Thread: Exploring Styles of Belly Dance ~ Spinoff

Thanks for posting that Urban Tribal clip! Now that's good fusion.

AOW! (done James Brown style)

Originally Posted by ouroboros

Great analysis TribalDancer!

I call this the "technique trap" where technical prowess becomes the measure of the dance rather than artistry. This is SO what the dance is NOT to me.

Ditto, my thoughts exactly.

People like to throw around the word "technique", but what exactly does it mean? The "technique" for "vintage oriental" (I like that term!) is different than "tribal fusion". There are different goals and effects involved....and that's great, and doesn't make either wrong. They're just different.

This goes back to the original topic, but in response to Mahsati's posting, I think many people would throw certain Romani forms under the general heading "belly dance." Some, like Spanish Romani dancing/flamenco, maybe not. But I'd at least add the ones I've seen presented at belly dance events:

Turkish Rom
Kalbelia
ghawazee

Experimental Fusion might be a polite way to describe what I would otherwise call some styles.
When I think on I have seen dances( which are called belly dance against my judgement)

HMBD=Heavy Metal Belly dance
JABD=Just About Belly dance
BVBBD=Being Very British Belly Dance
EMNCBD=Emporer's New Clothes Belly Dance
WTPGBD=Where's the Pole Gone Belly Dance
MMBD=Mish Mash belly Dance

and now on You tube I see
NTBITBD No Technique but I Teach Belly Dance or
RBD+ Regal Belly Dance
EBD=Equestrian Belly Dance
Ah well variety is the spice of life!

Originally Posted by arielarielariel

This goes back to the original topic, but in response to Mahsati's posting, I think many people would throw certain Romani forms under the general heading "belly dance." Some, like Spanish Romani dancing/flamenco, maybe not. But I'd at least add the ones I've seen presented at belly dance events:

Turkish Rom
Kalbelia
ghawazee

ah-ha I knew I had forgotten something :)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

At the risk of reawakening an old debate, I want to abandon the use of the word "cabaret". As a descriptor of our dance, it is meaningless - all it means is "person who wears sequins". I like Artemis Mourat's wording of "Vintage Oriental" or maybe Vintage American Oriental, and on my own web site I call it "American Classic". As a word, "cabaret" has too many meanings that do NOT apply to this style of dance.

Years ago people sometimes called cabaret "Casino" - I kinda like that.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Experimental Fusion might be a polite way to describe what I would otherwise call some styles.
When I think on I have seen dances( which are called belly dance against my judgement)

HMBD=Heavy Metal Belly dance
JABD=Just About Belly dance
BVBBD=Being Very British Belly Dance
EMNCBD=Emporer's New Clothes Belly Dance
WTPGBD=Where's the Pole Gone Belly Dance
MMBD=Mish Mash belly Dance

and now on You tube I see
NTBITBD No Technique but I Teach Belly Dance or
RBD+ Regal Belly Dance
EBD=Equestrian Belly Dance
Ah well variety is the spice of life!

love it love it love it! :D I'm pretty sure I don't want to see WTPGBD or EMNCBD but I'm very intrigued as to BVBBD and HMBD.....

Egyptian
Golden Era
Pre Reda/Awalim
Reda (folkdances)
Modern Egyptian (reda based sharki)

Turkish
Pre-pop music/folk based
Post-pop
Folk dances
Roman Havasi

Lebanese
Folk based
Nadia Gamal based
Folk dances

Khaleegi
Beduin based (Saudi, Emarati, Kuwaiti etc)
Iraqi based

North African
Folk dances

American
American Cabaret Bellydance - Hollywood/Turkish/Lebanese based
American Cabaret Bellydance - Hollywood/Egyptian based
American Cabaret Bellydance - Hollywood / mainstream dance styles
American Cabaret Bellydance - fusion based (bellydance fusion with ANYTHING else)
American Tribal Style (ethnic base)
American Tribal Fusion (underground/mainstream dance base)
American Urban Tribal (modern dance/theatrical dance base)

The list is based on technique, expression and application differences.

Kalebelia is not a fusion style, it's an Indian dance style.
Bollywood is a fusion style in itself - so by fusing Bollywood and anything else - you still just get Bollywood. Not Bollywood Fusion.

....

HMBD=Heavy Metal Belly dance
JABD=Just About Belly dance
BVBBD=Being Very British Belly Dance
EMNCBD=Emporer's New Clothes Belly Dance
WTPGBD=Where's the Pole Gone Belly Dance
MMBD=Mish Mash belly Dance

and now on You tube I see
NTBITBD No Technique but I Teach Belly Dance or
RBD+ Regal Belly Dance
EBD=Equestrian Belly Dance

..l;,..l;,..l;,

Oh dear, yes I've seen a few of these around, especially BVBBD, WTPGBD and MMBD.

..l;,

ahem.

Originally Posted by david

Egyptian
Golden Era
Pre Reda/Awalim
Reda (folkdances)
Modern Egyptian (reda based sharki)

What about non-Reda folk dance? It does exist!

And (urban) beledi (ie the beledi which isn't specifically rural such as sa`iidi, ghawazee, fellahin)

I'm also interested in your qualification of Modern Egyptian as "reda based sharqi". I'd include Ngawa, Fifi, and Mona Said etc in the "modern" camp - none of whom are Reda based.

Originally Posted by kashmir

What about non-Reda folk dance? It does exist!

And (urban) beledi (ie the beledi which isn't specifically rural such as sa`iidi, ghawazee, fellahin)

I'm also interested in your qualification of Modern Egyptian as "reda based sharqi". I'd include Ngawa, Fifi, and Mona Said etc in the "modern" camp - none of whom are Reda based.

Hi Kashmiiir.

I put Nagwa, Fifi, Mona etc in the pre-Reda category. I approach Modern Egyptian as the result of Reda-technique dancers starting to do Raqs Sharki and using his technical appoach to analyze movements, ie. Dina, Randa, Raqia, Aida etc.

As for Beledy, Shaabi etc I put those in in the Pre-Reda category.

I think my listing may be a bit confusing without an explanation...so here it is:
I divide by eras of technical focus. Before Reda, there was only one approach - through the folklore and illusion the dancer wanted to create. After Reda, it became important to make a distinction between the two. That's why I didnt write "(folklore and sharki) after the Pre-Reda category.

I myself approach the technical analysis from a Reda based technical understanding, but my dancing has quite a few elements of pre-Reda heritage as well. My Shaabi teacher - Lena Helt - studied with various dancers during her 12 years in Egypt. Among the names is Suheir Zaki - who is definitely a pre-Reda dancer.

The category Reda would be more appropriately named if I called it "folklore stylization", but Reda's name is pretty much synonymous with the time/era/period/stylization of the folk dances... so I call it Reda to simplify things.

Hope that helps.

DaVid

Pre- and post- are a bit tricky too, as some of these "pre-Reda" dancers are still around doing their thing, or were till fairly recently. Lucy's not Reda, is she?

The non-Reda folk issue is also why I use the term "folkloric" specifically to mean ONLY "Reda or the stuff that is quite a lot like Reda." For me, folk is "what folks do" and "folkloric" is "what folks do gussied up for stage." Specificallty, theatricalised presentations of local dances/dance presentations of local culture that is generally State-sanctioned, if not State-sponsored, or was at one time. In other words, group stuff with ballet/jazz influence that has an agenda.

Originally Posted by ouroboros

Great analysis TribalDancer!

I call this the "technique trap" where technical prowess becomes the measure of the dance rather than artistry. This is SO what the dance is NOT to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't much of Tribal Fusion based on Suhaila technique? I know from people who've studied intensely with Suhaila that she emphasizes technique and crazy muscle isolations, but doesn't really teach her students how to dance. Maybe this is a contributor to origin of the over-emphasis on technique and de-emphasis of artistry/musicality seen in a lot of tribal fusion. I know a lot of big names in the tribal fusion world haven't ever personally studied with her, and in some cases don't know what Suhaila technique is despite teaching it in workshops, but I'm wondering if it's something that has filtered down through secondary sources, if that makes sense?

I don't want to come across as knocking Suhaila's technique, I've studied it through other certified dancers and it really improved my technique.

Originally Posted by mathkitty

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't much of Tribal Fusion based on Suhaila technique? I know from people who've studied intensely with Suhaila that she emphasizes technique and crazy muscle isolations, but doesn't really teach her students how to dance. Maybe this is a contributor to origin of the over-emphasis on technique and de-emphasis of artistry/musicality seen in a lot of tribal fusion. I know a lot of big names in the tribal fusion world haven't ever personally studied with her, and in some cases don't know what Suhaila technique is despite teaching it in workshops, but I'm wondering if it's something that has filtered down through secondary sources, if that makes sense?

I don't want to come across as knocking Suhaila's technique, I've studied it through other certified dancers and it really improved my technique.

No, I would not say this is true. Tribal fusion comes from American Tribal Style IMO. Now there are tribal fusion dancers that are grounded in the Suhaila technique and may have started with her then went into tribal fusion and vise a verse. I believe I heard here on bhuz that Rachel Brice was a student of the format in her beginning years, but they also said she does not teach the technique. I find that hard to believe if it is true cause I've seen her dance in person and I can see the technique. So there may be some filtering down through secondary sources that took her technique, but I would not say Tribal fusion is based on her technique and grew from it.

As for what you say about Suhaila not training dancers to dance? I believe that is true to a point. The theory is to give you the tools (technique) to develop your own style and explore and learn other stylization's on your own. As a mentor she will challenge you to dance a certain style and you have to figure out how to do it if you decide to take up the challenge as I did. If that means taking lessons and personal study then that is what you do and you can then apply the technique to that style.

The misconception of her format is that it is just technique hip locks and chest pops and a bunch of jumbled moves to some people. It is not. In the higher levels there is a lot of emotional and self exploratory development and reverence of its founding origin in Raqs sharki. We are required to study the history of the dance.

Now stepping down off :soapbox:

My understanding is that much TF has a foot in ATS, which has a foot in Jamila Salimpour's technical approach, and a good few toes in Suhaila's technical approach, which builds upon Jamila's, plus bits and bobs of other things. So in those cases, it's very Salimpoury stuff.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

My understanding is that much TF has a foot in ATS, which has a foot in Jamila Salimpour's technical approach, and a good few toes in Suhaila's technical approach, which builds upon Jamila's, plus bits and bobs of other things. So in those cases, it's very Salimpoury stuff.

That sounds just about right. I guess my reasoning that it came from ATS is cause the term ATS was coined through Carolena Nericcio and I believed fusion came from.

Now thinking about it further it was Jamila that gave the tribal appearance and style with bal anat. Dancers from there went into their own fusion. So I stand corrected.

Thanks Zumarrad I bow to your wisdom

Not only that, Jamila taught Masha Archer who was Carolena's teacher. THere's a direct line.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Pre- and post- are a bit tricky too, as some of these "pre-Reda" dancers are still around doing their thing, or were till fairly recently. Lucy's not Reda, is she?

The non-Reda folk issue is also why I use the term "folkloric" specifically to mean ONLY "Reda or the stuff that is quite a lot like Reda." For me, folk is "what folks do" and "folkloric" is "what folks do gussied up for stage." Specificallty, theatricalised presentations of local dances/dance presentations of local culture that is generally State-sanctioned, if not State-sponsored, or was at one time. In other words, group stuff with ballet/jazz influence that has an agenda.

I do the same as you Zum. Folk = stuff done by folk, as in folk dances-movement-tradition, developed within the social structure of the local folk.

Folkloric to me is a secondary development within the culture of origin. Still valid, definitely, but a progression often seen as less authentic by outsiders. Though in that case I think the authenticity is to be determined by those it is authentic to.

re Reda and Modern Sharqi. For me personally, pre and post Reda is not reflective enough of the development of contemporary sharqi... when is pre reda in relation to modern sharqi? 1958? Technical execution is one way to divide up eras but perhaps a little to narrow a focus for a cultural expression that combines not only movement but music and culture?