Thread: Belly Dance Debate about the book "Why men don't have a clue , and women always need more shoes"

Some belly dancers are having a debate on the origins of belly dance with the author of "Why men don't have a clue , and women always need more shoes". The author seems attached to the notion it is purely a dance of seduction.

http://www.facebook.com/AllanandBarbaraPease

SEEMS I'VE STIRRED UP THE BELLY DANCERS WITH A TOUCH OF REALITY

Catherine Edmends

...hi just a quick one to say how annoyed you have made the belly-dance community with your ill conceived and inaccurate description of the origin of belly-dance in " why men don't have a clue , and women always need more shoes" - i suggest you actually do some substantial and accurate research before putting pen to paper with this drivel - you certainly proved your title to be true - you truly do not have a clue!

RESPONSE FROM ALLAN PEASE.
From a standpoint of evolutionary biology Catherine, female hips are directly involved in childbirth and nothing else. Shaking or gyrating them in front of the male serves purely to stimulate male attention, nothing more. This is why it was created in the Harems and in Tahiti. The article you posted confirms exactly the things mentioned in book WHY MEN DON'T HAVE A CLUE. Women shake their hips - not their feet, not their kneecaps or shoulders - their hips. The author of History of Belly Dance likes to live under the illusion that belly dance has some other mystical or unknown origin. It doesn't. it was developed in the harems (I am in the Middle East now) for the reasons I have stated. That doesn't mean it is bad - it is in fact wonderful because it highlights female fertility - which it is designed to do. Men cannot do it because there are not physically equipped to do it. I say do more of it! But don't deny your femininity by romantically pretending to yourself that its origin is other than as a fertility dance. Belly dancing gives women a power statement with which men cannot compete. Understanding its correct origin should give the dancer more feminine power than just aerobic value. What we wrote in WHY MEN DON'T HAVE A CLUE may upset some Belly dancers because they are confronted with the reality that Belly dancing has its history in sexual arousal and control over men. I love Belly dancers - they confirm I am a man. If I was a woman I would DEFINITELY become proficient at it it.

Rolling my eyes now.... It's the myth that will never die!

Thumbs up to Amera Aid on Facebook for trying to knock some sense into the guy.

Ugh. I posted my two cents' worth in that thread but people aren't listening to one another as far as I can tell. They are being dismissive about the knowledgeable dancers who are telling them the research is flawed (if there was any research). Condescending and somewhat offensive to me.

oh god, I can't even stand reading the idiotic responses from the author and his friends. What a pig (sorry, my opinion). I love how he won't discuss where he got his "history" from... probably because its his own little fantasy. GAAAHHH... I have to walk away from it or I'll just get too worked up.

Oh Allan Pease WHY must you be such a tosser? You were always so funny on the telly.

I have spooged all over his thread. Does that make me a man?

MellyBelly, I'd say he's drawing on Curt Sachs (ancient fertility Paleolithic hip dance), evolutionary biology/psychology, and Desmond Morris who I think is responsible for the harem girls gyrating on the fat sultan idea. Possibly also Wendy Buonaventura.

He is dumb. And we won't win this argument because he is an Aussie bloke-type who just won't accept he could make a mistake, and who also brings everything down to a universal notion of body language, where everything in the world is ultimately about male/female relationships that have to do with sex roles. He can be very amusing, actually, but he has tunnel vision. Which he will tell you is because men evolved to hunt things and therefore focus on woolly mammoths for long periods of time to the exclusion of all other things. He might be right, who knows? But as we all know, more factors come into play than these.

No point arguing with someone who even wrote a book with that title . If they are that attached to offensive and inaccurate stereotypes of men and women, backed up by highly dubious 'science' (I'll not even get started on everything that's wrong with the majority of 'evolutionary psychology'), then there's no way they are going to be amenable to reason on their use of offensive and inaccurate stereotypes of oriental dancers. Urgh.

Edited to add: but maybe we could still spam the thread with videos of Tito?

I put Tito there, because there is always room for MORE TITO.

Someone, possibly a panicked Barbara Pease, has deleted the thread. On the upside, she can totally use this an excuse to buy more shoes. She can't help shopping, it's her evolutionary destiny!!!

"From a standpoint of evolutionary biology Catherine, female hips are directly involved in childbirth and nothing else"

Ummmm...also so we can, like, stand up. I hear hips are necessary for the whole 'walking' thing too...

Don't be silly. Only male hips are involved in walking.

...and by that logic, only male hips could possibly be involved in dancing, since our lady-hips are physically incapable of serving any function apart from childbirth... But male hips, apparently, are physically incapable of bellydancing. We may therefore deduce that bellydancers cannot, in fact, exist in the world of Mr. Pease. Which would perhaps explain his confusion regarding us.

PS, it would be arguably pointless but still sort of satisfying if we each posted a link on their wall to either a male dancer, or a historically accurate article on dance. Facebook 3am zill brigade!

"RESPONSE FROM ALLAN PEASE.
Women shake their hips - not their feet, not their kneecaps or shoulders - their hips."

No. We can totally shake our kneecaps. I'd love an opportunity to demonstrate. I can shake a foot too! Not sure how aroused it would make him, but there's a definite aerobic value in it.

Could he be more condescending in his response? Just a little bit more?

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

RESPONSE FROM ALLAN PEASE.
From a standpoint of evolutionary biology Catherine,

Ah, yes. Evolutionary biology/psychology. NEVER misused to "scientifically prove" someone's ideology!

female hips are directly involved in childbirth and nothing else.

Well, glad that's sorted, then. Walking, sitting, and propping laundry baskets and babies are all strictly male activities.

This is why it was created in the Harems...

He saw it in a movie, the slave girl dancing to please the sultan. Therefore it is True Fact.

The article you posted confirms exactly the things mentioned in book WHY MEN DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

Product plug!

Women shake their hips - not their feet, not their kneecaps or shoulders - their hips.

True Fact: bellydance is just hip wiggling.

The author of History of Belly Dance likes to live under the illusion that belly dance has some other mystical or unknown origin.

Silly womenfolk!

It doesn't. it was developed in the harems (I am in the Middle East now) for the reasons I have stated.

I have stated it. I saw it in a movie. I'm somewhere in the Middle East right now, so there's my authoriteh.

Men cannot do it because there are not physically equipped to do it.

No, they can only carry the laundry baskets.

I say do more of it!

Not for you, bub.

But don't deny your femininity by romantically pretending to yourself that its origin is other than as a fertility dance.

Apparently our "femininity" resides solely in seducing men. Who knew?

Belly dancing gives women a power statement with which men cannot compete...the reality that Belly dancing has its history in sexual arousal and control over men.

...And there it is: the reason for the "theory." This is why "evolutionary psychology" tends to be a little -- a lot -- suspect.

Quite a racket he's got going there, making money from being "An Authority."

Originally Posted by Tiziri

Apparently our "femininity" resides solely in seducing men. Who knew?

FTW.

I'm tired of arguing with dumba$$es. I'll let those of you who still have enthusiasm for it do the jousting this time. But I'm cheering you on!

I'm sorry to say I've read this book, and the whole theme of the book (carefully layered into many paragraphs and sparratic old jokes) is that men are basically pigs that can't help it SO THEREFORE the best way to get and keep the pig is to be a total witch (w optional) with use of enough sluttiness to keep the guy interested.

I believe the author wrote this at a poker table with a bunch of other men who's wives normally dont let them out of the house.

So, therefore, Why worry about what the "author" thinks? Like his book says; he is all hormones and no brains thanks to evolution, and therefore any point he makes is mute because his learning ability in this matter is blocked by his testosterone since female moving hips are involved!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

FTW.

I'm tired of arguing with dumba$$es. I'll let those of you who still have enthusiasm for it do the jousting this time. But I'm cheering you on!

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with him either. I prefer to lob spitballs at a comfortable distance

(No point to arguing with him: if he were a credentialled authority of some kind working in the field of evolutionary biology or dance/Middle Eastern history (or anything related), it would seem more likely he would be up for the debate -- and would be able to defend his position with things better than "right now I'm in the Middle East on a book tour or whatever, so that makes me an authority on ME dance". But it appears he merely has a book to shill, so no cut and thrust is welcome. I was wondering what academic credentials this fellow has, because given what he's arguing, it's relevant. All I can find is the following: from Wiki, "Originally a musician, he became a life insurance salesman, and then started a career as a speaker and trainer in sales, and subsequently in body language and communication skills." And from their facebook and site, I can only glean that they're "born achievers" who produce "inspirational products for personal and organizational growth." Ah.)

Allan Pease is apparently the type of man who fervently believes that everything every woman around him does every minute of the day is somehow for the purpose of gratifying his loins.

It pleases him to believe that. There is NO argument that will ever convince him otherwise, because allowing other possibilities would suggest that the world considers his winky to be much less important than he believes it to be.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Someone, possibly a panicked Barbara Pease, has deleted the thread. On the upside, she can totally use this an excuse to buy more shoes. She can't help shopping, it's her evolutionary destiny!!!

So, not only are they giving Aussies a bad name as twits - they're cowards as well.

I was wondering what academic credentials this fellow has, because given what he's arguing, it's relevant. All I can find is the following: from Wiki, "Originally a musician, he became a life insurance salesman, and then started a career as a speaker and trainer in sales, and subsequently in body language and communication skills."

Google says he has none.

He was on TV in the 80s as I recall; he was very funny and engaging. But either he's become more of a tosspot with age, or I've learned a few more things. I think it's probably both.

I just posted on their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/AllanandBar...75187755863648


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Edited to add:

I see that what I posted has been deleted, as well as all criticisms by other belly dancers posted today as well. Afrit09, you're right about the cowardice. These people don't feel enough confidence in their own drivel to stand behind it.

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry, but after reading some of the comments here I've landed on the side of laughing. What a hopeless fool. He really need's to read Deborah Cameron's The Myth of Mars and Venus, a few articles about bellydancing, and perhaps a book on etiquette.

Now that I've taken the time out of my busy schedule to write this I must get back to my full-time job: seducing men left right and centre with my child-bearing hips.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Edited to add:
I see that what I posted has been deleted, as well as all criticisms by other belly dancers posted today as well. Afrit09, you're right about the cowardice. These people don't feel enough confidence in their own drivel to stand behind it.

They are using their Facebook page to promote themselves, and remarks accusing them of being wrong (no matter how valid those remarks are) go contrary to that aim. When companies find themselves on the receiving end of a public outcry, they try to minimize the negative side of the conversation. They don't have to provide a forum for people who aren't even their customers to complain. It's not cowardice--it's just business.

It's fine to accuse Pease of being a crackpot, especially when he is, but let's not forget that from his end, he sees a bunch of silly, self-serious women with a frivolous hobby and their knickers in a twist. As far as he's concerned, we may as well be drowning in moral outrage because he mistakenly called Boba Fett a Klingon. The more upset dancers get about how wrong he is, the more it reinforces in his mind how deluded and immature we are. I suspect the conversation would have been different if the complaints had come from Middle Easterners (who are afforded the protection of political correctness when they get offended by someone's ignorance) or scholars (especially male scholars) with academic appointments, but he probably still would have awkwardly and insensitively tried to brush off the feedback before taking the page down.

I suspect I know a tiny bit more about Allan Pease than you do, Tourbeau, and no, the complaints wouldn't have made a jot of difference if they came from "Middle Easterners" or academics of any sex. Amera Eid is of Egyptian descent, for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Amera Eid is of Egyptian descent, for what it's worth.

Yes, but as far as I'm aware, she's still primarily known as a belly dancer, and not a spokesperson for whatever the local equivalent of the ADC or CAIR is. He's not losing any sleep over disrespecting a "professional sultan seducer," even if she is part Egyptian. I was implying it would be more problematic for him to draw the attention of a civil-rights advocacy group who might be prepared to launch a career-damaging firestorm of high-profile accusations of bigotry against him. By ourselves, we're pretty far down on the list of people that other people are offended on behalf of. At best, we'll be in the margins of the righteous noise the feminists will make over the general sexism of the premise.

I'm sure as far as he's concerned, whatever tempest in a teapot the belly dancers can whip up will be filed under the heading of "There's No Such Thing as Bad Publicity." He has no reason to stand down until someone with the social authority to shame him in the eyes of the public steps in, and that's going to take more horsepower than the dance community has, considering a good chunk of what he says fits into the GP's already misinformed world view of us.

I'm curious about what he originally said in his books, but no chance I'd shell out any money (or expend too much energy) to actually get my hands -- or feast my eyes -- on this dreck. A little Googling, though, tells me that in one of his books ("Why Men Lie and Women Cry" is credited, and the excerpt I found goes on in similar gruesome and hard-to-believe fashion about What Men Want in a woman), he said this regarding bellydancing:

"It was originally performed by harem girls for their masters and was used by the dancer to bring the master to orgasm by sitting on him and performing a series of muscular gyrations and thrusts."

Dude. Dude...

Your overheated fantasies about the ideal lapdance are not research.

(Anyone got other excerpts?)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm sure as far as he's concerned, whatever tempest in a teapot the belly dancers can whip up will be filed under the heading of "There's No Such Thing as Bad Publicity."

I'm inclined to agree with you on this, with the caveat that they seem intent on NOT debating about it, hence the deleting -- I think they consider it Bad Publicity if what people are saying (and who is saying it) could lead potential readers to believe they have no idea what they're talking about. Controversy regarding fact tends to scare shameless self-promoters where other stuff doesn't. He's got a lot invested in being seen as An Expert, not some guy talking out of...whatever body part he is typing with. Still, he's not going to debate it, really.

was implying it would be more problematic for him to draw the attention of a civil-rights advocacy group who might be prepared to launch a career-damaging firestorm of high-profile accusations of bigotry against him.

As I said before, you obviously don't know much about Allan Pease. Or professional Aussie arseholes for that matter. Nothing and NOBODY would make him apologise for something like this, that doesn't involve loss of life: he'll just laugh about it and chalk it all up to typical human behaviour that bears out his theories. At the risk of making a huge stereotypical generalisation, I've never met an Australian man yet who'd back down about much in public. Even their politicians seldom do.

As for the harem sex thing, it's straight out of Desmond Morris, so you can't blame him for that exclusively. Blame him for limiting all his research to other pop authors, yes.

Actually Tourbeau you've got me confused and frankly riled. You spend incredible amounts of energy on here and I presume elsewhere bemoaning the failure of bellydancers to do it right, promote it correctly and work hard on ensuring others understand and see true and good things about the dance form, and then you come on here and tell us all to shut our mouths like good girls the second someone challenges us, because after all our opinions bear no weight due to us not being Important Middle Eastern People.

I await the tirade about how it's all our fault that he thinks these things about bellydancers, because he once saw someone doing it badly.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

..... the GP's already misinformed world view of us.

Tourbeau, I have yet to meet anyone with as much hostility towards the "GP" as I read in your voluminous posts (or towards anyone who might intentionally or unintentionally lead the GP to any misinformation. I do not contribute much to the forum discussions. I do spend a lot of time reading them, ruminating, and see how they fit into my perception and experiences as a dancer. I do not mind if someone feels I am somehow ignorant because of my lack of contributions. I do not feel the need to defend myself against misperceptions. Perhaps I am older, perhaps I have danced more years than I care to admit, perhaps because I have put my heart and spirit into learning, loving and performing this dance, but I find myself often offended by my perception of your attitude towards the general public, teachers, performers, students, any anyone else who may not live up to the impeccable standards you champion. I consider it my work to dance as best as I can, to teach to the best of my ability at the level I feel capable, to conduct myself in a professional manner towards other dancers, teachers and the public, and to present the dance as "authentically" as I can, with the tools my wonderful teachers have given me, sharing with the GP the beauty of this dance, without promoting any "misperceptions" along the way. Over these many (many) years, I have seldom found the GP to be quite as ignorant as your perception of them (with exceptions, of course), and what ignorance I have encountered has been easily corrected. I read many of your posts with interest, but do wonder how someone who spends such incredible amounts of time on every conceivable topic actually has time to dance. I am not being provocative or accusatory, I simply marvel at the endless time and and energy it involves. Perhaps as a supplement to reading volumes of Google-able information, I would sincerely be interested in reading about your personal experiences when performing/teaching or interacting with the GP which have led you to so many of the condescending (my perception) and negative remarks I find in many threads. (I do not expect the courtesy of a reply -- I have already suggested this in another thread, and was ignored. Unforunate, as I was truly interested -- ) Again, NOT being snarky, just putting it out there .... I can put in a smilie, if necessary, to show the benignity of my intent ..... and fully expecting to be ignored, lol.

I'd sure like to sic Aunt Rocky on this guy! (We could sell tickets....)

How about dropping him in the middle of a group of Turkish Romani?

Those guys never move their hips.