Thread: Khaleegy!

I've always enjoyed watching Khaleegy and am having fun learning some steps for the first time. I found this informative site. Bellydance styles - Khaleegy I love that first video!

There's something very trancy about the dance, with that heavy rhythm and all that head spinning, that appeals to me, and the party mood, especially with those candy-colored thobes. Have you got any great Khaleegy stories or videos you'd like to share?

Wheee that's my site!!!

I just learned last week that the second link is broken... I'm so bummed, it was such a good illustration. I've found a replacement, but it will require a bit of rewriting. I'll get it updated soon!

Here's a clip I LOVE that didn't make it into the article, because it's Nour is an Egyptian-style Russian who used to dance in the Gulf (Iraq maybe?) but has mostly worked in Cairo. I thought all those influences might be confusing in the article... but her style is so delicate and feminine and joyful, I adore this clip.

Originally Posted by kozmique

There's something very trancy about the dance, with that heavy rhythm and all that head spinning, that appeals to me, and the party mood, especially with those candy-colored thobes.

Not all khaleegi has what I'd call a heavy rhythm - some is very light - but that thob is lightly underneath.

And as I understand it, many people over do the head spinning. A little light hair tossing - up and back - is the way. The heavy down and throb or serious head spinning is more zaar than khaleegi. (And I don't have to add - be careful with those spins - you are risking both your neck and your brain as it thumps against the side of the skull)

Originally Posted by kashmir

The heavy down and throb or serious head spinning is more zaar than khaleegi.

Interesting, I've noted the opposite. In the zar rituals I've seen (& seen footage of), the women usually pulse back and forth, I've not sure if I've ever seen a woman in an actual zar ritual do any kind of head spinning. I see it often in stage interpretations, though.




Whereas vigorous headspinning is definitely a huge part of Iraqi dance, which is in the Khaleej region (most of us don't know enough about Khaleeji dance to differentiate; we're still doing a sort of Pan-Arabian mishmosh, so including Iraq unless you're specifying a region that would exclude it makes sense to me).



I absolutely agree about using caution though! One doesn't just start whirling the head around like that. It takes time to build the strength and flexibility necessary, and even then it may not be a safe movement for everyone — or perhaps for anyone, really.

It's important to remember that there are many different types of Khaleeji dance and music. It's not one single thing, and it's often misunderstood at that. Accurate information on Gulf dance can be quite hard to come by. There are very few teachers from the Gulf and very few dancers who've traveled there to learn firsthand, so the general knowledge base is much smaller than, say, Egyptian or Turkish.

One of my favorite online sources is جلسات وناسة ("Jalasat wanasah"), which is a show on MBC that brings in prominent musicians to perform live. There are lots of clips on YouTube. The studio audience gets up and dances a bit from time to time, but it's mostly about the music.


ETA: The wild head tossing also comes up in some of the Bedawi styles on the peninsula. It's sometimes accompanied by an energetic skipping/galloping step that doesn't look anything like the flat-ball shuffle that most dancers associate with Khaleeji.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It's important to remember that there are many different types of Khaleeji dance and music. It's not one single thing, and it's often misunderstood at that. Accurate information on Gulf dance can be quite hard to come by. There are very few teachers from the Gulf and very few dancers who've traveled there to learn firsthand, so the general knowledge base is much smaller than, say, Egyptian or Turkish.

Agreed. This is why, like I said, most of us are doing a sort of pan-Arabian version and not trying to represent one specific region (even if we know there are regional variations).

We study clips and videos of native dancers, but we rarely have information about their specific ethnicity or region - often we don't even know what country they're from. So the movements get mingled together into a sort of fantasy-fusion that represents a broad category of dances.

I think any dance form can be divided and subdivided. For instance, many people are aware of 'bellydance' whereas others divide it into 'tribal' and 'cabaret' and others think of 'ATS, ITS, Tribal Fusion, Goth Fusion, Raqs Sharqi, Shaabi, Baladi, Turkish Oryental, Lebanese-style" Raqs Sharqi can be further broken down into "Golden Era, Modern Cairo-Style" etc etc etc.

Very few of us are learning Khaleegy at that level of sophistication... yet! Although Iraqi style is breaking out & becoming better known in the US just now. Is that because of the war, I wonder, and patterns of awareness/integration?

Originally Posted by kashmir

And as I understand it, many people over do the head spinning. A little light hair tossing - up and back - is the way. The heavy down and throb or serious head spinning is more zaar than khaleegi. (And I don't have to add - be careful with those spins - you are risking both your neck and your brain as it thumps against the side of the skull)

Ok, I just CAN'T resist:

Its a good thing I have a hollow head - I don't have to worry about my brain thumping the side of my skull!

Seriously, up and back head/hair tossing is what I was taught.

Keep in mind to that there is a difference between "stage" khaleegi and everyday khaleegi. My friend Shadiah who spent many years dancing in the gulf said that most of the "stage" khaleegi we see is nothing like what the real people do. They aren't trained dancers, they are just waving back and forth to the rhythm. I had no formal training in khaleegi but just imitated what I saw the audience do. Only once did I see a girl do extreme hair tossing and bending from the waist and I was told she danced in a professional folkloric troupe.

Any way, here a couple clips of Shadiah in the Gulf doing khaleegi. By the way, she always told me Egyptians couldn't do khaleegi right! So if you are learning khaleegi from and Egyptian teacher you might want to take everything with a grain of salt!

Clip starts at 15:00



The videography in this one drives me crazy, but I like watching that guy in the audience with the neck bobbing back and forth!





And here is Katya Faris doing more of a stage version of Khaleegi.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Interesting, I've noted the opposite. In the zar rituals I've seen (& seen footage of), the women usually pulse back and forth, I've not sure if I've ever seen a woman in an actual zar ritual do any kind of head spinning. I see it often in stage interpretations, though.

I'm sure I did as part of a zar ritual at the cultural centre in Cairo (disk crash has lost me the original footage) - but it was only a very small part of the whole thing - yes, mostly pulsing.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Whereas vigorous headspinning is definitely a huge part of Iraqi dance, which is in the Khaleej region

Maybe in Iraq but in UAE and around there according to Amera (who worked there for years) and Caroline (and Momo Kadous) - no. There is only that lift and back. Caroline said the the drop and pulse was introduced partially for safety as you can get a similar effect using the torso instead of the neck but she abhored the mishmash that many people call khaleegi.

Here's a couple of my favorite solo Khaleegy dances on youtube... I do love to see troupes perform it too though

Great thread BTW

Wonderful thread! Loved the zar footage. Hadn't seen it before. Or any of them for that matter. Thank you for sharing.

So what do you make of this clip of strictly Saudi/Gulf men doing the zar (it's labeled zar in Arabic)

Awesome! You all rock! I am going to have to watch every one of these videos now. Fascinating info as well and answered some questions I was going to ask, like the difference between Kaleegy and Zar. I've always been curious about the Zar, maybe just because my name is Zarina But I assure you I will not be doing any wild head tossing - I've had enough head injuries in my life and I do not need to go inviting a concussion. It's that kind of circular swaying motion that goes from side to side that I like, where the hair flips from one side to the other. I actually find it slightly alarming to watch dancers who go crazy spinning their heads around on their necks like propellers. I'm always a little afraid their heads will fly off! In class we always warm up our necks for the little bit of head tossing we do (only 4 times, not too fast), and she's very careful to correct posture and make sure everyone's moving their upper body correctly so that no one gets whiplash.

I found this khaleeji video of guys dancing with weapons!


More traditional:



This is interesting:

But to add to the confusion!

According to the comments, this is not real khaleeji and they are dancing to Iraqi music:




And the comment on this one is that this is not khaleeji but Iraqi dance:

Originally Posted by norma

But to add to the confusion!

According to the comments, this is not real khaleeji and they are dancing to Iraqi music:




And the comment on this one is that this is not khaleeji but Iraqi dance:

The dancers in the first clip are dancing to Iraqi music, and some of their movements are definitely what I'm learning as Iraqi style. Their dance is clearly a melting pot of styles, I'm sure to a native Arab it looks confusing. What makes it look especially inauthentic is that they're wearing old-fashioned thobes while dancing to modern music. A little like presenting 'American' dance by dancing jazz moves to hip hop music in square dance outfits. Sadly, this is the best most of us are capable of right now. We're learning more, but slowly...

What the posters don't seem to understand is the term 'Khaleeji' doesn't indicate one specific dance style... it means ALL the dances from the Khaleej (Arabian Gulf) and is usually presented as a mishmosh like this.

There's a movement among some bellydancers (and I recognize one of them as one of the posters) to completely separate the Iraqi style from our Khaleeji. Nothing wrong with that, it will be a step in the right direction. But meanwhile, Iraq is part of the Khaleej.

The second clip seems to be a deliberately specific Iraqi dance, which is one of the Khaleeji dances. Someone complained about her costume; the narrow fitted thobe seems exactly right for this style to me, so I'm not sure if that poster isn't aware of Iraqi dance or if they didn't like that she was showing leg?

I'm all for getting more information about the dances of the Khaleej, but I think when people get harsh and judgmental about the mixed style most of us do, it just discourages dancers from doing the style at all. We have to start where we are, and keep dancing (like we did with bellydance before we started getting more specific about regional variations) or everyone will just lose interest. Meanwhile, we can learn more as we go!

This is an Iraqi folk dance troupe performing a traditional khaleeji dance in thobes (definitely some hair tossing & swirling in there by the middle of the dance):




And this is the lovely Iraqi bellydancer Melayeen who is Kawliya (gypsy) performing an Iraqi-style dance to Chobi music.



It's two very different dance styles that are both from Iraq, from the Khaleej. We are learning to separate them, but we have much to learn. I don't know much about the dances of UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain.. there is a lot to learn still. Meanwhile, i think we should keep dancing and people who know more should educate us, not mock us. But that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Very few of us are learning Khaleegy at that level of sophistication... yet! Although Iraqi style is breaking out & becoming better known in the US just now. Is that because of the war, I wonder, and patterns of awareness/integration?

It's probably a combination of factors. I'm sure there are some Iraqi immigrants who have come forward in the last decade to capitalize on interest in the name of rehabilitating the public perception of their culture. Within the dance community, I think a lot of the interest is coming from the Russians and Ukrainians. When I started dancing, no one even acknowledged that Eastern Europe had a BD scene, and now they are major players. I'm not sure why they seem to have latched onto Kawliya so strongly, but other dancers are definitely watching those videos on YouTube.

It does seem like there is more interest in Iraqi music than there used to be. Occasionally, I come across singers who aren't Iraqi (usually from another part of the Gulf) dabbling in songs that sound Iraqi, and I don't remember that happening much in the past. It's certainly possible I just wasn't aware enough to notice before, but I'm noticing it now. I wish there were better resources for learning about Iraqi music in English, because pickings are awfully slim. Iraq has some wonderful musicians and a "golden age" to rival what was happening in Egypt and Lebanon, but it's almost completely off the radar in the dance community.

OTOH, if we're going to talk about trends and interest in Iraqi dance, it's worth noting that the interest seems to be focused on the Kawliya stuff, and not much else. Only occasionally do you hear someone talk about Chobi, and for all the dancers on the workshop circuit teaching how to dance to Umm Kalthoum, nobody's teaching how to dance to Afifa Iskander. Kurds must have indigenous music and folkdance--who's teaching that? Who's teaching what non-minority Iraqis do?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm all for getting more information about the dances of the Khaleej, but I think when people get harsh and judgmental about the mixed style most of us do, it just discourages dancers from doing the style at all. We have to start where we are, and keep dancing (like we did with bellydance before we started getting more specific about regional variations) or everyone will just lose interest. Meanwhile, we can learn more as we go!

I understand what you are saying, but it's also important not to lose sight of the idea that these are not interchangeable ethic groups. It may all look insignificantly similar to us as outsiders, but, yeah, Kuwaitis are kind of sensitive about being mistaken for Iraqis, what with Saddam invading their country and all. The Kawliya are a persecuted minority. It's disrespectful to mistake them for other ethnicities, and the other ethnicities don't care much for the idea themselves (wouldn't be the first time the Roma were dissed). Yemeni Jews aren't eager to be lumped in with Yemeni Muslims as if there's no difference. It matters to them, and if we are going to volunteer to represent them, we owe it to them not to be cavalier.

OTOH, to paraphrase Karim Nagi, these groups forfeit some of their right to complain about how foreign dancers don't understand subtleties when the people who know won't step forward to help us out of our ignorance. Does that mean dancers shouldn't try at all unless they're perfect? No, but part of the learning process is seeing what's actually there, instead of persisting in what we want to see. Take the Iraqi clip you linked upthread in Post #4. Should someone infer from it that it is appropriate to do that kind of dancing in a Saudi thobe to Kuwaiti music? No. That clip appears to be a fairly consistent example of a style of Iraqi dance done in a style of Iraqi dress to a style of Iraqi music. If you want to do that kind of dancing, maybe it's a good idea to stay close to those parameters instead of freestyling your own ethnic variation. It's one thing to try and accidentally end up a little off target. It's another to act like anything goes.

The comment in the Khaled Seif Group clip sums it up: "that is an example of what europeans do to arab folklore.. it looks nice, entertaining but not like the real thing at all." We need to set the bar higher than "Pretty, but wrong."

Originally Posted by norma

Keep in mind to that there is a difference between "stage" khaleegi and everyday khaleegi.

There's "I jazzed this up to be more theatrically interesting," and there's "I didn't know there was a difference." In some ways, Khaleeji is evolving into an equivalent of "AmCab." There's this outside melting pot thing going on, creating something that is taking on an artistic life of its own. The difference is that back in the day, an AmCab dancer at the Falafel Hut might not have been presenting herself as an expert on the folkloric dance of a specific place. When a dancer says, "I'm doing the traditional women's dance of Saudi Arabia," but she's doing some randomly clueless mash up of different Gulf cultures, that's somewhat problematic. Doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to do it, just that it needs a different label to reflect that it's fusion, not an ethnic authenticity as advertised. Sometimes I wonder if the current attraction to Kawliya style is that it fits closest to how foreign students want Khaleeji dance to be, instead of understanding that it's a specific substyle that doesn't necessarily represent the whole.

By the way, she always told me Egyptians couldn't do khaleegi right! So if you are learning khaleegi from and Egyptian teacher you might want to take everything with a grain of salt!

I have heard this, too, from someone who grew up in the Gulf. The energy is almost always wrong. Movements are too big and enthusiastic. Too much crazy hair flipping. Too much emphasis on establishing credibility with gestures. Not that these things can't be a problem with other styles, too--the average foreigner student's Egyptian overly busy and not languid enough, but we can look at videos and native teachers and check our progress against that. The information about authentic women's Khaleeji dance isn't readily available. As a community, we've been chipping away at making Egyptian look more accurate for a couple of decades now. We're just starting to get traction on undoing the misconceptions about Turkish Roma. We've barely opened the door on Khaleeji.

Originally Posted by norma

I found this khaleeji video of guys dancing with weapons!

I can't find it at the moment, but somewhere on YouTube there is a TV program from (IIRC) the Emirates where teams of guys are competing like "'Raqs al-Ardah' Idol." I found this article while looking for it, though. http://www.mcm.asso.fr/site02/music-...evich-2007.pdf

This is interesting:

I'm pretty sure this clip is Bedawi. It doesn't look exactly like what I learned, but there are similar elements--the cane, the face-to-face "greeting," and the prancing.

Originally Posted by norma

According to the comments, this is not real khaleeji and they are dancing to Iraqi music:

I believe it is Ali al-Baghdadi's "al-Mejana." Majed al-Mohandes also recorded a version of the song, so, yes, Iraqi.

And the comment on this one is that this is not khaleeji but Iraqi dance:

I think that comment is only referring to the dance style. The song is "al-Shaky" by Hussein al-Jasmi. He's Emirati and this is just regular Gulf pop.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

There's a movement among some bellydancers (and I recognize one of them as one of the posters) to completely separate the Iraqi style from our Khaleeji. Nothing wrong with that, it will be a step in the right direction. But meanwhile, Iraq is part of the Khaleej.

This is bigger than what a few dancers think. Some Iraqis consider themselves Khaleeji. Some consider themselves Levantine or Northern (from al-Shamal). Some consider themselves ethnic Chaldeans or Kurds or whatever with no obligation to Iraq as a socio-political entity. This is why it has been so difficult to get an American-style democracy to take root. Not everybody subscribes to a single national identity, and the political borders don't mean much. People are pulling in different directions.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

*everything*

I absolutely agree, that's the goal. But until we have information to help us make those distinctions, our choice is to either keep dancing or stop dancing. I'm just advocating that while we learn, we keep dancing. "pretty but wrong' certainly isn't the goal! It's the starting point, unfortunately. We have to start where we are.

Kawliya is a perfect example. The Ukranians and Russians seem to love it because it's showy, athletic, high energy and has a degree of difficulty that's missing from many ME dances -- which makes it play well in competition, and competing appears to be a huge part of the dance scene there. Even I can see that they're focusing overly much on those aspects of the dance and getting the whole feeling 'wrong,' and I see comments to that effect coming from Iraqis and Iraqi dance aficionados all the time. And yet... by force of the sheer number of them doing 'wrong' interpretations all over youtube, they've helped bring this little-known dance form out of the shadows. People became interested, sought out better examples, and now we're having the first (that I know of) Iraqi dance workshop with a native instructor here in the US.

If the Ukranian/Russian dancers had said 'oh we can't do it because we really haven't mastered it yet' no one would have heard of Kawliya, and no one would be dancing it at all.

All I'm saying is, when it comes to these very little-known styles that few are teaching, I don't think we can wait for some perfect level of knowledge before we start performing. I think we lovingly and respectfully give it our very best effort, generate ever more interest, until we can attract native instructors -- and along the way, hopefully, we get more knowledgeable.

I'm performing Kawliya for the first time, with my troupe, this Friday. I've studied for months, with every resource I could get my hands on (including showing a video of our dance to Emma, who is a Bhuzzer and a dancer of Iraqi descent, I hope she shows up on this thread eventually). I'm positive what we're doing isn't perfect, but it is the best it can be given the resources we have. And we have to start somewhere.

Back on topic, though! Here's another clip I just love. I don't know what country the singer or the dancer are from. But the little girl is just a delight.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Back on topic, though! Here's another clip I just love. I don't know what country the singer or the dancer are from. But the little girl is just a delight.

The singer is Hussein Al Jasmy, who I am discovering is a top Gulf singer. The song is Al Shaki.

I recently found this clip and would love to find a copy of the song. Tourbeau has been searching with no luck! It is so unfortunate some of the best music I come across is a youtube concert fversion but good luck trying to find a recorded version. This applies to singers across the board!

I just found the lyrics to song of the video Lauren posted Al Shaky!

http://www.allthelyrics.com/forum/ar...?v=8d6VgO5B7mg

I also found it available for mp3 download on maqam!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

When a dancer says, "I'm doing the traditional women's dance of Saudi Arabia," but she's doing some randomly clueless mash up of different Gulf cultures, that's somewhat problematic. Doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to do it, just that it needs a different label to reflect that it's fusion, not an ethnic authenticity as advertised.

YES! I agree 100%. I've been noodling around with labels like 'Pan-Arabian Khaleeji' to get across that it is, in fact, a mash up of Gulf styles. Sadly, it's either that or don't dance it, because information isn't forthcoming yet....

Ten years ago, we were all being told by our teachers that it was exactly that -- the women's dance of Saudi Arabia -- so to me, recognizing that we ARE doing a mashup of Gulf styles is a giant step forward. Now we can start getting curious and picking it apart!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Ten years ago, we were all being told by our teachers that it was exactly that -- the women's dance of Saudi Arabia -- so to me, recognizing that we ARE doing a mashup of Gulf styles is a giant step forward. Now we can start getting curious and picking it apart!

One single factor is responsible ... YouTube. Think about it. Before youTube, crazy Western women addicted to belly dance would never be able to see Khaleegi men dancing in their private festivals or Gulf women doing their thing.

Just a thought

I just read Lauren's blog on the subject. Nice job. The two songs that Fifi Abdo and Lucy were dancing to are the ones I remember the band playing for me. By the way, they always called it Saudi not khaleegi.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Kawliya is a perfect example. The Ukranians and Russians seem to love it because it's showy, athletic, high energy and has a degree of difficulty that's missing from many ME dances[...]Even I can see that they're focusing overly much on those aspects of the dance and getting the whole feeling 'wrong,' and I see comments to that effect coming from Iraqis and Iraqi dance aficionados all the time.

But I don't think they're necessarily getting the Kawliya style wrong. It's possible that what we see on YouTube by Iraqi dancers is not an accurate representation of the "real" Kawliya style (maybe it's overly theatricized, or the only dancers online are prostitutes and not how "decent" Kawliya women would dance, or it's other Iraqis making fun of the Kawliya), but what most of the Eastern European dancers are doing is fairly consistent with what the allegedly authentic clips present. They're doing what appear to be the right stylistic moves to Iraqi music, and wearing the same kinds of dresses. So far, so good. If something is getting lost in translation, it's at a level most of us are not prepared to detect. The problem is the telephone game when, say, an American student watches what those dancers are doing on YouTube and runs off with it in a different direction, because all they saw was that the clip was labeled "Khaleeji." They change the costume, they lose the Iraqi music, but they're still doing Kawliya style. This isn't about splitting fine hairs and complaining, "Pfft, you should know only people in Basrah dance like that. Nobody in Baghdad would do those moves." This is still up at the "Oh, come on, can you at least google where the singer is from?" level.

The situation is complicated in that long before the dance community started talking about Kawliya as a style, a lot of Western dancers were teaching what looked very similar to that and calling it "Saudi." Saudi information is very hard to find because they're so closed off (you can't just travel to KSA and crash some family party) and you won't find "nice" Saudi girls uploading themselves onto YouTube, but it is possible there are kernels of truth in there. Some of the Bedouin styles can get pretty enthusiastic. OTOH, when you look at all of the other smoking guns, the likely conclusion is that students just went big without knowing better, just like they tend to throw their energy around too much in other styles. And probably a few dancers did get confused about how Khaleeji was different from zaar. (Once you kneel down on the ground and start whipping your head around...)

When you're looking at a culture in five-minute bites from the other side of the world, sometimes filtered by another person's take on it, it is difficult to sort the altered consciousness of a religious ritual from musical tarab from the idea that Gulf music is repetitive because that's just how they roll. Sometimes Lebanese dabke goes on forever, because it's a good fit for how they like to dance socially, and sometimes that's all there is to Khaleeji music, too. Most of us will never be in the situation to experience these differences live, and it takes a long while to get your footing with it, even in the best of circumstances.

Clap! clap! Bring on the dancing guys! (Seriously, if these dudes don't make you want to get up and dance with them, maybe Khaleeji isn't your thing.)

More Hussein al-Jasmi...or "less" if you're thinking in terms of his weight:




And Qatari singer Fahad al-Kubaisi:



BTW, if anyone missed the link to that PDF up in #20 from yesterday, make sure you look at it if you are interested in the history of the men's dance.

There's an Iraqi dance group on FB where knowledgeable folk lament that the Eastern Europeans have Kawliya all wrong. I was referring to that.

I haven't seen anyone doing Kawliya and labelling it Khaleegy. I have seen native Arab dancers performing Khaleegy, in thobe nasha'al and everything, and doing things like kneeling and spinning their hair. Regularly. I don't think that move is purely kawliya at all, I think it's taken to a cartoonish extreme in kawliya dance but it is common in many of the other khaleegy dances as well, as is hair tossing. It's not ALL there is to the dance, but it is certainly an element.