What if, instead of a generic "open floor" time that's 3 songs in duration, you were to announce that there will be 3 songs, with Song #1 intended for participants to do ATS, Song #2 intended for debke, and Song #3 intended for improvisational dancing as individuals (which would welcome both Oriental-style and tribal-fusion-style individual dancing)? People would be welcome to get up and try any/all of the ones that they find appealing, and nobody will feel pushed off the floor.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

... I'm very interested in what *you* would say if I did the same as you did above, but told you you have to use non ME music. Would you use something like Satie's Gymnopedies, or opera or world beat? (Say the audience is all dancers and this is a for fun event.)

Welcome to our Christmas event*! My only "hmmm" feelings about it are a) it is getting really difficult to find anything I like that's festive and fun and IMO belly-danceable, and b) I'm glad we have another event where there's more of a ME focus. It's fine when off-topic music is the fun extras, weird if it becomes the meat and potatoes for people who are ostensibly studying ME styles.

(*The class has been working on a choreo for this, to Western music, and I just realised I am really missing my belly dance fix, go figure).

Kemintri, I've PMed you.

And just to make it clear to other people for what feels like the nine millionth time, I do not hate fusion, do not hate fusion dancers, have NEVER referred to any music as farting robot music unless I'm quoting someone else, have DONE and TAUGHT fusion dance on numerous occasions, have stated very clearly IN my thesis as well as everywhere else that I consider bellydance hybrid, that I don't believe in authenticity, that I am not into putting things in aspic, that I have never ever ever EVER said or done anything different, and that I am a bit tired of having to defend myself JUST because I like Om Khalsoum and DON'T want to do tribal.

Your mileage may vary but this IS my stance.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by kemintiri

So, if I understand correctly, your classes would consist of people who want to do roughly the same thing, and present it to other dancers who also do the same thing. You would have a few students brought in by an interest in flamenco and perhaps exposed to this kind of fusion, but not a lot because fusion is not your focus. And, in discussions about the dance, it would be with presumably less dancers and dancers with less varied opinions.

I teach Egyptian dance... what IS the problem? why do people appear to have issues with that like it is somehow wrong?

And would it be “pure”?

Explain what you mean by 'pure'?

Before we get onto this one, I have friends who perform and teach 'pure' ATS. Would you have a problem with that?.. they get irritated and prickly when someone performs something which is not strictly ATS but labels it as such.

I would have been inclined to think yes, but you mention that comedy pieces would still be part of the picture, whether for comedy (or charity too, I presume?) I’m also wondering if you would have had the same impetus to organize your ME events or to launch your school in the format you have described? (You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to; I’m just sharing the thought that came to me as I read you answer.)

I would answer the question above if I understood what it was asking.

Please understand: I’m not trying to slight you. We do need people like you who will act as keepers of the knowledge and keep the classical or PanArabic styles in the human collective.

??

And if you think that fusion is sh!t, more power to you.

And here was me thinking you were trying to engage in a real discussion.. stop being so defensive and reading into things that are not there and have not been written and I certainly dont think.

I have stopped reading the rest because it comes across as an immature rant full of judgement, assumption and reactionary blurb. It just right over my head.. Sorry.


If you want to rephrase it and stick to what has actually been said.. by all means question it. I am willing to answer and engage.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Well, sounds like another oxymoron to me: you don’t want to see these styles disappear, but you want the people who do them to go elsewhere to do it. Or am I misunderstanding that too?

That is correct. I totally support people who teach Fusion and ITS/ATS advertise it as such, go to Gothla and create their own fusion events. Where the community is too small for that I think it is ok to join up thinking as long as people are clear that it is not all under the label of belly dance. I really dont see the problem with that.

I am beginning to teach at a Flameno school (just their studio actually) but nobody will think for a second that what I am teaching a 'version' of Flamenco. They will have their own events and I will have mine.. some students may cross over and go to both.

If you don’t want their money or any benefit from their presence, no.

If you do, then yes. And that, I think is the point that Tempest was making in her post upthread.

I dont, and I will never have a Fusion dancer appear at one of my events to attract fusion dancers into the audience... I would have then because I wanted them there and they would bring something different.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Thank you. I appreciate the honesty. And it's totally fine to not like Beats Antique or any other band.

Beats Antique sound to me like someone banging nails into a garden shed.. OTOH, I hate most of the music produced by ARC and Emad Sayyed etc.

For example, I love a lot of music, ME, Western, old, new, classical, fusion. But you know, I can’t say I like the accordion. It doesn’t matter to me if the music is MED or from the Eastern Townships of my native province: I got the accordion equivalent of the smallpox vaccine when I was growing up and I can’t stomach it anymore as an adult, save for a handful of baladi songs and ONE French Canadian new year reel. Now, if I came out and said to the accordion players that I hate and despise their boring music, I think they would be pretty pissed and understandably so. Fusion dancers are a lot like accordion players. Totally cool with the idea that what they do is not everyone’s cup of tea, but they prefer the civil expression of such just as much.

The bottom line for me is ME dance is the visual representation of ME music. If I wanted to dance to Kajagoogoo then I would do it in my own 80's cultural style. Throwing in some hip shakes and twists doesnt mean I am belly dancing. It's very simple for me.. for others I guess not.

My taste in music in general is very varied.. I just dont perform to it or have the desire to do to.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

What if, instead of a generic "open floor" time that's 3 songs in duration, you were to announce that there will be 3 songs, with Song #1 intended for participants to do ATS, Song #2 intended for debke, and Song #3 intended for improvisational dancing as individuals (which would welcome both Oriental-style and tribal-fusion-style individual dancing)? People would be welcome to get up and try any/all of the ones that they find appealing, and nobody will feel pushed off the floor.

The phrase "herding cats" leaps to mind.

As does the phrase "nailing jelly to the wall".

[QUOTE=caroline_afifi;931991]

1-I teach Egyptian dance... what IS the problem? why do people appear to have issues with that like it is somehow wrong?

2-Explain what you mean by 'pure'?

3-Before we get onto this one, I have friends who perform and teach 'pure' ATS. Would you have a problem with that?.. they get irritated and prickly when someone performs something which is not strictly ATS but labels it as such.

4I would answer the question above if I understood what it was asking.


5-??

6-And here was me thinking you were trying to engage in a real discussion.. stop being so defensive and reading into things that are not there and have not been written and I certainly dont think.

I have stopped reading the rest because it comes across as an immature rant full of judgement, assumption and reactionary blurb. It just right over my head.. Sorry. If you want to rephrase it and stick to what has actually been said.. by all means question it. I am willing to answer and engage.

1- no problem. I like Egyptian too

2-no fusion. It wasn't meant as pure-pure. that's why I did put it in quotes. sorry if that wasn't clear.

3-nope. I have no problem with that. At all. I like ATS too.

4-i'm simply asking if you would have had the same drive to do ME only events if fusion wasn't there at all. I'm wondering if fusion was perhaps an incentive in doing more ME events in your area.

5-i'm not kidding. like I said, I like Egyptian too. Some dancers are concerned that fusion will eradicate classical syles and I'm reassuring, in case you think so too, that I have the same concern. I think it would be very sad if we lost this dance, iin it's original format, forever.

6-you can replace "sh!t" with "bad" if you want. I'm sorry that feel offended. I'm also sorry if you feel it was an immature rant. All I have tried to do was to get an idea of would be your ideal bellydance world. From your POV. See what things are positive or negative because of it. Like Bhuz would have less people on it, less people to see your ads if you placed any. I'm trying to see if there any redeeming qualities to TF in your eyes. And if not, what are its impact on your community. I happen to be lucky that all genres exist fairly peacefully in my area but I know it is not the case everywhere and I'm trying to understand that. If that has offended you, I am sorry. I don't get the "defensive" or the "reading things" because I'm doing is trying to get your POV on these things, sorry if that is coming across somehow as immature. And I can hardly "read things" into something I have barely an overview of.