Thread: History of Cane?

How old is cane dance and how did it come about? I've heard two different accounts.

There was a thread on Old Bhuz with a lot of new (to me) info...

I don't remember how to get into Old Bhuz to post a link to that thread, though. Anyone?

Here's a thread I started on the subject:

http://bellydancing.bhuz.com/forum/topic.asp?...ms=Stick+dance

Lauren, I get into Classic Bhuz by going into the Announcement forums and finding the link in the Classic Bhuz is back thread.

I should figure out a way to make a shortcut for myself--I go there a lot.

Thanks, Taj! That was the thread I meant, but I had the details wrong. In fact, I should go edit my previous post before it gets lodged wrong in someone else's memory.

I'm still a little confused about exactly WHEN the women's Saidi cane dance originated, and where/when/how/why/whether it's 'really' done in by Saiidi women in an 'offstage' environment.

Originally Posted by Taj

Here's a thread I started on the subject:

http://bellydancing.bhuz.com/forum/topic.asp?...ms=Stick+dance

Lauren, I get into Classic Bhuz by going into the Announcement forums and finding the link in the Classic Bhuz is back thread.

I should figure out a way to make a shortcut for myself--I go there a lot.

Darn it! ,m:: I searched the archives for "assaya" and "cane", but didn't think to look for stick. Sorry for re-hashing another old thread. I did read all the entries under the old thread and there is still no defitive answer on the first documented date of stick dance and who did it.

There's no such thing as "re-hashing" on Bhuz!

Btw, why don't you share with us the two accounts you've heard?

I did read all the entries under the old thread and there is still no defitive answer on the first documented date of stick dance and who did it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of folk tradition.

Originally Posted by Taj

There's no such thing as "re-hashing" on Bhuz!

Btw, why don't you share with us the two accounts you've heard?

One was the "making fun of the men and their war sticks" and the other was that the cane or stick was an everyday item used to fight off wild animals, harvest dates from trees, and walk through the desert.

Arwen, I know I have read in several places that Tatib dance existed in Ancient Egypt and is depicted on Ancient Egyptian Templets or Temple carvings. I recently read an article that this dance was carried to Somolia in 2000 b.c. on the Frankenscence route. The article did not give references.

But maybe this is enough info to help you get started on some research on the net. Let us know what you find out.

It would be cool to find out the first documented date. Hopefully you will find an Egyptologist site that has this info, otherwise it sounds like alot of research.

Also, I have read that this dance is the only surviving dance from Ancient Egypt and appears to performed in the same way as depicted. The article I read about the Somolians performing this dance appears to be the same as performed in upper Egypt. One more point, after seeing a video clip of this same dance in Dubai, I read that this dance is thought to of been brought by Egyptian Trade routes to Dubai, but no dates on that.

Book I read about Dubai Tahtib dance in - World Dance Series "Middle Eastern Dance".

My favorite clip of Dubai Tahtib dance -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnMEmuFgyms

to some , the cane is the dance partner...some feel, it is the "male" image .we were taught it came from saidi horse men, who use the stick dance, and actually do it standing on horse back.one of our members saw all this in egypt.

There are also cane dances in the Gulf as well as the Levant. Let's not forget that!

Originally Posted by Arwen

One was the "making fun of the men and their war sticks" and the other was that the cane or stick was an everyday item used to fight off wild animals, harvest dates from trees, and walk through the desert.

Arwen, both accounts you heard are correct. Here's what Mahmoud Reda said...

The Saidi men's stick dance as we know it today did originate as the men carrying sticks to fight off predators, either 4-legged or human, who might try to attack them or their livestock in the fields. It evolved into a martial art known as tahtib, done to help men keep their skills fresh. Even today there are periodic tahtib competitions. The martial art in turn evolved into a dance that men performed.

The women's cane dance arose as a means of lightly teasing one's brothers, husbands, and fathers about their manly sticks. Because the woman is essentially saying, "That stick doesn't make you such a manly man, see, I can play with a stick too!" the Saidi women's stick dance is done with a girly-girl attitude.

Regarding the assertion that tahtib drawings have been found in ancient tombs, I'm not famliar with that one. I wonder which tombs, and what the drawings looked like! I know I didn't see anything like that in the tombs of Saqqara, but then Saqqara isn't in the Said, so maybe it was found somewhere around Luxor? I'd love to know!

Fantastic! I love it! Did you speak with Mr. Reda or is this written down somwhere? I'd love to be able to have documentation for a paper I'm working on. Maybe this is written down by someone?
How the heck do you manage to know everything Shira?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Arwen, both accounts you heard are correct. Here's what Mahmoud Reda said...

The Saidi men's stick dance as we know it today did originate as the men carrying sticks to fight off predators, either 4-legged or human, who might try to attack them or their livestock in the fields. It evolved into a martial art known as tahtib, done to help men keep their skills fresh. Even today there are periodic tahtib competitions. The martial art in turn evolved into a dance that men performed.

The women's cane dance arose as a means of lightly teasing one's brothers, husbands, and fathers about their manly sticks. Because the woman is essentially saying, "That stick doesn't make you such a manly man, see, I can play with a stick too!" the Saidi women's stick dance is done with a girly-girl attitude.

Regarding the assertion that tahtib drawings have been found in ancient tombs, I'm not famliar with that one. I wonder which tombs, and what the drawings looked like! I know I didn't see anything like that in the tombs of Saqqara, but then Saqqara isn't in the Said, so maybe it was found somewhere around Luxor? I'd love to know!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Arwen, both accounts you heard are correct. Here's what Mahmoud Reda said...

Regarding the assertion that tahtib drawings have been found in ancient tombs, I'm not famliar with that one. I wonder which tombs, and what the drawings looked like! I know I didn't see anything like that in the tombs of Saqqara, but then Saqqara isn't in the Said, so maybe it was found somewhere around Luxor? I'd love to know!

My officemate is an Egyptologist so I've asked her about this. She herself doesn't know of any offhand (her reply was,"errr, I've seen pictures of people being beaten with sticks while tied to posts with skulls on them?") but has a vague memory of seeing pictures of children playing with sticks. She's going to ask some of her Egyptology colleagues though to see if anybody has come across anything in their research. Interpretation of tomb paintings can be quite controvercial however (and indeed any ancient images, I focussed quite a lot of Upper Palaeolithic rock art as an undergraduate and the problems are even more pronounced there because of their age and how little we have left) what may look like dancing to one person could actually be depicting something else.

Originally Posted by KathrynW2

"errr, I've seen pictures of people being beaten with sticks while tied to posts with skulls on them?"

Learn the new style at the next Reda workshop!

Wow..once about 11 years ago Bert Balladine had a great video in one of his workshops B/W of course featuring a few rural Saudi tribesmen. Who would drink Datura liquor and dance on the backs of stallions with the Tahtib staff...quite awesome...

Originally Posted by Taj

Learn the new style at the next Reda workshop!

Te He.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Fantastic! I love it! Did you speak with Mr. Reda or is this written down somwhere? I'd love to be able to have documentation for a paper I'm working on. Maybe this is written down by someone?
How the heck do you manage to know everything Shira?

Shira recently-ish interviewed Reda and asked him All the questions we were all Dying to find out. This ins and outs of the dances he created, his influences, his research even the truth about the melaya leff (yes there are still people out there that believe it is a genuine folk dance)

These interviews are being published in the Zagareet magazine. Not sure how many articles in the series but we are about 3 issues into it by now.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Fantastic! I love it! Did you speak with Mr. Reda or is this written down somwhere? I'd love to be able to have documentation for a paper I'm working on. Maybe this is written down by someone?
How the heck do you manage to know everything Shira?

Arwen, I interviewed Reda for 3 hours last July, which generated a series of 9 articles. The first 3 articles in the series have been published in Zaghareet Magazine, starting with the November/December 2006 issue which had Reda on the cover. The first article in the series was an introductory overview talking about how Reda did his research, how he created his dances based on his research, etc. The second article in the January/February 2007 issue was devoted to melaya leff, the third in the March/April 2007 issue to the men's Saidi stick dance. I expect the fourth to come out any day now - it will be about hagalla. In each article, I've included a map of Egypt which shows the part of Egypt associated with that particular dance.

You should be able to purchase the back issues from Sharina (the owner of Zaghareet) - her web site is http://www.zaghareet.freeservers.com/ and I'm sure you can find contact info on there.

Which reminds me, I need to email my drafts of articles 5 through 9 to Reda for his review/approval....

Originally Posted by KathrynW2

My officemate is an Egyptologist so I've asked her about this. She herself doesn't know of any offhand (her reply was,"errr, I've seen pictures of people being beaten with sticks while tied to posts with skulls on them?") but has a vague memory of seeing pictures of children playing with sticks. She's going to ask some of her Egyptology colleagues though to see if anybody has come across anything in their research. Interpretation of tomb paintings can be quite controvercial however (and indeed any ancient images, I focussed quite a lot of Upper Palaeolithic rock art as an undergraduate and the problems are even more pronounced there because of their age and how little we have left) what may look like dancing to one person could actually be depicting something else.

Ok, my officemate has emailed a few people in the Egyptology world and the replies she has had are as follows:

Dr Lesley Kinney discusses the depiction of the stick dance in her PhD dissertation, "Dance, dancers and the performance cohort in the Old Kingdom" (Macquarie University, 2004).

However this is a PhD thesis and seems to be unpublished. You could probably get an interlibrary loan for a copy of it from a university library. I'd really like to see this so I might do it myself as I work at a university.

I was interested in this as I've had a go at the bellydance version of the stick dance myself! The women's canes are more like walking sticks with a rounded end than a straight stick.

You didn't mention whether the so-called 'dancers' in the tomb paintings were male or female.

Could the dancing scenes you mentioned actually be scenes of fencing? I did a quick search and found these:

Meriroke tomb, 5th Dynasty, 2300 B.C. Saqqara
Petah Hotep tomb, 6th Dynasty, 2250 B.C. Saqqara
Kheroef tomb, 18th Dynasty, 1500 B.C. Luxor
Ramses tomb, 19th Dynasty, 1300 B.C. Luxor
Ramses III temple, 20th Dynasty, 1100 B.C.
Medenithabu

Source http://www.ioa.leeds.ac.uk/1980s/84085.htm

Or even something like this?

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/egy...es/arch61b.jpg

Just a thought ...

Which is a good point, a further poster has pointed out that in the final link they are wearing a mask which may indicate fencing.

And some suggestions for texts on dance in Egypt

Try these:
Cummings, Janice M. 2000. Temple Dance in Ancient Egypt. Doctoral dissertation; New York: New York University, Department of Music and Performing Arts Professions.

Spencer, Patricia A. 2003. "Dance in Ancient Egypt." Near Eastern Archaeology 66:111-121.

Though again one is a PhD thesis.