Thread: Need info on Turkish zill patterns

Hi; I'm somewhat confused about the patterns for zills in Turkish oriental dance.

Based on what I have read, I know that depending on the type of dance, the zill patterns vary. In most online sources and print books about zills, they usually tell you the patterns for Turkish Karsilama (folk dance done in groups) and the Ciftetelli. However, I read that the Karsilama is not supposed to be accompanied by zills.

I am confused about what zill patterns I need to know and practice when it comes to a fast tempo Turkish song. A good example is John Bilezikjian's Geceler: Geceler-John Bilezikjian - YouTube

Or the fast tempo version of Rompi Rompi.

What pattern of zills should I play for these two songs?

Thank you for any advice!
Goldie

Hi Goldie -

I'm having a little trouble zeroing in on exactly what you're asking. I get the impression from what you wrote that somewhere you read or someone told you that in Turkish Oryantal there are specific patterns that go with specific songs? It's definitely not that strict.

Have you checked out Artemis Mourat's CD "Zill Speak"? It's really excellent and gives you a number of variations you can play with each given rhythm, and, if I recall correctly, also some tips on using your own flourishes.

Hi! Well both songs are a 9/8 rhythm so you would be right in using Karshlama (rl rl rl rlr). Gypsy rhythm is hard for western ears to hear so you just have to practice with it so you know your moves and zilling are going along with it

What Aslahan said - Artemis' CD w/ booklet is the best introduction to playing zills to Turkish music.

As for terminology: The term karsilama means many things, and arguments can get heated when people do not agree upon the same meaning in a conversation. American musicians often to use the term karsilama to refer to the 9/8 rhythm variation they play (if you speak drum, D T D Tkk). Turkish folk dancers most often use karsilama to refer to a couple's dance. My Turkish language teacher uses karsilamak when we talk about how to say hello and good-bye. And, there are a bunch of traditional Turkish songs that have the word karsilama as part of their name, zilling along to those songs is just fine. Confused yet? Is your head spinning? :-)

Originally Posted by aida21

I am confused about what zill patterns I need to know and practice when it comes to a fast tempo Turkish song. A good example is John Bilezikjian's Geceler: Geceler-John Bilezikjian - YouTube

That particular song is using a very fast 4/4 Saidi rhythm. This is what it sounds like slowed down

http://www.khafif.com/rhy/rhymidi.cg...midi&type=.mid

Originally Posted by aida21

However, I read that the Karsilama is not supposed to be accompanied by zills.

Or the fast tempo version of Rompi Rompi.

This is about 15 seconds of a dancer playing zills to Karsilama, used in Rompi Rompi.

An Evening of Middle Eastern Music and Dance - YouTube

Thanks everyone for your ideas:)

Aslahan: I guess i am so confused that I wasn't even explaining myself well lol! And as Steffigib said it, it gets even more confusing with so many variations on the Karsilama, Ciftetelli and how the terms are used in dancing and zilling. I believe that one of Turkey's top dancers Serap Su said that zills are NOT used in Karsilama as it's a very folky group dance.

I guess what I was asking was the patterns for the two songs which CheekyLauren suggested one good pattern.

And I didn't realize that John Bilezikjian's Geceler is actually a fast saidi! It didn't occur to me until I listened closely:)

Well, i have lots of endless practicing with my zills. Having a tough time moving around while playing them.

Originally Posted by aida21

I believe that one of Turkey's top dancers Serap Su said that zills are NOT used in Karsilama as it's a very folky group dance.

It's all a lot simpler than it seems :-) For the Turkish folk dance called karsilama zills are not used - but most of us here do not do folk dancing. For an oriental dancer dancing to the 9/8 rhythm called karsilama by many, esp. American, musicians and dancers, it is fine to play zills. If you want to further explore this topic, Artemis' CD and booklet is fantastic and a must have.

Thanks Steffib! I will definitely check out Artemis' DVD and book.

Here is the Amazon link to the CD (I believe it is also sold on CDBabay).

Amazon.com: Zill Speak - How to Play Finger Cymbals from A(lmee) to Z(ills): Elizabeth Artemis Mourat: Music

Happy cymbaling :-)

Whenever I hear the 9/8 rhythm I play my zills. One of my favorite rhythms to bellydance to! As a performer you can modify your zill playing to the music. There are rules, but with dance this is where you can express your freedom. Zills have to coordinate with the music. That is a must! Knowing your history of the rhythms is important too. But getting caught up with all the theories can inhibit your bellydance, especially if you are improvising.

Originally Posted by aida21

I believe that one of Turkey's top dancers Serap Su said that zills are NOT used in Karsilama as it's a very folky group dance.

Ah hah. I think Steffi covered this, but, when a Turkish person says "karsilama" they mean the folk dance. They do NOT call the rhythm "karsilama"; they say "dokuz sekiz" - literally "nine eight".

:)