Thread: Doesn't ANYONE Belly Dance anymore?

Originally Posted by kemintiri

I know what you mean, it was the same thing for me when I started, but watching a lot of dance helps. When I was just starting on Bhuz a few years ago, Samira Shuruk was kind enough to give me a list of YT clips and that was my gateway into classical styles. I'll try to find it in my pm's and if I do I will send it to you (unless someone else jumps in with such list before)

If someone has one, I'd love it. I've looked through a few lists, but a lot of the clips shown aren't always very good quality and that makes a huge difference for me.

I like to do my fusion to ME music too. Save for a very few pieces that are electronica or cross over of genres.

I think it makes for a good middle ground. It combines all the things I love into a nice package that I think can appeal to a wide variety of people. And it's fun to adjust the balance, tipping either direction, too

Here you go:
Here are a couple examples of Egyptian Sha'abi

Hantour by Saad el Soghayer and Amina saad el sager - YouTube
El Enab by Saad el Soghayer el3nab - YouTube
Mastool by Hamada Helal el3nab - YouTube

Some Lebanese pop
Nancy Ajram Nancy Ajram (Ah W Nos (English)) - YouTube
Haifa and Sabah in a remake (they do a lot of remakes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTEB-9skLSU
Sabah in the original http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNE6p...eature=related
Egyptian pop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD9xXRm3Jpw
Lebanese pop (debke style) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRgHqBkjc4
Moroccan pop (another remake) Marsoul El Hob - Hasna - YouTube
More Moroccan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJzE...eature=related

more "dancey" Very western accessible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGpkdU9qt4g this video cracks me up Rosy - Ayouh - YouTube

more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFlHoYZ9e1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfcwqb3QFDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOeN-nMxpgU
this next one isn't so good for performing to because of the lyrics (he's telling his late father about his new love), but it's fine for social dancing or class Sidi Mansour - YouTube
this one is pretty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrI1pUIehVs
more of an edge Rachid taha barra barra - YouTube

Sorry for the jumbledness, I tried to remove as much of the coding form the pm without affecting the links.

And Samira, I hope you don't mind that I'm sharing this?

Also:

Samia: Samia Gamal - episode from movie "Ali Baba" - YouTube

taheya: Tahia Carioca - YouTube

Naima: Tamr Henna - Naima Akef - YouTube

Nagwa": Nagwa Fouad Bellydancer - YouTube

Nadia: Bellydancer Nadia Gamal - YouTube

Fifi: Fifi Abdou - Belly Dance - YouTube

Lucy: Lucy , Egyptian Belly Dancer, Lessa Fakir - YouTube

Tulay: Tulay Karaca with live Turkish music,Turkish Belly Dancer - YouTube

Aziza: Belly Dancer AZIZA - YouTube

Artemis: Artemis Mourat / Tribal Fest 11 / Friday 7:09pm - YouTube

Jamila: JAMILA SALIMPOUR - PART I - YouTube

Suhaila: Belly Dance Suhaila Salimpour - YouTube

Habi Ru: Tribal Fest 8 - John Compton - Hahbi Ru belly dance - YouTube

Aida Nour: Aida Nour Shamadan performance - YouTube

Carolena & Megha: derwood green at majma - YouTube

Wild Card: Tribal Style for the Cure 1 - Wild Card Belly Dance at Russian River - YouTube

I'm one of those students who came to my first class and thoroughly hated the music. Grew up hearing everything from opera to gamelan music and even spent time in the ME when I was a child but the Arabic music was still completely foreign. When you stop and think about what a xenophobic history America has, it's not so difficult to understand how an average American raised in a homogenic environment could feel threatened by the music. While I was struggling with my classes, my ex-bf was constantly trying to convince me to dance to all the pseudo-arabic songs from our psychedelic rock collection. I didn't know it when I was a kid, but all my most favorite songs from that era, which was my passion as a teenager, had an Eastern quality to them. It would have made total sense to blend my new passion with my old one. If I had been the more outgoing type, I might have gone and done it. Fusion wasn't really on the radar yet, but clearly I wasn't the only one at the time who wanted to take a new understanding of movement and apply it to a personal sensibility. However, because I am an incessant reader and wanted to know everything I could about bellydance, I soon discovered that there was a culture already attached to the dance, and ran into the attitudes expressed in this thread. I can totally relate to a member of the GP coming into their first bellydance class and being turned off. It's kind of a miracle that I wasn't. I think because I came to the dance from the standpoint of an artist approaching a new medium, I was able to accept the challenge of learning how to use it correctly even though I didn't understand it. I have more respect for an artist who is way out there if I can see evidence that she knows the fundamentals of the craft. But to continue the paint analogy, there are parallels in the art world, where artists who branched away from the old masters have been denounced as traitors to the medium. Think of the first impressionists, whose work created a total scandal and was considered unfit to show in the grand salon. It's now considered a respectable example of high art. There are people out there who would like to say that Picasso's cubist paintings are not art, or even paintings. That makes no sense. Just because you don't like something doesn't negate its worth to the world and just because you don't relate to it personally doesn't mean it's got to be relegated to another realm.

(cont.)

In a way this thread makes me glad that I have always been kind of an outsider and not beholden to any particular scene within the dance community, because I think it has given me a wide perspective on the dance as a whole. Honestly, I don't understand the divide except that it's human nature to split up into tribes and fight with each other.

Here's another thing I think dancers who are in love with their art can't relate to in the GP. Bellydancers can be really boring. Cabaret, Tribal, Bollyhulachakrawood, whatever: it doesn't make a lick of difference what style you follow slavishly or make up as you go along if you are not a captivating entertainer. I don't care how much knowledge you have about the history of dance, whether you can speak Arabic or rattle off the names of the musicians who were in Tahia Carioca's band. If you're not enjoyable or at least interesting to watch, your audience will drift away in the direction of the bazaar. A mediocre dancer might use shock value to create interest, but chances are she'll lose interest herself sooner or later if that's what it takes. Good dancing speaks for itself, but it can admittedly be hard to hear when there are so many others shouting and gibbering. Yet, those are also forms of communication.

The playing field is naturally going to be different if you're dealing with a Middle Eastern audience. Since I don't have any experience with that, I can only speak from the POV of an American dancing for other Americans. Although Egyptian guys seem to like my dancing well enough *shrug*

Originally Posted by kemintiri

And I could see how in this (hypothetical ) fusion-less world, there would be a lot of opportunity to dig very deep into the traditions of the dance and its many, many facets because the crowd has the same interest. Presumably in a world with fusion, there are more people involved but less intense focus because the interest is spread across several styles.

Yes!

Mastering ME dance is really quite difficult.. so much so it can be mind blowing. Most people only get 1 hour per week and limited options for seeing dance.

I appreciate discussion which is why I am here. Fusion for me as a young dancer was an easy option.. Um Kulthoum sounded like Granny's music. By fusion I mean music that sounded a bit 'belly dancey' but wasnt Middle Eastern. The style then was a mish mash of stuff which drew heavily on Oriental fantasy. I later got into theatrical elements of the dance.
ATS came. It was possible to see the strong roots within the dance and costume but then the ATS fusion was fused and most of it is beyond any form of recognition for me. You cannot then start saying 'this fits and this doesnt' it was easier for me to draw a line and make clear distinctions of what is ME dance and what is not...including those dances which are heavily infleunced by belly dance.

Does that explain my journey of thought.. here are two examples of people who performed in the same show as I did a few years back.

Randa Kamel Quando le stelle cadono a Napoli 23/04/2011 - YouTube

The little Devil and The Little Devil's cat- Anasma - YouTube

Both very skilled but... see where I am coming from? what is the little red devil doing at a belly dance festival??

So all I’m trying to do here is a comparison to try and understand the differences. I’m not dissing classical here, nor tribal, nor fusion. I like all three equally.

And I am going to be totally honest and say I dont. I resent being forced to participate in a genre of dance in which I have very little interest. I dont mind *some*, but a few years ago I was working at a very well know festival with 'Belly dance' in the title and it was 80% + Tribal and fusion and I was pretty miffed.

Because the topic has been covered before, I tried to make it humorous and ok, fine, that fell flat.

This happens all of the time.. I have give up worrying about how I come across..LOL

All I have tried to do was to get an idea of what would be your ideal bellydance world. To see if, even if you perceive something as bad, it can still bring you something good, further exploring the idea of yin-yang that someone expressed upthread.



Yes, I can understand. Not necessarily agree, but understand.

I hope this time I have explained myself better.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by kozmique

I'm one of those students who came to my first class and thoroughly hated the music. Grew up hearing everything from opera to gamelan music and even spent time in the ME when I was a child but the Arabic music was still completely foreign. When you stop and think about what a xenophobic history America has, it's not so difficult to understand how an average American raised in a homogenic environment could feel threatened by the music.

And the culture.

My two favourite topics in the world..ME dance and Politics (together or as separate discussions)

Belly dance, despite it's non ME label, is a dance from the ME no matter which way you want to look at it.
I could turn this into a politically charged dissitation, but one paragraph should suffice.

You cannot disengage a cultural artform (or aspects of it) from it's culture simply because it does not suit you, or you cannot be as*ed to learn about the culture. Yes it has happened many times in the past but it is wrong.. so wrong.

The *West* already has an ugly history of disenaging cultures from it's language and identity. It is totally unacceptable and so wrong on many levels to just take what you want from other people and discard the rest.

I think we do have to distinguish between the fusioistas who work hard to produce a creative and entertaining act and those who scrabble together a mish mash of WTF because they are having fun and (as Caroline say's ) they can't be "ar$ed" .Oh,its' easy and doesn't involve research and practice at fitting together the elements thoughtfully. I've seen both and it involves time (and money), just as learning to belly dance does, to produce a piece that is audien-worthy. My respect goes out equally to both.

I miss a golden age of naiivete that probably never was. I miss the days when we used to dress up in all manner of random bits and pieces to create an "exotic" look and it was all MEANT to be ME and North African but was really more fantasy and it was all cosy and sweet and unthinking. People would have nice haflas and eat each other's food and support each other's fun dances with random pots and baskets. It was kind of like that when I started, kind of.

But the thing is, I couldn't go back there now because I am hyperaware of the issues of race and appropriation that play out so unthinkingly in that situation. Similarly we can't try to imagine a BD world that doesn't have fusion in it - and there has always been overt fusion, as I've said above - because we just can't. I do think the streams are starting to diverge massively and a lot of TF is much better positioned at Burning Man and alongside burlesque and circus and other stuff at alternative events. But it's there and it's not going away. So we must learn to live with it.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

I miss a golden age of naiivete that probably never was. I miss the days when we used to dress up in all manner of random bits and pieces to create an "exotic" look and it was all MEANT to be ME and North African but was really more fantasy and it was all cosy and sweet and unthinking. People would have nice haflas and eat each other's food and support each other's fun dances with random pots and baskets. It was kind of like that when I started, kind of.

But the thing is, I couldn't go back there now because I am hyperaware of the issues of race and appropriation that play out so unthinkingly in that situation. . . .

I know it's my Western, colonialist, Orientalist, privileged world view rearing it's ugly head, but yeah I'm with this on you. If I'd been around in Bal Anat's hey day I would have eaten it up with a spoon, as well as the 1960s dancing girl image.

Gilded Serpent just posted photos from Rakkasah in the mid 1980s and take a look. There is quite a bit of creative fusion going on with some of the dancers. Hey, look, a tiny hat!

kemintiri, thank you so much. I know what I'm doing with my day off tomorrow!

[QUOTE=caroline_afifi;932309]

The *West* already has an ugly history of disenaging cultures from it's language and identity. It is totally unacceptable and so wrong on many levels to just take what you want from other people and discard the rest.

What about people who come here from other countries and throw away most of their own cultural identity in order to assimilate? I think it's unfair of revisionists to pretend that there is no history of bellydance endemic to America (even if it did originally branch from the ME)and behave as if anything that occurred here before the last 20 years was totally unimportant just because they find it embarrassing.

I think people should pursue their dance passions wherever they lead, but don't call it belly dance and expect to perform at events that are labeled "belly dance" if your music is Western and your aesthetic is Western, i.e. hip-hop, goth, pirate, saloon girl, 1920's Paris, steampunk, etc.

If you don't think belly dance is a cultural dance with roots in the Middle East, fine. Just call it something else when you perform your dance which may be beautiful but has no connection whatsoever to the cultures of the Middle East.

It became obvious to me during the mediation process that I described in my earlier post (#145, page 5) that what the fusion dancers really wanted from the Middle Eastern Dance Guild was a venue. (Basically, fusion dancing was nearly overtaking belly dancing with Middle Eastern music and aesthetic at the monthly shows of an organization that had been established for 18 years at that time, and which specifically stated in its mission and performance guidelines that its goal was "to provide a venue and to foster enjoyment and understanding of Middle Eastern dance.")

During the conversations it became crystal clear that the proponents of fusion dancing were on board for the first half of the mission statement, i.e. they felt entitled to perform at the venues provided by the group, but they had no interest in the latter half - the part about promoting Middle Eastern music and dance. Some proposed changing the name of the group to take out the words Middle Eastern, or that the words "Middle Eastern" could apply to the geographically mid-eastern section of our city, not to countries across the seas! (really, someone said that!)

I am glad that the fusion dancers in my community have found some leadership and venues of their own. They are doing just fine. As I said to one dancer at the mediation meeting, "It's not difficult to start a guild. What is difficult is keeping it going for 18 years!" (now 20!)

People who want a platform to express their art need to find their venues and audience and take ownership of their dance by claiming it proudly and not calling it belly dance if it contains some movements from the dance vocabulary and none of the culture, i.e. music and emotion.

(continued next post)

It doesn't seem that complicated or difficult to me. Fusion dancers are not "entitled" to perform at belly dance venues. Certainly they can be included as an alternative to traditional dances to spice up a show, but they shouldn't expect to become the norm when their dance is so different.

I think organizers are afraid of losing business so they don't like to be "exclusive," and that is their right, but I am proud that our guild, a non-profit 503c organization, stuck to our mission and our guidelines.

We do have Alternative Night once a year, where anything family-friendly is allowed, and it's quite popular. We also alternate between tribal-style and traditional-style instructors when sponsoring workshops at our Fall Festival. And we host an annual International Dance Day event that focuses on folkloric dances. I just wanted to put that out so people don't think we are a group of one-style-only dancers. Here is the website again: medge.org

[QUOTE=kozmique;932354]

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

What about people who come here from other countries and throw away most of their own cultural identity in order to assimilate?

I'm not even going to get into that here other than to say I think you should go back and reread some stuff about privilege, and then revisit that statement with that knowledge fresh in your mind.

I think it's unfair of revisionists to pretend that there is no history of bellydance endemic to America (even if it did originally branch from the ME)and behave as if anything that occurred here before the last 20 years was totally unimportant just because they find it embarrassing.

That is absolutely true. However, what cultural experience did those American dancers and venues try to sell? Was it a) Life In The Wilds Of Alaska b) The All-Singing All-Dancing Cowboy Experience c) Ooooooooooh!Klahoma d) The Exotic Middle East Plus Turkey And Greece And Stuff?

Belly dancers in the US from the 50s to probably the late 90s were trying to represent the Middle East. It was a fictional fantastical east with dollops of Ancient Spirituality thrown in at times, but it was never ever trying to locate itself anywhere else but in this Orient.

Try telling Morocco that she was doing an all-American dance that never had anything to do with emulating and replicating ME dances in the 60s and 70s. Hell, why don't you tell Cory that. Go on.

ETA: Those are not Caroline's quotes, they are Kozmique's quotes in repsonse to Caroline.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I disagree that "never had anything to do with it" is an accurate statement even to describe many dances that are farther removed from the center. How much they had to do with it, to what degree of intimacy, sure, those things will affect the final outcome.

I agree that some venues the fusion has gotten out of control and has little or nothing to do with bellydance. The last big BD show I went to had a couple of dancers doing an 80's inspired pop-lock robot dance. It was cute, but not BD. When I was a curious baby dancer going to all these festivals and events by myself, I had no one telling me what was right or what was wrong. I couldn't stand the tribal or fusion dancers. I thought their music was terrible (and for the most part I still do). Initially, I was not moved by ME music either. But I do respect the connection BD has to the ME, and I think there's a huge variety of music out there that is both "authentic" and contemporary, that fuses East and West in a natural way.

I am curious to know what the consensus is on fusion that is happening by Middle Eastern artists who are inspired by current trends like hip-hop. Can you denigrate a dancer for bringing in new, non-ME-originating moves if that dancer is an Egyptian living in Egypt? Wouldn't that make it an authentic Middle Eastern dance? What if it's a Lebanese living in France? Europe is so much closer to the ME than America, that it would make sense to me that new trends would evolve in the lands of origin faster than they would be accepted here, where we tend to set ourselves a world apart anyway.

I am not trying to raise any hackles. I am curious and appreciate being shown things from a different perspective. I respect everyone's opinions and I hope the feeling is mutual.

It's their taonga, they can do what they want with it. It's been gifted to us, we should respect that. That is the difference.

I don't like generic "they" for anyone because it doesn't reflect the knotty reality of cultures and humans, but it's easier to use that here.

disagree that "never had anything to do with it" is an accurate statement even to describe many dances that are farther removed from the center.

I was responding to your assertion that belly dance prior to the last 20 years was some kind of made up American thing that 'revisionists' are trying to hide. Did I misread you?

I'm sorry if I came out sounding that simplistic, and I was exaggerating. Things always come out sounding so freaking serious in these chat forums. Then of course it's too easy to fall back on generalizations when talking about such a big subject. I do think that as soon as a chunk of culture, like bellydance, is transplanted into a completely different culture, it starts to change immediately. So when you challenged me by asking if I thought that what Morocco did back in the day was purely American, I thought no, because she was taught directly by Middle Easterners, but at the same time, yes, because there is no way that she or anyone else could learn a totally new art form without it filtering through all her own personal cultural predispositions, thus it would be something entirely new. Was what she did authentic? Yes, because she was channeling something bigger than herself. Was it identical to what was being done in the Middle East? I don't know because I wasn't there, so I have to take her word for it.

Originally Posted by kazoogrrl

One question, are American bands playing ME music considered to be so?

It's a loaded question!

My response to that would be....

If they're playing a song that originated in the Middle East, I'd consider their music to be Middle Eastern.

If they're playing their own compositions with some Middle Eastern inspirations such as rhythm track, I'd say "no". For example, I love a lot of the music by Solace that I've heard, but I wouldn't consider it Middle Eastern even though much of it contains Middle Eastern drum rhythms. I do enjoy seeing Solace's music used for ATS even though it's not Middle Eastern. I'd view the music by Desert Wind or Light Rain in the same way - great music, which I like very much, but I wouldn't consider it Middle Eastern even though it uses Middle Eastern drumming by qualified tabla players. (Desert Wind has a Palestinian drummer, and Light Rain used Mary Ellen Donald on one of their albums.) Even though I don't consider this music Middle Eastern, I like hearing it, and I'd be pleased to see a fusion dancer using it. In fact, I'd much prefer it over hiphop, Shakira, or Lady Gaga.

Some musicians who originated in the Middle East and immigrated to the U.S. would fall outside my definition of "Middle Eastern music". For example, Raja Zahr recorded a lot of music that, to my ear, sounds a lot more like piano lounge music than Middle Eastern. So even though I like his earlier work, I find his later work boring and uninspiring.

If the musicians are playing a drum solo or taqsim, chances are I'd consider it "close enough" to Middle Eastern music to consider it acceptable for purposes of a hafla that requires performers to use Middle Eastern music.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

The phrase "herding cats" leaps to mind.

As does the phrase "nailing jelly to the wall".

Although I see your point, I personally believe in experimenting with different ways of doing things to see what works. I'd be inclined to try it and see what happens. Maybe it would work, maybe not.

In my day job, I get really, really tired of people who shoot down people's ideas on the grounds that it would "never work" or "was tried 10 years ago, didn't work then, and therefore there's no point in trying it again now". Sure, we should acknowledge the fact that things were tried in the past and didn't work, but we should look at them thoughtfully to consider whether there are new parameters this time around that might lead to a different outcome this time. But then, my perspective comes from working in the high tech industry, where the culture is that of trying new stuff and seeing what happens.

I realize some hafla organizers may be risk-averse, and therefore unwilling to attempt a cat-herding exercise. That's fair. Some people (me) are willing to risk chaos, while others are not. Both are valid perspectives.

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Thanks Shira. I like to see what classical dancers, esp those who have vast knowledge of the dance like you consider appropriate in fusion. And I think it helps shape the collective "what is acceptable/when" for a lot of dancers who may not have given it the thought or a compass of sorts for those who have thought about it but unsure.

I tend to think of folkloric dance as exploring my own relationship to the culture the folkloric style comes from. I think of traditional Oriental dance (Egyptian/Lebanese/Turkish) as being either the role of "entertainer" or the role of "participant in the orchestra, playing the music with my body".

In contrast, for me personally fusion has a different purpose. For me, the role of fusion is to express something that I feel strongly motivated to express. For example, as I mentioned in message 172 on this thread at Doesn't ANYONE Belly Dance anymore? I created a dance to express the empathy I felt toward those whose lives were disrupted by Hurricane Katrina.

So, once I have a concept, my next step is usually to select the music. I firmly believe in the Balanchine quote, "Dance is the music made visible." If I can find the right music, then the rest will fall into place. So, if I want to do a "dance of the seven veils", I may feel drawn to the music Richard Strauss wrote for the dance of the seven veils segment of the opera Salome. I look for music that provides the foundation for what I want my fusion piece to say. Once I have that, next I think in terms of costuming. The dance movement comes last, and usually I improvise that.

If there is innovation and invention by belly dancers in Cairo and Beirut to their own music then that is surelt something different to Westerners deciding to fuse their belly dancing skills to US or European music and throw in something else. However good it is that's FUSED.That doesn't make it bad just not Bellydance!
Developments in the lands of dance will still be their dance .

Developments in the lands of dance will still be their dance .

I agree. Not only it's their dance - as I see it there's a big difference in the way those changes/ fusions/ innovations will be evaluated in a different culture. So off-beam it's not belly dance? Crazy one off novelty or passing fad? Or something that catches on and gets absorbed into the development of belly dance? How innovation is received is fundamental to whether it's a development or something that disappears; the culture is constantly moderating the product, if that makes sense.

Same thing happens over here of course, but in a different cultural environment what flourishes and what dies will be different.

Darwin Meets Bellydance or what?

What about Middle Eastern artists who play western songs with a Middle Eastern flair? Or Middle Eastern songs with a western flair? What about the children of Middle Eastern musicians who live in the West and compose their own songs based on the music they grew up with?

Originally Posted by kozmique

What about Middle Eastern artists who play western songs with a Middle Eastern flair? Or Middle Eastern songs with a western flair? What about the children of Middle Eastern musicians who live in the West and compose their own songs based on the music they grew up with?

I usually choose music to dance to based on how much I love the music. Usually for me that means interesting music that is not overly synthesized. I like music that is intended for belly dancing, personally. But sometimes I dance to other stuff, like in the video on my profile page.

If you are asking about a show with guidelines about using Middle Eastern music, it would be best to talk with the organizers to see what they are looking for.

If it's a belly dance festival, usually pretty much anything goes at those events.

Just wanted to remind folks that not all Middle Eastern music is belly dance music- never has been, never will be. Just like not all Middle Eastern dance is Belly Dance.

Fantastic show on AfroPop Worldwide this week Afropop Worldwide (click on Cairo: Hollywood of the Middle East)
Focuses on 20th century Egyptian pop music. Some of it is definitely usable for BD, then there's the section on the 80's...[oops- listened again it was the '70s early Arabic Rock section I was referring to...)

One of my all time favorite songs is by a pair of Morrocan & Japanese musicians living in Europe- Les Faux. Ciftitelli on Tuba. It is amazingly fabulous, but it is fusion. I have been meaning to do a fusion dance to it but haven't gotten around to it yet. It's still my warm up/make me happy song. All of their music- appropriate for BD? some works for BD fusion, some for non-BD fusion, none for straight BD, IMO. All danceable, but in more of a club dance way.

George Lammam- Lebanese American (whose violin can make me MELT, I tell you.) He plays original compositions- all of which I consider Middle Eastern, but some have a greater Western influence than others. Appropriate for BD? Some of it. The ones that appeal for BD are probably the ones which could work for fusion- there are a few I consider more easy listening than dance tunes.

Michael Beach of Brothers of the Baladi- straight up American band which plays Middle Eastern music, with an American flair, but the intention to stay true to the spirit of the original song. Speaking to Michael, he is very clear that what he is presenting is an American interpretation of Middle Eastern music, that he does have a deep respect for it, and that he is grateful that he has been accepted & even appreciated by the ME community because they see that in his music. He also does original compositions. Acceptable for BD? Most of it- depends on the song.

Originally Posted by kozmique

I am curious to know what the consensus is on fusion that is happening by Middle Eastern artists who are inspired by current trends like hip-hop.

Personally, I'm looking for some mythical critical mass. I've heard some ME rap music that is essentially a guy imitating Jay-Z, but rapping in Arabic. I've also heard rap that has a very Middle Eastern sensibility to it. I would say Light Rain is American music with ME flavor, but George Abdo is Middle Eastern/Mediterranean music with American flavor. What's the difference? I don't know, because it's hard to quantify. I sort of know it when I hear it.

Can you denigrate a dancer for bringing in new, non-ME-originating moves if that dancer is an Egyptian living in Egypt? Wouldn't that make it an authentic Middle Eastern dance?

Maybe. Is Mahmoud Reda less Egyptian for taking so much inspiration from Gene Kelly's style? Probably, but he can cloak himself in the luxury of being a cultural insider that I can't.

What if it's a Lebanese living in France? Europe is so much closer to the ME than America, that it would make sense to me that new trends would evolve in the lands of origin faster than they would be accepted here, where we tend to set ourselves a world apart anyway.

Honestly, I struggle to accept singers like Rachid Taha and Natacha Atlas as "real" ME. They are, but as I'm traveling around the Internet, they don't come up in the same circles as Chab Khaled and Najwa Karam. I get a strong impression that Middle Easterners see them as outsiders, even though they technically are not. I can't tell if that's because they "aren't part of the club" or because, as Western artists, their commercial distribution is at a disadvantage compared to artists working locally.

So from the last couple of posts I'm coming to the simplistic idea that in order for it to be non-fused belly dance it has to be to danced to ME music arranged and performed close to it's original production, and danced using a certain set of movements that are identifiable to belly dance with a few allowable and established additions that have snuck in over the last 100+ years, and this stands whether the dancer or musician is from the ME/North Africa or other countries? Doesn't this pretty much encase belly dance and the music it's associated with in amber? Mind boggling fusions aside, is natural, informed development allowed for it to be belly dance, assuming there will probably always be a core that is adhering to the history of the dance and music (see, some of the dancers responding to this thread)?

I am really interested in this thread.

Maybe. Is Mahmoud Reda less Egyptian for taking so much inspiration from Gene Kelly's style? Probably, but he can cloak himself in the luxury of being a cultural insider that I can't.

This seems to me to be very much a politically motivated POV, a demarcation of us vs. them. I know there is an unwillingness to bring politics into the discussion about dance and I am not knowledgeable or interested enough to participate in a real political discussion anyway, but at the same time it seems to be an elephant in the room. It just seems to me that this is an example of the forcing of culture over nature. Dance, like language, continually evolves as it moves through the world. Cultures, too, change and mutate over time. Even the food throughout the Middle East is becoming more homogenized, at least according to the authors of cookbooks I've read. Virtually all dance forms from bellydance to tap are performed differently today than they were 50 years ago. But the dance doesn't know that it's supposed to be one way on Egypt, another in Lebanon, and another in Canada. It's particular people who make those distinctions and choose how fine to cut them. Is English in America the same as in England? Australia? Taiwan? No, but people who want to understand each other agree that they are all English.

Just out of curiosity, are any of the people participating in this discussion Middle Eastern or of ME descent? Is it even possible for a non-Middle Eastern person to decide whether something is or isn't Middle Eastern?

I am quite aware that not all Middle Eastern music is suitable for bellydancing. I know that at the time it was daring and unconventional for Suheir Zaki to dance to Oum Kalthoum for the first time, and now that's considered a notch on the belt of any accomplished dancer (personally, it has never even sounded like BD music to me) SO it's OK for a ME dancer to flout convention, but total blasphemy for anyone else. I think that's sad, really. It's why I despise politics.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Honestly, I struggle to accept singers like Rachid Taha and Natacha Atlas as "real" ME. They are, but as I'm traveling around the Internet, they don't come up in the same circles as Chab Khaled and Najwa Karam. I get a strong impression that Middle Easterners see them as outsiders, even though they technically are not. I can't tell if that's because they "aren't part of the club" or because, as Western artists, their commercial distribution is at a disadvantage compared to artists working locally.

Both Rachid Taha and Natacha Atlas have a strong European background though - I think Natacha Atlas grew up in Belgium, & Rachid Taha has spent a lot of his life in France. And this is reflected in their music. It doesn't sound all that Middle Eastern to me, although it did when I was new to all this and anything even vaguely Arabic sounded amazingly foreign and exciting. I do quite enjoy Rachid Taha, Natacha Atlas less so to due to overexposure to her as a baby dancer... But I don't generally find either of them suitable for dance (and Natacha Atlas's version of I put a spell on you is like nails on a blackboard).

I would be interested to know what each of their main fan bases is, actually. I'd guess that Rachid Taha would be more popular amongst the Maghrebi diaspora in Europe, whereas Natacha Atlas seems to mostly be going for the 'world music' market who want 'exotic' music packaged inoffensively for the Western ear... (OK, perhaps I'm being a bit harsh about her, but 2 class choreographies to her songs in as many years would be enough to drive anyone to hold a grudge...).