Thread: Is coin flipping on belly a must for all professional dancers?

I went to a dinner recently and the topic of me as a bellydancer came up. A guy asked me if I can do the coin flips on my belly like Egyptian dancers do. (correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the coin flip an American thing like the sword?). I told him no I can't (truth is I've never even tried it. I should have said that instead but I'm pretty straight forward and don't sugarcoat anything) and then he asked if I do it as a hobby or professionally. I told him professionally. I would have taken out my card but at that particular gathering, marketing myself wasn't very appropriate unfortunately.

I think he might have looked down on me after that convo... so guys, what do you think? (I searched for threads pertaining to this but couldn't find any.)

Because I don't perform the coin flip am I less professional or just less talented?

neither in my opinion. i dont think its a standing requirement for any dancer. just an extra party trick some use. the only time ive seen it done was at a dance intensive as an exercise to practice more controlled bellyrolls. but im a baby belly so this is just my limited opinion

NO! Don't get me started Holding back a rant on professionalism vs. tricks and Orientalism and stereotypes

Look at the greats. How many of them did that in their shows? Look at the current top pros. Who is doing that in their shows?

/HoldingBackARant

Definitely not a requirement. I have heard dancers state they felt it was much of a party trick or gimmick, something to do as a crutch. I do not think it is a simple technique to learn, only repeating what I have heard other dancers say. No way would I even attempt it, I would probably lose the coins in my belly folds.

Whoa. Seriously. That's a party trick. It's not even something that you could perform in a regular show -- you kind of have to stop, grab some coins, lay down somewhere, etc. What about all the actual dance part of dancing, you know?

Sure, some pro dancers can (or will) flip coins, but it's not a required element. Not all chefs serve flaming cheese at every meal (or ever).

Second, and perhaps more important: you can and should be confident from within. This guy didn't know anything about dance, and even if he did think less of you as a dancer because you couldn't do one party trick that he knew about, that shouldn't affect your opinion of your own dance ability. Odds are, he'd respond differently if you said 'nope, but that's just one aspect, and there's a little more to dance than that!!" or even 'well, I do a lot, but that's one thing I don't do yet" and merrily enjoyed the rest of your evening.

Listen to opinions that count (teachers, mentors, dance professionals, people with an accurate critical eye).

Even as a "professional belly coin flipper" I'm so sick of this question. That's not meant as an attack at the OP, but at the actual topic of party tricks (also holding back a rant). Granted, I'm fortunate enough to never be asked about the coin trick upon exposing myself as a dancer, I usually hear the Shakira and boyfriend stereotypes. In fact, as a professional entertainer, I have only ever use the coin flip TWICE in shows. Both weren't even belly dance. I was a mermaid on the shore of the pool and a kid brought some quarters to tip me with so I showed him the trick. And I was laying on a bed of nails at a Renaissance Faire...and that's it.

So the answer is no. Party tricks make you AWESOME at parties and on drunken home videos, not make or break you as a professional dancer. So don't worry about that guy or anyone who harasses you about that topic.

Thanks for not slitting my throat for asking this question :) I just wanted to get a quick answer...although the answer was at the back of my mind (promise!)

My first teacher could do amazing coin rolling and dollar bill folding - but even she sneeringly called it a circus trick and as far as I know never did it while actually dancing.

A requirement?! It's a parlor trick! I actually *did* learn how to do it, in a class of women who had all been dancing together for several years and were very comfortable with each other. The teacher stressed that it was a trick, and said the only place it might be appropriate would be an American bridal shower or something akin to that. Actually, it was a challenging exercise and one that really forced us to pay attention to the separate muscle groups in the abdomen. We were all giggling and dropping quarters everywhere. I was thinner and had more muscle tone then, so I was able to do it, but I doubt I could now. In any case it wasn't attractive even then, and I would never dream of doing it in public! I once saw a clip of bellydancer flipping a hamburger on some stupid show. Gross!

Years ago I attended a workshop and show featuring Helena Vlahos. She was very graceful and kind. During the show we were shocked to see the studio owner's husband escort her from the stage so she could walk to the center of the audience area, lie on the floor and flip coins on her stomach. I knew it was part of her resume but many of the show attendees thought it would have been best to demonstrate that talent during class. 2 dancers that had paid for Sunday's classes did not attend, seems their husbands were disappointed with that aspect of the weekend activities. (Trying to be careful as I select my words. Actually the husbands and wives walked out during the coin flipping performance.)

Adding to the chorus of nos.

My teacher could do it and told us that once we could, we must never do it for less than $100 up front.

For me this falls under the "just cause you can doesn't mean you should" umbrella...

That being said, it is a great exercise for belly rolls in the privacy of your own home...

If you want to promote yourself as a hardcore, vintage, club-style dancer, it is reasonable to have this skill in your arsenal. Not every dancer did coin rolling back then, but enough did that segments of the GP expect it as part of our vocabulary. If you're aiming for a different style, use that moment to educate people that the dance has a rich and varied history. Not every dancer dances with swords or snakes, either (didn't then, don't now). On the other hand, if you're selling people the nostalgia of that particular retro style, then give your audience what they remember seeing on that trip to the Greek restaurant in 1974 or the TV show "That's Incredible!" in 1981. For a lot of gigs, a dancer is novelty entertainment for an audience who doesn't give a hoot about stylistic authenticity, and you can't deny that being able to roll coins does make for a memorable performance. How important is it to you to create a stylistically and historically accurate presentation? How much do you want to stand out in your local market?

I really don't know the history of coin rolling, but I'm not sure it's entirely valid to assume it's some silly parlor trick that has little basis in the dance, as if some dancer just thought it up on a lark or put a practice exercise on stage without knowing better. Floorwork, abdominal work, and body tipping all have legitimate roots in the dance, and coin rolling is the intersection of those three elements. Coin rolling certainly has a sturdier claim to authenticity than Chinese fan veils do.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you want to promote yourself as a hardcore, vintage, club-style dancer, it is reasonable to have this skill in your arsenal. Not every dancer did coin rolling back then, but enough did that segments of the GP expect it as part of our vocabulary.

Genuine question: But how was this originally presented and why does the GP expect it? I had assumed (but lack data) that coin flipping was done on TV. It's a trick that would film well, much better than it would present in a live performance, where, as mentioned, one would have to plop down somewhere (reducing visibility). I can see it appearing on random TV programs, being recycled as a clip, and giving the unwashed masses the impression that it's done all the time by all these 'exotic harem dancers'. ?? What are the data?

Are there examples of "Vintage Orientale" dancers coin flipping *as part of their regular DANCE gig in a cabaret/restaurant?*

Well, the above mentioned Helena Vlahos did, and I know that Delilah of Seattle also has done this (she also bounces quarters off her abs.) I am sure that they were not the first. It probably started as a Circus trick somewhere back in the day and belly dancers picked it up. That would be my educated guess. But then again, if someone can find out something more definitive, please, let us know.

{{{HUGS}}}

There isn't a lot of footage of full nightclub shows from back in the day, but maybe Cory or Norma or someone can chip in with more information. I assume it was usually part of the floorwork section. Helena advances her version of the floorwork-plus-abwork-meets-tipping idea in her bio About Helena Vlahos under "A Happy Accident." There's also this clip of a very young Mayte Garcia integrating it into a performance Mayte Garcia Belly Dancing at 8 years Old! - YouTube, and you could imagine what she's doing being expanded into a full nightclub set.

The Mayte clip made its way into a later Prince project (they were briefly married), which is why his face is in the video. Helena lists herself making an appearance on the same show as Mayte (presumably at a different time), in addition to a number of other shows. Back when there were only a few channels on TV (pre-cable), one program could make a significant dent in the next day's water cooler discussions. Since most Americans weren't going to clubs with live dancers, and not all dancers rolled coins anyway, I assume it's mostly because of television that the idea caught on in the US.

Originally Posted by kozmique

I once saw a clip of bellydancer flipping a hamburger on some stupid show. Gross!

Ewwwwww!

I've never seen any Egyptian dancer do this trick. It's not a part of this style, and even in AmCab where some dancers do it, it's not really a requirement either, as it certainly isn't something all dancers in that style do.

To anyone asking those sorts of questions (whether I can do such and such a trick), I'd tell them belly dance is about interpreting Middle Eastern music in an artful, elegant way. We are also entertainers, and we do some tricks here and there to entertain our audiences but the tricks are not the main focus of our art form. We are dancers, not circus performers.

I'm a bit disappointed to see how judgmental some of the posts on this thread are about coin-rolling. I've never performed it myself, but I don't see a problem with it being performed in the right situation.

It's an old American Classic style of belly dance trick. The two dancers I think of as the originators are Helena Vlahos and Delillah of Seattle. I've discussed it with both dancers, and so far as I can tell they each came up with it independently - ie, without knowing anything about what the other was doing.

It became famous (and expected of belly dancers) throughout the U.S. around 1981-1982-ish when Helena was featured on the popular television show That's Incredible. I was a beginning student at the time, and I remember seeing that show. She did her quarter-rolling trick on the show, and almost overnight everyone who knew I was taking belly dance classes asked me whether I could do that. I got pretty tired of being asked!

This article on Helena's web site tells of how she got started rolling coins: Belly Dance Tips & Tricks

For everyone bashing coin-rolling, you need to put it into context - when a performer does it, it's typically part of a larger floor work performance. If the situation isn't conducive to floor work, then it's probably not going to be conducive to coin rolling. These days, people ask Helena to do just the coin-rolling because she's so famous for it, but in a more "normal" performance situation a belly dancer would do some "normal" floor work dancing first, then do a bit with the coins, then do more "normal" floor work. The coins are just another prop to show off the dancer's skill - in this case, to show off her abdominal control. It's really no different from balancing a sword to show off your posture, your sense of balance, and ability to isolate your upper body.

I think showtime's teacher did Helena a disservice by presenting her coin rolling out of context. I suppose they wanted to show everyone the skill that had appeared on national television and made her so famous, but without the right context I can see how it could fall flat.

The general public often appreciates belly dance shows that include some lighthearted humor as well as Great Art. I'd rather see someone rolling coins than feeding grapes to the birthday boy as part of a sultan act.

Shira, you're right, I admit to already being on edge when I responded. I should clarify for my own sake, I don't have anything against coin-rolling. For pete's sake, I do it! What I DO have a problem with is being asked about all the tricks I can do. Do I dance with snakes? Do I do the dance of the seven veils? Do I do this? Do I do that? I perform as a sideshow artist and a cirque "freak" a lot. That's where I do the majority of dancing with snakes, sword balancing, and coin-rolling. I guess I just get frustrated when people unknowingly mix two of my artistic loves up

Originally Posted by *Shira*

It's an old American Classic style of belly dance trick. The two dancers I think of as the originators are Helena Vlahos and Delillah of Seattle. I've discussed it with both dancers, and so far as I can tell they each came up with it independently - ie, without knowing anything about what the other was doing.

...

This article on Helena's web site tells of how she got started rolling coins: Belly Dance Tips & Tricks

I remember seeing some documentary with Helena Vlahos explaining how she started doing it so I have always considered it her invention, something that can be done as part of a Vintage Oriental show. Just the thought of an Egyptian style dancer doing this in a performance makes me laugh.

I have seen ONE dancer in Turkey do coin-rolling, at a small restaurant/club that caters primarily to tourists, I think in Cappadocia, if I recall correctly. This does not necessarily mean that coin-rolling comes from Turkey, though. It's possible that American tourists who'd seen Helena's performance on That's Incredible asked her whether she does it, leading her to add it to her shtick. I really don't know.

Going back to the original post, I have no idea why the guy Raya met seemed to think that coin rolling was something Egyptian dancers do. I have never seen an Egyptian dancer roll coins, nor would I expect to.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Going back to the original post, I have no idea why the guy Raya met seemed to think that coin rolling was something Egyptian dancers do. I have never seen an Egyptian dancer roll coins, nor would I expect to.

I think that everyone is probably right that the guy may have seen it back in the day and assumed all dancers do it. It is funny how people(non dancers) all of a sudden become experts on raqs sharki, I have been trying to explain to my fairly new significant other that there are so many styles of belly dance. He see's anyone who doesn't dance like me and hates it(i dance somewhere between am cab and lebanese) I have taken him to some really great shows with really good egyptian style and he finds it sooo boring. We actually get into arguments because he may say a person suck who i study under or really admire... All that said, people see one performer and expect every other perfomer to do and dance like that. Especially if they really like the performance.

Helena started doing it as an abdominal exercise, and In her class I found that just the attempt was worth abou a million situps. She continues to perform it because audiences expect it of her, and it is amazing to see her move every other coin in a row of 9 individually. That said, all terrific tricks aside, what you take away from her show is her incredible artistry and stunning stage presence.

It's not an Egyptian invention, Helena developed it as an exercise independently as an American cabaret performer, as Shira said. And it's certainly not a requirement.

My advice? Don't be intimidated by some wiseass know-it-all who wants to get under your skin. The guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

I wouldn't worry about it. I know, and know of, plenty of people who are good figure skaters who get the same treatment when someone asks "Can you do an axel?" (or a triple axel or whatever) and they say no. (It's the hardest jump, it eludes people for a long time-- some forever-- and you can be a pretty good skater before you even get to the point of learning it.)

The point is that people tend to hear of X or Y trick, and it's just about the only thing they know about a particular art form, and they tend to think it is THE thing that every person in that art form does and/or should know... it's all complete BS, of course, but try telling THEM that...

I think I'd just respond by saying "While it's true that some bellydancers are able to do fun tricks with the abdominal muscles they've developed, it's not part of the dance. My focus is really on the art of interpreting middle-eastern music through movement."

I have been asked so many things over the years....
"Where is your snake?"
"Why aren't you wearing a belly chain?"
Always in a sense of "If you were a REAL bellydancer, you would..."

People like to show off their half-knowledge. It's not their fault not to know better. And it's not your fault that you don't meet their expectations

MEISSOUN

I've about given up on snappy comebacks and work on perfecting my "what the hell are you talking about" stare instead. That way *I'm* not on the defensive and trying to explain myself.

I did learn how to flip coins after seeing a video of Delilah do it. I was 15 & bored, what can I say? It helps to start with heavier coins- silver dollars work great and look impressive too. I haven't tried in years, and looking at my abs right now I doubt I can. But hey, I have insomnia, I'm bored and I have a silver dollar. I'll let you know tomorrow ;)

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

... My teacher could do it and told us that once we could, we must never do it for less than $100 up front.

That would be a GREAT policy!

I do think these sorts of things have their place. I should begin practice right now. At the very least, it'll add interest into my ab routine at the gym..

It is a parlor trick. But it is amazing to watch and shows incredible muscle control

Clip from "That's Incredible"
Helena Vlahos 1981 - YouTube


Helena explains how she first started doing this:
Guinness belly trick - YouTube