Thread: Female Archetypes

Hi all, Im having trouble finding the 3 main female archetypes in Bellydancing. Does anyone know what they represent, what characters they are and what they are called. I know a bit about the 'Boss woman' type, called Ma'alima. Many thanks.

You should come to my workshops!

A quick run-down:

Bent el Balad - The Country Girl
Character: Simple, innocent, girlish, sweet
Famous Exponents: Lucy, Naima Akif

Dalla - The Coquette
Character: Playful, flirtatious, teasing
Famous Exponents: Dina, Samia Gamal

Ma’alima - The Boss-Woman
Character: Sassy, extrovert, confident, in control
Famous Exponents: Fifi Abdou, Nagua Fouad

El Sitt - The Wise Woman
Character: Dignified, spiritual, serene, matriarchal
Famous Exponents: Suhair Zaki, Tahiya Carioca

Thank you... I did do your workshop...and it was Fab....but I couldnt remember all the info.:Ahappy:

Beafarhana -

Great info!

This is why I'm on bhuz!

Regards,

Larry

You're very welcome!

I'm just waiting for the *cough*arguments*cough* discussions to get started

Um Kalthoum is also refered to as "el sitt" by many Egyptians.

When this topic comes up I always think of Edvard Munch's various depictions of the three stages of women. This was a recurrent theme with him. He often placed the young girl, the harlot, and wise crone along a road or at a shore with moonlight illuminating the scene. Sometimes the harlot stage is motherly, sometimes the boss woman, sometimes the coquette.

Stages of feminine life echo in cultural representations across time and space. I think of the boss woman as kind of a female warrior.

To some extent all women play all roles throughout their lives. Some are born wise women. Some remain the bint balad all their lives.

What a wonderful way to enrich our dance as these deep seated characters in all of us can speak through any language barrier. Last fall I took a workshop with Jim Boz where we experimented with these characters. Each participant drew a slip of paper with the character name. And then using the same music we were asked to dance in character while the other participants guessed which we were. I was the coquette--a character I often slip into while dancing anyway. In real life I am the boss woman!

Souzan

Originally Posted by beafarhana

I'm just waiting for the *cough*arguments*cough* discussions to get started

..g.: Bea, I wouldn't want you to feel disappointed, so I'll jump in with some discussion!

First, this isn't argumentative. I think your classifications are interesting. Did you create these categories yourself? I can definitely agree with most of what you said. And I think this framework can be useful in helping people who are new to Egyptian dance start building the tools to understand what they're seeing and discuss it with others.

Just for curiosity's sake, where would you put the femme fatale persona? Do you consider that part of the Dalaa category?

I think Tahia Carioca evolved her persona over her career. In her early career, I see her as more of a femme fatale than El Sitt. An excellent example of this would be her dance scenes from Shatie el Gharam (The Shore of Love). But certainly later in her career I'd agree that El Sitt fit her.

This is fasinating...I could see themes in dancers..but I did not know that these were actually developed characters... thank you!!

i never heard this before. really interesting.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

..g.: Bea, I wouldn't want you to feel disappointed, so I'll jump in with some discussion!

Come on in, the water's lovely!

First, this isn't argumentative. I think your classifications are interesting. Did you create these categories yourself? I can definitely agree with most of what you said. And I think this framework can be useful in helping people who are new to Egyptian dance start building the tools to understand what they're seeing and discuss it with others.

I didn't create this series of classifications. Though I've put my own gloss on it. As far as I'm aware, the UK history of the development of the Archetypes theory is that it was put forward by Suraya Hilal, and developped by other teachers in the UK, notably Jo Wise and Maggie Caffrey. I'm not saying this history applies anywhere else in the world, and I'm sure others have had similar thoughts, but this is how it seems to have developped here.

I believe Maggie's contribution was to connect the Archetypes which Suraya had put forward with Jungian feminine archetypes (but I don't have the details of the Jungian connection)

Just for curiosity's sake, where would you put the femme fatale persona? Do you consider that part of the Dalaa category?

I think Tahia Carioca evolved her persona over her career. In her early career, I see her as more of a femme fatale than El Sitt. An excellent example of this would be her dance scenes from Shatie el Gharam (The Shore of Love). But certainly later in her career I'd agree that El Sitt fit her.

Personally I think that the Femme Fatale is a combination of Dalla & Maalima. Most people are probably a mix, but sometimes one aspect is particularly strong. And as you say, a person's style changes during their career/personal development. Fifi, for example was very Bint el Balad as a younger dancer, then became more Dalla, and finished up very Ma'alima.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Personally I think that the Femme Fatale is a combination of Dalla & Maalima. Most people are probably a mix, but sometimes one aspect is particularly strong. And as you say, a person's style changes during their career/personal development. Fifi, for example was very Bint el Balad as a younger dancer, then became more Dalla, and finished up very Ma'alima.

Bea, thanks for your response! Yes, I can see how the femme fatale would be a mix of Dalaa and Ma'alima.

Anyway, it's an interesting way to think about the Egyptian dancers. Thanks for sharing it!

Bea - I've always wondered where this came from !

Love this thread. Thanks...

Wow! I've just had a major breakthrough on a dance I'm working on for my hafla with Aziza thanks to this thread.

I videoed myself dancing it yesterday and hated what I was seeing. Then, reading this thread I realised, I was being very lively and bouncy in the dance and it just doesn't suit the look of me (I'm tall, very wide hipped and very much the wrong side of 40!)

So without changing the choreography massively, I changed the feel to 'el sitt' and suddenly it's working!

Thank you Seher and thank you Bea

Oh I'm so jellus. I wish I could put a hafla on here with Aziza (there isn't the interest - :-( Insane....

Great thread! And thanks for the list, Bea!

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Oh I'm so jellus. I wish I could put a hafla on here with Aziza (there isn't the interest - :-( Insane....

Come to ours!! Flights from Edinburgh are so cheap. In fact I'm flying Fereshteh down to perform in the hafla

Do you have any performance spots left ? My b/f would probably think it was madness of course....hmmm...

Thanks for this information, it's a very interesting way of thinking about dance personas and tones. My first teacher was definitely El Sitt, and my second more of Bent el Balad/Dalla. Fun!

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Do you have any performance spots left ? My b/f would probably think it was madness of course....hmmm...

Sorry, they're all gone :(

Very interesting thread, I'm taking notes ..g.: !

This rocks! Bea, how does a dancer find her strongest character? or is it something you have to try on for size, like Sunshine? Can you hold an online Bhuz workshop?? ..g.:

Bea, i'm familiar with these archtypes, but i've been wondering: are these archtypes recognized by Egyptians as archtypes, or is this an outside perspective we use to examine characters in dance? that is, if an Egyptian says "Dina is such a Dalla", are they thinking only "Dina is a flirt" or is "Dina represents the [harlot]" also present?
does that make sense?
of course Egyptians use these terms, but that doesn't mean they buy into the archtype concept, any more than a westerner who says "xyz is a slut" is necessarily considering the maiden/harlot/crone prism.

very interesting information! I would definitely say I, (still) am the country girl in a lot of ways, both as a person and as a dancer. How does one change ways? Can it be influenced or forced, or must it come naturally in time? I sometimes tire of always being the "nice, sweet" girl and wish to be seen as tougher.

Originally Posted by carolynn

Bea, i'm familiar with these archtypes, but i've been wondering: are these archtypes recognized by Egyptians as archtypes, or is this an outside perspective we use to examine characters in dance? that is, if an Egyptian says "Dina is such a Dalla", are they thinking only "Dina is a flirt" or is "Dina represents the [harlot]" also present?
does that make sense?
of course Egyptians use these terms, but that doesn't mean they buy into the archtype concept, any more than a westerner who says "xyz is a slut" is necessarily considering the maiden/harlot/crone prism.

Probably no more so than in the US saying that a particular woman is a diva or a ***** or a control freak. But get academics together and they will codify these labels into archetypes.

Seriously, I think these are deeply rooted feminine roles found in every culture, so universal that they almost go without saying.

Souzan

I want to dance just like Tito, only with boobs.

What would THAT make me?

the maiden/harlot/crone prism.

Can I just say how much I love the way that in this system, a woman can only be a virgin, a whore or a (implied) sexless old lady? Where does the mother archetype fit in - or does she have to be a harlot because she had sex?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Can I just say how much I love the way that in this system, a woman can only be a virgin, a whore or a (implied) sexless old lady? Where does the mother archetype fit in - or does she have to be a harlot because she had sex?

I thought it was maiden/mother/crone, which seems almost more unfair, because you get to have sex once and bam! that's it, you're stuck with a baby.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Can I just say how much I love the way that in this system, a woman can only be a virgin, a whore or a (implied) sexless old lady? Where does the mother archetype fit in - or does she have to be a harlot because she had sex?

"Archetype" is a word that was coined by a man, as were the three female archetypes. I mean, isn't this just a roadmap of every man's fantasy?

Souzan