Thread: What's the difference?

If I thought anyone had the intention (or even tendency) to be Islamophobic here, I doubt I'd be comfortable saying anything about it. I don't even think, re-reading, that I was doing more than venting mild and rather diffuse exasperation about the use and mis-use of the word, and trying to explain why some people, myself included, find use of the word a bit problematic, when it's misused.

I recall that discussion; it points up, as this discussion does, that there's a wide range of stuff that no one should necessarily be expected to know all the nuances of, which is really what this question was about in the first place ("what is the difference?") To say nothing of differentiation by area: a burqa isn't really a burqa, it's a niqab...unless it's a bor'a. And a Khaleeji burqa is nothing like either. Heck, there's nuances in niqab, too, even wide gaps in ideology and custom (I know 3 women who are niqabi, and they all wear different styles of niqab, following different customs. Would anyone just know or be able to spot the difference? Probably not; it's what's been said several times in the course of this discussion: enough experience, and you know it when you see it, but it's hard to explain). Is it better for people to try to explain? I'd think so.

On the subject, just throwing this out there...upstream someone posted Nejla Ates and her veiling. What this brings to mind for me is Ottoman-era veiling, like so:

dame turque voilee | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Which certainly doesn't look much like most modern niqab.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Raqia - Ra`ia (or in some parts of Egypt Ragia)

Total aside - I always crack up, poor Raqia Hassan, everyone in the West always says "Rat-ya" and we butcher her name so badly.

Back to face veiling in performance, it depends on the audience, and if it's a quick thing, I think it can be cute to people. Like I do the veil wrap where it looks like a niqab sometimes in restaurants. Audiences are more amazed at the trick of it and I don't hold it for more than a few seconds.

I do feel uncomfortable when I see dancers hold that for longer or do pieces where the veils are wrapped around their faces or over their heads. But it's more the cheesy/orientalist factor than the religious factor for me.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Except that it's the *correct* word to use for the Egyptian face veil worn with the Melaya in the Melaya Lef tableau. Admittedly, with a glottal stop instead of the Q, so as Zumarrad used it "bur'a", or "bor'a".

I usually hear "yashmak" rather than "burqa" when referring to the face veil people wear for melaya leff.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Actually the correct name for the face veil in Egypt is bur`a (that is burqa with an Egyptian accent). It is a totally different thing from what many call the Afghani Burqa - which covers the whole body. The only point of similarity is that it covers. (The root is to drape - doesn't say what)

I was just about to point out something very similar. In Saudi (and possibly other places too) the word burqa refers to a face veil (called a niqab in other parts of the world), but not to the full coverage garment worn by some Afghan women.

Originally Posted by Starmouth

I was just about to point out something very similar. In Saudi (and possibly other places too) the word burqa refers to a face veil (called a niqab in other parts of the world), but not to the full coverage garment worn by some Afghan women.

"Burqa" correctly also is used for the "falcon" eye mask of some Gulf states. I think I linked to it.

Originally Posted by Minajen

In the spirit of the thread then, what are appropriate uses of veil facewrapping? I mean, if it's done in the context of a dance move - is that more appropriate than just wearing a faceveil of any sort? For example, Neilja Ates:

Nejla Ates (Son of Sinbad , 1955) - YouTube

Would that be pushing it?

Cultural matters are rarely simple.

In the case of the Nejla Ates clip (which I love), it's possible the face veil was demanded by the movie's costuming person. Ie, not Nejla's choice at all. Nejla died many years ago and so far as I know never wrote any memoirs about her career, so we can't say for sure. Anyway, if you've landed a nice role in a movie that might make you famous, how hard would you argue against wearing a cheesy Hollywood-esque face veil? Chances are you'd just go ahead and wear it, rather than jeopardize your job.

There's an Egyptian movie, Mufattish al-Aam (Inspector General) in which Tahia Carioca's character does a dance performance while wearing a face veil. That clip appears on the compilation DVD titled Legends of Belly Dance. I've seen the full-length movie with English subtitles, and it's important to point out that for THAT PARTICULAR movie, the face veil has a reason for being worn. Ie, it's because of her character and the plot, it's not being done for "cute" reasons.

I would suggest that it's best to avoid wearing a face veil when doing Oriental (ie, normal belly dancing) even though Nejla Ates wore one in the Sinbad movie. Wearing one for a folkloric piece could be okay, if it fits with the rest of the character portrayal that you're constructing, as discussed in more detail elsewhere on this thread.

Originally Posted by Tiziri

"Burqa" correctly also is used for the "falcon" eye mask of some Gulf states. I think I linked to it.

Do you mean the mask that comes down over the nose? File:Bandari Burqa.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There was a style of hijab making the rounds of the more liberal areas of the Gulf a few years ago that was also called "falcon," but it was a modern thing. The underscarf had a decorated forehead that came to a point, like a widow's peak in the shape of a beak of a bird. Unfortunately, I can't find a picture of one.

Tiziri, here's a slightly OT question: What constitutes "playing-grade" instead of "praying-grade" misbah? THE DESERT BOUTIQUE, Your Online Islamic Department Store!!! - Dark Green Small Glass Misbah (for playing, not for praying) or THE DESERT BOUTIQUE, Your Online Islamic Department Store!!! - Lilac Glass Misbah (for playing, not praying) vs. THE DESERT BOUTIQUE, Your Online Islamic Department Store!!! - Traditional Arabian Beautiful Sky Blue Crystal Misbah (Worry Beads) What makes the cheaper beads not good enough? All three strands are glass beads, and it can't just be the number of beads, because some of the longer strands made the unsuitable list in the "99 Cent Tent." Part of why I'm asking is that Catholics have no problem with praying on something that is one step above Mardi Gras necklaces (e.g., Blue Cord Rosary - Made in Italy) as long as they get blessed by a priest. Even "play rosaries" are considered "real." Different religion, though.

Catholics are just resourceful and indiscriminate. *runs away*

I appreciate the responses to my questions! I ask about the Nelja clips because there's that context - as you've said, Shira - about it being a costume demand by the movie, which in that case, no harm no foul.

When it comes to costuming I like the 50's/60's 'campy' hollywood 'aesthetic' (Bright chiffons! Jangly, dangly bits! Jewelry! Totally inaccurate coin bedlahs!) but in my own performance, I want to be very careful about treading the line between that aesthetic, kitsch and all, with something that comes across as orientalizing and distasteful.

Originally Posted by Minajen

When it comes to costuming I like the 50's/60's 'campy' hollywood 'aesthetic' (Bright chiffons! Jangly, dangly bits! Jewelry! Totally inaccurate coin bedlahs!) but in my own performance, I want to be very careful about treading the line between that aesthetic, kitsch and all, with something that comes across as orientalizing and distasteful.

I'm not so sure coin bedlehs are inaccurate. It's true they're not traditional folk garb, but I think this may be a coin costume in this Samia Gamal clip:

Samia Gamal in a coin costume - YouTube

Here's another one:

Samia Gamal belly dancer (Agaza Fi Gahanam) - YouTube

So I personally wouldn't describe coin costumes as "inaccurate". I like them too, and I have a couple of really nice ones myself!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'm not so sure coin bedlehs are inaccurate.

I wouldn't say they are inaccurate either. There are alot of Egyptian dancers in old films wearing coin costumes even as far back as the 30's. Here's a few more examples:

Taheya Carioca in a stunning coin costume in 1942. Beggining at 3:36 in the clip:
Taheya Carioca Egyptian Belly Dance - YouTube


Houriya Mohamed in a coin costume in 1942:
Houriya Mohamed Egyptian Belly dancer 1942 - YouTube


Taheya Carioca in a coin costume in 1939:
Taheya Carioca 1939 - YouTube

Here's one more. An unknown Egyptian dancer with a shamadan wearing a coin bra and a triangular coin edged hipscarf in 1946.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf19YDxDftw

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Do you mean the mask that comes down over the nose? File:Bandari Burqa.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes; that's the one. I've seen it referred to as "falcon"-style because supposedly it was designed to give the wearer a falconlike appearance, but that may be apocryphal.

As for the misbaha, that's a really good question. It's not the materials, because some companies manufacture misbaha for prison inmates, and those have to be made of plastic (IIRC) to meet prison guidelines, and I have definitely seen other people use glass beads (I have a set made of quartz crystal). Unless the material itself is unclean, but that seems unlikely. The number of beads? No: these "play" ones have a 33-count, which is perfectly acceptable (you do 3 rounds of them); I see the 33-count *a lot*. So no, I'm not sure. The only thing I can see that *might* be unusual is that the beads are not round but oval, which is atypical (the others are faceted, but the shape is round). But these are ovoid too:

Kuka prayer beads muslim tasbih Islamic masbaha

However, the use of misbaha to count dhikr at all is controversial in some quarters. (people do argue about it; I've had that experience firsthand...that was fun ) There are a lot of judgments that to use them to count is bid'ah -- innovation -- since they weren't used by the first three generations, and therefore they're forbidden or at least disliked. These include the recommendation that the count be kept only on the fingers. Other judgments say nothing whatsoever is wrong with it. You see the issue (Trying to explain this without sinking into words that would need a glossary!)

Unless there's some other disqualifier that I've missed, this might be an attempt to duck that issue with a disclaimer. I notice the pretty crystal ones are called "worry beads" in their description.

P.S.: Whether something like prayer beads is OK or not is largely dependent on which madh'hab (school of jurisprudence) you follow the rulings of. These madh'habs (there are 4 big ones) can roughly follow geography/cultural lines in majority, and some areas are pretty homogenous in fiqh (some aren't). Something may be judged as obligatory, recommended, allowed, disliked, or forbidden -- and it may differ by school. Some schools are more liberal in general than others.

I'm pretty certain is that the company you linked to put in that disclaimer so not to offend anyone following a ruling that judges prayer beads disliked or forbidden (pretty sure this is Hanbali -- and Salafi, who aren't one of the 4), because there seems to be no other reason. I do note that the others not labeled as "play" are labeled as "worry beads."

The differences in schools, along with the geography/culture issues, is a big reason why some questions of "Is this offensive to Muslims/Muslim-majority Group X?" may get a "Yes, if not no" response. Which brings us back to that whole nuances thing

I really hope I haven't derailed altogether horribly.

Originally Posted by Tiziri

I really hope I haven't derailed altogether horribly.

Anyone who has an issue with the digression should blame me, not you, since I brought the matter up. I appreciate that you took the time to address the question. It's very difficult to learn without ever having these conversations, and I found your answer insightful.