Thread: The place of Vintage Oriental/"American Cabaret" in Bellydance Canon

I've read the histories, so I know that we we might call "AmCab" or "Vintage Oriental" tends to be derived primarily from Turkish bellydancing.

What I see as a 'toned' down version of Turkish - with the introduction of Egyptian Bellydance - a 'refining' of technique that still maintains some of the Turkish showmanship. In previous threads we've discussed the significance of bellydance and how it relates to studying the folkloric roots of the different regions, and of focusing on presenting an authentic respectful interpretation of the dance.

Where does the showy Vintage Oriental figure into this? Do we ultimately consider it another fusion created by the 'Western World"?

Do you consider it a style that is still distinct and viable in today's market? Relevant?

What are signatures of Vintage Oriental WRT movement and actions? And what about it's spirit/attitude?

Is the continuation of a "Vintage Oriental/AmCab" dance style an affront to Egyptian/Turkish dance, now that we have more resources to study the 'real thing'?

Now that bellydance is spread internationally, I find it extremely precarious to use American in relation to this particular style of bellydance, but would American be an appropriate way to categorize this since I believe that bellydance (versus outright Orientalism) flourish more in an American setting in the night clubs rather than in other western countries. Is there an American bellydance, or would having such be more a of co-opt/imperialist view of a traditionally Middle Eastern dance?

Originally Posted by Minajen

Where does the showy Vintage Oriental figure into this? Do we ultimately consider it another fusion created by the 'Western World"?

Yes, it's a fusion created in North America, but the way in which it differs from today's fusions is that it fuses primarily multiple Middle Eastern styles WITH EACH OTHER. There's only a comparatively small amount of American input. In other words, it fuses a bit of Turkish, a bit of pan-Arabic, a bit of Khaleegy, a bit of Moroccan, and so on. There is also a bit of prop use (primarily veil and balancing). In contrast today's fusion styles often use Western music, popping & locking, fan veils, Isis wings, poi, voi, ballet/jazz traveling steps with turns, and so on - a lot of American input, often to the point of having little to no Middle Eastern aesthetic left.

Originally Posted by Minajen

Do you consider it a style that is still distinct and viable in today's market? Relevant?

It's still the style that "generic American" audiences like to see when they hire dancers for stuff like 40th birthday parties or restaurant gigs.

Originally Posted by Minajen

Now that bellydance is spread internationally, I find it extremely precarious to use American in relation to this particular style of bellydance

Why? I'm a little confused. The U.S. is where this particular style originated, so what's precarious about using a name that acknowledges those origins?

Mainly because I find that in conversation, when talking about the bellydance outside the middle east, AmCab can sometimes used as a blanket designation of bellyance of those not necessarily just in the US, but abroad and in other countries.

That being said: Despite the commercial aspects of Vintage Oriental, do you think it's a viable choice as a style of bellydance as artistic expression?

As I continue dancing, it the distinction between styles becomes a more prominent topic in my mind. I understand the primary debate of traditional styles versus the more outre types of fusion and the debate over semantics - I enjoyed the Lauren of Arabia clip posted elsewhere because it addresses a growing concern that I've experienced as a result of continuing to dance and at times, reading the boards - why attempt to dance when by virtue of my ancestors, I may not be 'fit' to dance because doing so maybe be co-opting the culture of others? One that I have no ties to?

It's an argument for fusion, and I wonder if Vitnage Oriental may be a compromise - or is it a showy parody of traditional dance?

Originally Posted by Minajen

What I see as a 'toned' down version of Turkish - with the introduction of Egyptian
Bellydance - a 'refining' of technique that still maintains some of the Turkish showmanship.

As Shira points out, these styles evolved naturally out of the multi-ethnic environments of the old clubs. Many of the US clubs were Greek or Lebanese, which contributed to the evolution, too. At least for me, it can be difficult to tell retro Turkish from retro Lebanese (not karsilama vs. dabke, but just "regular" belly dance), because they're both a bit more enthusiastic/unrestrained than classical Egyptian, but AFAIK, there was no widespread, intentional effort to hybridize any particular ethnic element out of the dance then. BTW, folks who study Vintage American often go to the extent of preserving ethnic-mix/regional variations by indicating they are doing "North Beach," "Boston," "Detroit," etc., style. Saying there is a single Vintage American style may actually be an overgeneralization.

In previous threads we've discussed the significance of bellydance and how it relates to studying the folkloric roots of the different regions, and of focusing on presenting an authentic respectful interpretation of the dance.

People who care about the American styles care about authenticity and respect, too.

Do we ultimately consider it another fusion created by the 'Western World"?

It is fusion, but with enough gravitas to merit its own designation. This multi-ethnic, melting pot concept defined the dance in the US and large chunks of the non-ME world for decades. It's still how many dancers dance.

Relevant?

There's also an aspect of sheer history. The belly dance world as we know it today, with its classes, workshops, teaching films, and records for dancers would be different without the American experience. That by itself makes it relevant.

Now that bellydance is spread internationally, I find it extremely precarious to use American in relation to this particular style of bellydance...

This particular dance concept started in the US, where immigrants may not have been as burdened by baggage about old ethnic grudges as they were back home, but cultural cross pollination existed in the ME long before American dancers came along. Vintage American represents a place and time. It's not any more imperialist than pointing out the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and Herman's Hermits were British Invasion bands. There were probably great early-60's pop bands in Denmark, but most of the world doesn't know them. Other non-ME places had their own locally distinct BD scenes in the same era, and nobody begrudges their place in history. They just weren't as influential outside of their homelands as the American model. Sometimes it's about getting to the global market at the right time with the right packaging.

Originally Posted by Minajen

...AmCab can sometimes used as a blanket designation of bellyance of those not necessarily just in the US, but abroad and in other countries.

A lot of people don't like the "AmCab" label anyway, so call it "Vintage Pan-Mediterranean" or whatever fits. You can talk about the evolution of the dance scene in France or the UK, if that's relevant.

Despite the commercial aspects of Vintage Oriental, do you think it's a viable choice as a style of bellydance as artistic expression?

One could argue that not fussing over stylistic details (that may not even be entirely accurate) in order to emphasize the spirit of a multi-ethnic endeavor is still valid. I suspect a lot of ethnic audiences would prefer to see you embrace the music with less ethnic purity than to give a soulless but technically exact performance anyway. The dance doesn't screech to a halt at borders or check passports. Sometimes ethnic integrity matters more than others, but there's some fluidity built into the system. If they're okay with Egyptian songs being rerecorded in Turkish and Lebanese singers singing in Khaleeji dialects, we need to keep this in perspective.

There are two important ideas here:

1. When babies are born in Egypt or Turkey or wherever, they are not issued a book of Official Dance Rules. People have been stealing each other's moves since some caveman first thumped on a log. Even the most obsessive purist has to concede that these rules look an awful lot like "Egyptians DON'T USUALLY do ______" and "Turks TYPICALLY do ______." There's a lot of gray area here.

2. Those old-skool club dancers often worked under the guidance of natives. It's possible they received a more authentic education (albeit scattered across multiple ethnicities) than a lot of students get from non-natives in the name of authenticity today. Maybe those dancers were juggling what the violin player said was true against what the wife of the restaurant owner said, but how can that experience be worth less than learning from some no-name's YouTube channel?

why attempt to dance when by virtue of my ancestors, I may not be 'fit' to dance because doing so maybe be co-opting the culture of others?

If someone is not a native speaker of your language, do you appreciate the effort they have invested in trying to communicate with you or do you reprimand them for having the audacity to overstep their cultural boundaries? I mean, who doesn't love a good round of hypocritical PC handwringing now and then, but can we have a show of hands: How many people are here to pillage the cultural arts, undermine the sovereignty of, and manipulate/debase Middle Easterners, and how many are here because they think this is a really cool way to dance and want to do it well?

I wonder if Vitnage Oriental [is] a showy parody of traditional dance?

Anything can be an insult if you try hard enough...

I think I'm in love! Thank you both for addressing each and all of my points/questions.

Originally Posted by Minajen

Mainly because I find that in conversation, when talking about the bellydance outside the middle east, AmCab can sometimes used as a blanket designation of bellyance of those not necessarily just in the US, but abroad and in other countries.

My response to this would be that there are many flavors of belly dance outside the Middle East that have evolved as a result of local influence. Ie, not every non-Middle-Eastern style of belly dance has its foundation in Vintage American. If the dance contains the properties found in Vintage American, such as sword-balancing or the 5- or 7-part format, then it's legitimate to call it Vintage American or American Classic because that's what it is based on. But if a Russian dancer were to interpret Turkish, Lebanese, or Egyptian belly dance through her own cultural filter without borrowing from the stylistic elements that arose in the U.S., then that would not be Vintage American.

Originally Posted by Minajen

That being said: Despite the commercial aspects of Vintage Oriental, do you think it's a viable choice as a style of bellydance as artistic expression?

I would say absolutely yes. As always, I would encourage the dancer to apply truth in labeling to what she's doing - ie, don't call it "authentic Middle Eastern dance" if it's a more Americanized style. But assuming the dancer is honest about what she's doing, I can appreciate artistry in any style. I've seen beautiful artistic performances based on the Vintage American style that I found to be breathtaking.

Originally Posted by Minajen

Why attempt to dance when by virtue of my ancestors, I may not be 'fit' to dance because doing so maybe be co-opting the culture of others? One that I have no ties to?

I was a folk dancer before I became a belly dancer, and the dance styles we did included a variety of cultural dance forms, including Greek, Macedonian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Romanian, Swedish, Ukrainian, Hungarian, Russian, Austrian, French-Canadian, and more. I am NONE of those nationalities, but I loved learning and doing all those dance styles. One of the other members of our club used to wear a T-shirt that said, "Folk dancing is friendship set to music," and I agree with that sentiment.

The process of learning, say, a Romanian dance caused me to develop some interest in Romanian culture that went beyond the dance. It taught me that the Romanian language is a Romance language, which is something I otherwise would never have learned. It introduced me to Romanian folk music, which I discovered I liked a great deal. It inspired me to make myself an embroidered blouse in the traditional Romanian style. It led me to find Romania on the map and learn a little about Romania itself. In short, learning folk dances from the region inspired me to learn that there was much more to Romania than its status as an Iron Curtain country. It made me care about Romania in a way that I never did before.

Perhaps a cynical person would say that by learning Romanian folk dances and making myself a Romanian blouse, I co-opted Romanian culture. But the Romanians I've met over the years were delighted when I showed a knowledge/appreciation of their homeland that went deeper than the typical random member of the American public. They didn't think my interest in their music/dance/garb was co-opting at all.

I've had the same experience with Middle Eastern dance. Middle Eastern people seem delighted that my knowledge of their culture goes deeper than the usual stereotypes they deal with of wars, terrorists, and persecuted women.

That said, I think a dancer who divorces "belly dance" from "Middle Eastern culture" is treading on thinner ice when it comes to cultural co-opting. I think it's problematic when people advertise themselves as teachers of belly dancing but in their classrooms they don't use Middle Eastern music or teach any respect/knowledge of Middle Eastern culture.

I think is relevant as it is still the style of belly dancing the average GP audience expects when they go to see a belly dance show.

Tourbeau pointed out something very important and that is that the dance back then was definitely influenced by the local immigrant population. Most of the immigrants landed in NY and moved westward. Detroit is home to the largest Arabic population in the ME and has a large Greek and Chaldean population as well. Each country brings their own flavor of music and culture to the area. For instance in Detroit, the majority of the clubs were Lebanese, Greek and Chaldean. A few Palestinian, Egyptian clubs as well.

In Chicago, there is a large Assyrian population. The music they play for dancers is totally different then what they would play in a Lebanese club in Detroit. Even if it was the same song the style of playing would be different. The music reminded me more of what Chaldeans and Iraqis would play at a wedding.

So a classic style dancer from NY, Detroit, Chicago or San Francisco would have a lot of similarities, but there would be differences as well. Even from club to club there would be differences. For instance in Detroit, the dancers in Greek clubs danced primarily what is referred to as Vintage Orientale or Amcab. But the same dancer would go to an Arabic club and dance totally different because there the Egyptian style of dancing was already taking hold. Minimum veil work, no floor work, zills not a requirement, beledi , saidi, zar, all things not done in a Greek nightclub. Beledi, saidi, zar ect. were considered to be folkloric. Often in the Arabic clubs the show was in two parts, the "caberet" part of the show and the folkloric side of the show. In fact I have a clip of a dancer from the time that I will post to demonstrate.

As I've said before, back then there wasn't this big classification of different styles. It all fell under the label of dance. The type of music being played dictated how you danced but it was all belly dance.

Naima, Vintage Detroit Belly Dancer, Part 1 - YouTube

Naima, Vintage Detroit Belly Dancer, Part 2. - YouTube

Originally Posted by norma

As I've said before, back then there wasn't this big classification of different styles. It all fell under the label of dance. The type of music being played dictated how you danced but it was all belly dance.

THIS.

It's ALWAYS about the music. The music makes one dance differently, if one can *hear* the difference in the music.

That's the trick for most folks who aspire to dance well.

Deborah

Great discussion! Does anyone have any thoughts on the question of signature movements/spirit from the original post?

"What are signatures of Vintage Oriental WRT movement and actions? And what about it's spirit/attitude? "

Originally Posted by Minajen

Now that bellydance is spread internationally, I find it extremely precarious to use American in relation to this particular style of bellydance, but would American be an appropriate way to categorize this since I believe that bellydance (versus outright Orientalism) flourish more in an American setting in the night clubs rather than in other western countries. Is there an American bellydance, or would having such be more a of co-opt/imperialist view of a traditionally Middle Eastern dance?

I think we have to use American to describe it, since it grew up here and has never really existed elsewhere. What else would we call it?

Why do you "believe that bellydance (versus outright Orientalism) flourish more in an American setting in the night clubs rather than in other western countries?"

Bellydance flourishes, AFAICT, in most Western countries. It's in the UK, Germany, Iceland, Spain, Austrailia, New Zealand, Italy, Amsterdam. The president of Finland bellydanced. There are competitions all over Russia and the Ukraine. (Are those Western or Eastern? Regardless, there's also a vibrant bellydance scene in China, Japan, and Vietnam...)

Each of those countries have their own styles as well, their own 'accent' that is an amalgam of local aesthetics/values (gregarious vs shy, athletic vs. relaxed, etc) combined with the influx of immigrants/ease of travel. The UK is broadly Egyptian, for instance, which melds well with their more understated sensibility, while the Ukraine appears to have been receiving an influx of wartime Gulf Arabs and the Gulf Kawleeya style meshes with the Eastern European focus on physical prowess. (those statements are pretty off-the-cuff but I believe them to be true).

Why would the US not have its own style? It seems the showy 'Look At MEEEEE!' American persona met its soulmate in the fiery Turkish style of the 60s and 70s, where it blended with other immigrant cultures and became a Thing.

Should we continue to study/perform it? Well... why not? Is America not as viable a place for a dance form to develop as anywhere else?

Are we co-opting culture? Not if we work respectfully. That's a HUGE can of worms, really, because of our current involvement in the Middle East, but it is possible to work with the dance respectfully. For me it's a matter of asking myself "Would I do this for a Middle Eastern audience?"

Originally Posted by Melanthia

Great discussion! Does anyone have any thoughts on the question of signature movements/spirit from the original post?

"What are signatures of Vintage Oriental WRT movement and actions? And what about it's spirit/attitude? "

Signatures (most are also signatures of Turkish style):
- Veil wrap
- Finger cymbals
- Floorwork (often to Chiftitelli music)
- Sword or fire tray balancing


Spirit/attitude:
Fiery, showy, dramatic. Striving for a sort of Cecil B. DeMille exoticism.

That's a nutshell. I've written a whole article on the style here, with video examples.
Bellydance styles - American Cabaret

I just reloaded this clip on youtube. Typical "American Cabaret" performance in the Greek Supper clubs.


Norma, Detroit Belly Dancer at El Greco - YouTube

What a great article, Lauren! Thanks for sharing it and your thoughts.

Lovely dancing, Norma!