Thread: Chest drops are not oriental?

So a friend of mine recently went to Lebanon, she is an intermediate level dancer I would say.. It was her first time doing the competition, but she got enough courage and decided to compete at Amani's Oriental Festival since she was attending it any way... She was the first to go, after her performance Amani came back stage and told her off in front of all the participants that a big Egyptian hip circle and a chest drop are not oriental, its bull****, she literally said that.. Well I know she always emphasizes the importance of being classy and sticking to authentic oriental moves, which I thought the Egyptian hip circle was, and I dont care what she says about that, coz I studied with tons of Egyptian dancers and they all do it! But it got me really thinking about the chest drop!!! Is it more of a modern, fusion move?!?!

In contrast, Dr Mo Geddawi (Egyptian dancer for over 50 years) said that the horizontal hip circle is the orientale hip circle; a tilting hip circle he calls an African hip circle - and he considers it not to be a part of the orientale movement vocabulary (although he admits it can have its place).

That said, the really big hip circle is usually used in beledi or folk - not pure orientale.

Chest drops - in moderation - but beledi/folk I'd say rather than strictly orientale. Certainly harsh popping is not orientale.

When you say you have studied with lots of Egyptian dancers, do you mean Egyptian style or born and danced in Egypt?

Possibly opening a can of worms with flames and laser beams on their heads but...

imho large, poppy locky chest lifts/drops are not authentic. I was cautioned against these moves when I was headlining at Al Andalous and Middle East Connection. Was told they are not authentic and are the give away of an outsider or pretender-to-the-crown.

That said, for AmCab/Turkish/Greek-esque this rule was taught to me in the inverse and large/prominent chest isolations were desired and considered skillful by my instructors in those genres.

Think its really Cultural POV dependent.

Yes, I would say that check drops are a western thing. Some but not all of the Egyptian dancers do some subtle locks that come more from the solar plexus rather than being a big up and down movement of the rib cage.

I'm scratching my head about the big hip circle, though. Clearly it is a move that virtually all of the Egyptian dancers do. I don't know about Lebanese. Maybe Amani just doesn't like them. I've heard of some Egyptian teachers saying things like "x isn't authentic", and what they obviously mean is "I don't like x".

I may be wrong, but I believe I've heard that chest drops are not used much in Egyptian style, but can be found in Turkish style. The hip circle thing has me scratching my head, though.

Originally Posted by selmaa

after her performance Amani came back stage and told her off in front of all the participants that a big Egyptian hip circle and a chest drop are not oriental, its bull****, she literally said that..

What a miserable, rude way to behave toward someone.

Originally Posted by kashmir

In contrast, Dr Mo Geddawi (Egyptian dancer for over 50 years) said that the horizontal hip circle is the orientale hip circle; a tilting hip circle he calls an African hip circle - and he considers it not to be a part of the orientale movement vocabulary (although he admits it can have its place).

That said, the really big hip circle is usually used in beledi or folk - not pure orientale.

Chest drops - in moderation - but beledi/folk I'd say rather than strictly orientale. Certainly harsh popping is not orientale.

When you say you have studied with lots of Egyptian dancers, do you mean Egyptian style or born and danced in Egypt?

I used to live in egypt for a while, went to every single Nile Group and AWS and studied with them all pretty much, took privates etc... You know what though in Egypt I've never seen anyone come after you after your performance and say hey ur doing this wrong! Dont do this or whatever.. Although Farida Fahmi did smth similar at her workshop she picked out a girl and asked her where was she from, then she said is that how u dance in Germany, and kept peeking on her the whole time, everybody was looking at her.. On one hand you want to learn the right way, but on the other hand there should be a way of delivering the message to your students.. Well either way chest drops huh, I'm going to miss them!! lol

Ok here's Amani at 2:30 the hip/body circle she does, I think the Egyptian hip circle looks much more subtle and tasteful, as long as it's not Camelia type... Absolutely love the song and her energy!

Well, I think I'd give Amani a big whatevs in this situation.

Raqs Sharqi is an ever evolving artform with many inovations being contributed both by Egyptian, Turkish and Lebanese dancers, all of whom I consider legitimate purveyors. And many of whom do big hip circles and chest locks (Dina and Didem respectively). Maybe Amani doesn't think the Turks and the Egyptians should be included?

She can pretend to be a purist all she wants, but she herself is way more jazzy in her dance style than her progenitors of 50 or 60 years back. Compare Amani to Kawakib (the Lebanese dancer in the following clip).



She is welcome to promote her own preferred tastes in Oriental dance, but there is no reason to be so insensitive in her approach.


Did any of y'all hear the story that the Egyptians started doing the big hip circles to the back when the hip circles that curved to the front were outlawed?

Why yes I have heard that thing about the big backward hip circle (I actually personally think of it as the "butt circle", he he) starting up in response to the forward circle w/ backbend (a la Samia Gamal) being forbidden, amusing because it looks much naughtier than what it was replacing. It was Leila Farid I heard this from.
Rosette

When I read the original post, and of course, I was not actually THERE, so this is all just conjecture...I had the impression that Amani was saying Big hip circle PLUS chest drop= not Egyptian. IMHO it's the chest drop she's referring to more so than the hip circle. Because I do agree that the chest drop is more Turkish/ American style and the big hip circle is most definitely Egyptian.

My first teacher taught that the hip circles have changed over the years...originally they could only do the front arc because the back part was rude, then it switched and you couldn't do the front arc and just "swooped" down in front. It makes for two very different looking moves.

Ah, well. I do chest drops to Egyptian music all the time. Not gonna stop.
Rosette

Ok so the big hip circle is officially marked as voulgar in Amani's book along with breats and stomach shimmies...Well the last two I can give to her. When I first read the competition rules I thought she reffered to the hip circle with your butt facing the audience, obviously I was wrong.. Now add the chest drop...

Here's part of the competition rules from amaniorientalfestival.com
Competition Assessment:

You ask: How can I add credits do my dance? And what to avoid ?
The most important point you should always keep in mind is to give respect and dignity to your dance and to yourself. Any movements that degrade you and your dance are better to be avoided. For example:
- Big Hip circle emphasis and shoving your buttocks vulgarly when you make a big hip circle
- Shaking your breasts in an indecent manner instead of making an elegant shoulder shimmy
- Stomach shimmies

Whenever you have even the slightest doubt, pause and ask yourself.

"Do I accept to have people take them as presentation of my personality?
Such movements like obscenely showing off my buttocks to the audience in a big hip circle and bouncing, rotating and shaking my breasts vulgarly?
"What would I think if I saw a lady making such movements without music?
"Is it allowed to demonstrate movements that are normally not respected to do in public if there are music and beats?

Such movements were added to the oriental dance vocabulary lately by dancers who would rather rely on explicit expression of their sexuality rather than the artistic quality they could have shown.

To keep the high dignity of this art, we should all be careful to not give the wrong image to the public.

What we do, decides the way this respectful art evolves. Let's work together:
- to get rid of odd movements newly added to the oriental dance vocabulary, and
- to have oriental dance develop without losing its authenticity and aesthetic.

By working hand in hand, we can change the current dance scene all over the world.

Breast shimmies? you mean like these?



certainly not a recent addition, but I guess there are degrees of booby shaking?

So what is so vulgar about a belly shimmy? Have any of you ever considered a belly flutter to be racy or vulgar?

Originally Posted by shems

Breast shimmies? you mean like these?



certainly not a recent addition, but I guess there are degrees of booby shaking?

So what is so vulgar about a belly shimmy? Have any of you ever considered a belly flutter to be racy or vulgar?

OMG wth was that with the chair?! Thats hilarious! I gotta post it on fb, lol But yeh those were some serious breast shimmies!!! Is she lebanese?

Originally Posted by selmaa

- Shaking your breasts in an indecent manner instead of making an elegant shoulder shimmy

And on the other hand we have the Egyptian teachers like Fifi and others laughing at us poor uptight westerners because we are not shaking our breasts enough and instead are trying to do isolated shoulder movements.

It just illustrates that the native dancers are not a single homogeneous entity with respect to their opinions and aesthetics.

Funny, but I couldn't help but think of this clip of Fifi from the very start of this thread. (It's been awhile since I've been on here doing things, so I hope I inserted this correctly.)

Originally Posted by shems

And many of whom do big hip circles and chest locks (Dina and Didem respectively). Maybe Amani doesn't think the Turks and the Egyptians should be included?

I was told that Dina's hip circles have a strong folkloric influence (sa`iidi). Certainly you don't see many other Egyptian dancers using them in an orientale piece. Didem looks like she has a strong jazz or other American dance influence. You certainly don't see her style of chest locks in film of older Turkish dancers at all.

Originally Posted by ssipes

And on the other hand we have the Egyptian teachers like Fifi and others laughing at us poor uptight westerners because we are not shaking our breasts enough and instead are trying to do isolated shoulder movements.

I don't think it necessarily a Western vs Egyptian thing. More a part of the class war. Fifi is, to put it politely "beledi". Farida is middle class and Reda. I have noticed that many Reda and Firqa Kawmiyya dancers when doing Orientale will do very controlled shoulder shimmies (they will do breast shimmies when doing folk).

Originally Posted by shems

Well, I think I'd give Amani a big whatevs in this situation.

Raqs Sharqi is an ever evolving artform with many inovations being contributed both by Egyptian, Turkish and Lebanese dancers, all of whom I consider legitimate purveyors. And many of whom do big hip circles and chest locks (Dina and Didem respectively). Maybe Amani doesn't think the Turks and the Egyptians should be included?

She can pretend to be a purist all she wants, but she herself is way more jazzy in her dance style than her progenitors of 50 or 60 years back. Compare Amani to Kawakib (the Lebanese dancer in the following clip).



She is welcome to promote her own preferred tastes in Oriental dance, but there is no reason to be so insensitive in her approach.


Did any of y'all hear the story that the Egyptians started doing the big hip circles to the back when the hip circles that curved to the front were outlawed?

slightly OT, but can i ask about this clip quick. can u tell me what movie this is from? the reason i ask is bc you mentioned that she is a lebanese dancer, but the men's comments in the clip are all turkish ( i can understand them). I'm just wondering if its a lebanese movie depicting ottoman times, or ...? either way id like to see it :) thanks.

Originally Posted by aasiyah

slightly OT, but can i ask about this clip quick. can u tell me what movie this is from? the reason i ask is bc you mentioned that she is a lebanese dancer, but the men's comments in the clip are all turkish ( i can understand them). I'm just wondering if its a lebanese movie depicting ottoman times, or ...? either way id like to see it :) thanks.

Safar Barlik is the movie name, here you go: Safar Barlik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by kashmir

I was told that Dina's hip circles have a strong folkloric influence (sa`iidi). Certainly you don't see many other Egyptian dancers using them in an orientale piece. Didem looks like she has a strong jazz or other American dance influence. You certainly don't see her style of chest locks in film of older Turkish dancers at all.

I think you might be missing my point.

When do we start the clock on Raqs Sharqi? When do we stop it? Are we meant to freeze it at a certain moment in time, a certain look and style represented by a particular dancer or set of dancers? What folkloric influences to we include and which do we reject?

Each of us, and each dancer in the Middle East will define for her or himself what it means, what it is and what to represent from the genre of dance we call Oriental Dance, or Raqs Sharqi or Belly Dance. But it isn't so easy a thing to cage in and say this move definitely belongs and this move does not, particularly when you see these moves being performed by native Middle Eastern Dancers.

We can talk about the roots of particular movements and how they got adopted into the dance, or, if we personally think they should have been adopted into the dance, but I think it is disingenuous to reject some movements on the basis of them being innovations, when there are so many other innovations to this dance form we've embraced (particularly if some of movements rejected are not actually innovative at all). If we attempt to reject all innovation, well, Samia Gamal and Nadia Gamal go out the door with Dina and Didem. Then who would we look to as the pre-innovation dance progenitors? The Ghawazee? The Phoenicians? The Romany people who settled in what is now Turkey? A particular bedouin tribe? Or a particular settled tribe? Would we consider what those peoples were doing really Raqs Sharqi yet, or just the forbearers of this dance?

If you ask me, innovation is one of the hallmarks of this dance form. It's ability to draw from so many sources and still have the essence of what it is, well it is amazing. We don't have to like all that happens and we are welcome to personally reject some things as not classy, not to our tastes, not something we want to teach, not giving the feeling of the time or particular style of this dance form we personally want to emulate, but I think we should be honest about it and not pretend that our personal sense of aesthetics defines all authentic tradition.

Originally Posted by selmaa

OMG wth was that with the chair?! Thats hilarious! I gotta post it on fb, lol But yeh those were some serious breast shimmies!!! Is she lebanese?

It is one of those early Edison films and I don't think they properly documented where she was from. She was labeled as a "cooch" dancer. But here is one that was labeled as a Turkish dancer: Who is also shaking her breasts pretty vigorously.

Mona, breaking all the "rules" with her booby shaking, giant hip circles and chest locks, among other things, in her Oriental:

Originally Posted by kashmir

Certainly you don't see many other Egyptian dancers using them in an orientale piece.

Mona and Fifi were doing them (in oriental) before Dina's time. Granted, Dina took them to the next level, but she wasn't the first.

Originally Posted by TediThomas

Funny, but I couldn't help but think of this clip of Fifi from the very start of this thread. (It's been awhile since I've been on here doing things, so I hope I inserted this correctly.)

Bookmark this clip for the next time someone says, "Egyptian dancers always start an undulation with the down/back half on Count 1," too. Apparently Fifi was not on the distribution list for a lot of memos about Egyptian style.

IMO It seems like Amani is "preaching to the choir". Are the dancers who do T & A dancing (please excuse the expression) really the ones signing up for these kinds of conferences?

Originally Posted by carpediem

IMO It seems like Amani is "preaching to the choir". Are the dancers who do T & A dancing (please excuse the expression) really the ones signing up for these kinds of conferences?

I wouldn't expect many I'll-dance-skeezy-if-it-gets-more-gigs performers signing up for something like this, because spending a lot of money on education isn't their usual M.O., but it is possible to be used to thinking a racier stylization is fine because in certain subsets of the dance (e.g., sha'abi-flavored contemporary Egyptian), these moves aren't necessarily wrong. Amani probably does plenty of stuff that Dina thinks is offensive or stupid looking, too.

As with so many things....art and beauty are in the eye of the beholder.

I'm really confused.



Skip to 2:08 of the video. /shrug

Originally Posted by shems

Everything, but especially:

We don't have to like all that happens and we are welcome to personally reject some things as not classy, not to our tastes, not something we want to teach, not giving the feeling of the time or particular style of this dance form we personally want to emulate, but I think we should be honest about it and not pretend that our personal sense of aesthetics defines all authentic tradition.

Yes, MA'AM!

This is a critically important point. I wish there were some way to make it a universal rule, to the effect of:Do not treat personal preference as the arbiter of authenticity. "What I like" should never be confused with "what is real" -- even if I happen to be Amani.