Thread: Exploring Styles of Belly Dance ~ Spinoff

Spinoff from Bordello Belly. What do YOU think is the "neatest" way to divide the belly dancers of the world into general areas of interest? I know not everybody's interests fit into neat categories, and categories can certainly overlap, but I'd like to hear your suggestions.

What do you think the term "belly dance" does/should encompass?

examples:

Modern Egyptian
American Cabaret
American Tribal Style
World Tribal Fusion
Ethnic/Folkloric
Other

or

PanArabic/Middle Eastern
American Tribal Style
Other/World Fusion

Or....any suggestions?

Originally Posted by nasila

Spinoff from Bordello Belly. What do YOU think is the "neatest" way to divide the belly dancers of the world into general areas of interest? I know not everybody's interests fit into neat categories, and categories can certainly overlap, but I'd like to hear your suggestions. What do you think the term "belly dance" does/should encompasses?

examples:

Modern Egyptian
American Cabaret
American Tribal Style
World Tribal Fusion
Ethnic/Folkloric
Other

or

PanArabic/Middle Eastern
American Tribal Style
World Fusion/Other

Or....any suggestions?

Yeah, Raqs Risque.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

Yeah, Raqs Risque.

..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

I usually divide it into a lot of categories, but...here's a try at putting them in a meaningful order. I am probably missing quite a few since I am doing this off the top of my head:

Raqs Sharqi Variations

1. Egyptian (Golden Age/Classical/Modern/Cairo)
2. Turkish
3. Lebanese
4. (Other country/culture based distinctions)
5. American Cabaret

Folkloric Variations

1. Egyptian (Saiidi Assaya & Tahtib, Ghawazee, Zar)
2. Debke
3. Tunisian
4. Guedra
5. Khaeeji (Gulf, Iraqi)
6. Other folkloric by region, country, or culture

Fusion Variations

1. American Cabaret
2. American Tribal Style/Improvisational Tribal Style
3. Bollywood Fusion
4. Gothic Fusion (Tribal/Cabaret)
5. Tribaret
6. Tribal Fusion (Indigo/UltraGypsy/UrbanTribal influenced)
7. Asian Fusion
8. Sideshow/Cirque Fusion
9. Burlesque Fusion
10. BDSM/Bondage Fusions

So - probably missed a few in there...I will come back and edit as I think of other pieces.

*Inclusion in the list does not mean I necessarily advocate any particular style, just that I have seen it and think it should be labeled for consistencies sake.

I love Raqs Risque...even catchier than Bordello Belly! I was hoping for a smaller list...like one you might use for filling out a belly-dance related form for style/specialties in competitions, etc.

I like your general categories, especially Fusion Variations.

I'm kinda surprised no one jumped in to say that Fusion isn't belly dance and needs a completely new name. Interesting...maybe everyone had their say in the other thread?

Fusion is belly dance as long as belly dance is included with what ever is fused! That is the argument. Also, we have, in the past, tried to figure out at what point does fusion stop bing belly dance and start being what ever is being fused.

I like cabaret, Tribal, Folkloric and fusion. You can then get into sub catogories.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

Yeah, Raqs Risque.

Sounds like a good name for a troupe!

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Fusion is belly dance as long as belly dance is included with what ever is fused! That is the argument. Also, we have, in the past, tried to figure out at what point does fusion stop bing belly dance and start being what ever is being fused.

Can you point me to that thread please, Tahira?

To me, the different dance forms are so at opposite ends of the spectrum, I can't believe they still fit under the same umbrella. I'm wondering if the modern Western dance will take over the misnomer, while the traditionalists will revert to something more descriptive? I've noticed a lot of the traditional-style dancers are flat out just not using "belly dance" to describe what it is that they do (preferring Middle Eastern Dance, Raqs Sharqi, Oriental Dance, etc). Will "belly dance" in the near future come to ONLY represent the Westernized versions (ATS, Tribal Fusion, Raqs Risque)? Will the GP still associate it with its roots? (Did the GP even have a clue in the first place??)

Hoping to hear more points of views.

I'm wondering if the modern Western dance will take over the misnomer, while the traditionalists will revert to something more descriptive?

It might, and I hate that. Personally I refuse to use this "misnomer" word - belly dance is belly dance, we ALL know what it is and we ALL know it's a transnational form with its roots in the ME. We ALL know that until very recently, "belly dancer" meant "sexy exotic chick in shiny possibly noisy two piece costume dancing to wibblywibbly Ayrab music while some Sultan guy looks on" to just about everyone in the western world. Even ME people will use "belly dance" when speaking English, and they don't mean Raqs Pony. Personally I don't WANT to have to stop being a belly dancer because some chicks in garter pants think they have more right.

Originally Posted by nasila

Can you point me to that thread please, Tahira?

To me, the different dance forms are so at opposite ends of the spectrum, I can't believe they still fit under the same umbrella. I'm wondering if the modern Western dance will take over the misnomer, while the traditionalists will revert to something more descriptive? I've noticed a lot of the traditional-style dancers are flat out just not using "belly dance" to describe what it is that they do (preferring Middle Eastern Dance, Raqs Sharqi, Oriental Dance, etc). Will "belly dance" in the near future come to ONLY represent the Westernized versions (ATS, Tribal Fusion, Raqs Risque)? Will the GP still associate it with its roots? (Did the GP even have a clue in the first place??)

Hoping to hear more points of views.

NO!!!! I predict that the traditionalists will take back the term. The Fusionistas will eventually find that the belly dance label is too limiting and move on.

Unfortunately, I think that thread is about 2 years old, so I wouldn't be able to point it out.

I blieve that eventually people will get back to basics and a basic understanding of what belly dance at its roots is. And what it isn't. Will that get us respect? Who knows. But one can hope.

{{{HUGS}}}}

Originally Posted by mahsati

I usually divide it into a lot of categories, but...here's a try at putting them in a meaningful order. I am probably missing quite a few since I am doing this off the top of my head:

Raqs Sharqi Variations

1. Egyptian (Golden Age/Classical/Modern/Cairo)
2. Turkish
3. Lebanese
4. (Other country/culture based distinctions)
5. American Cabaret

Folkloric Variations

1. Egyptian (Saiidi Assaya & Tahtib, Ghawazee, Zar)
2. Debke
3. Tunisian
4. Guedra
5. Khaeeji (Gulf, Iraqi)
6. Other folkloric by region, country, or culture

Fusion Variations

1. American Cabaret
2. American Tribal Style/Improvisational Tribal Style
3. Bollywood Fusion
4. Gothic Fusion (Tribal/Cabaret)
5. Tribaret
6. Tribal Fusion (Indigo/UltraGypsy/UrbanTribal influenced)
7. Asian Fusion
8. Sideshow/Cirque Fusion
9. Burlesque Fusion
10. BDSM/Bondage Fusions

So - probably missed a few in there...I will come back and edit as I think of other pieces.

*Inclusion in the list does not mean I necessarily advocate any particular style, just that I have seen it and think it should be labeled for consistencies sake.

This is a nice "distillation". ,r:; While the lines are indeed blurred, it still helps to have a point of departure when trying to make sense of it all.

So are these Fusion Variations really all belly dance?

American Cabaret
American Tribal Style/Improvisational Tribal Style
Bollywood Fusion
Gothic Fusion (Tribal/Cabaret)
Tribaret
Tribal Fusion (Indigo/UltraGypsy/UrbanTribal influenced)
Asian Fusion
Sideshow/Cirque Fusion
Burlesque Fusion
BDSM/Bondage Fusions

Do YOU draw a line? Where and why?

Originally Posted by nasila

So are these Fusion Variations really all belly dance?

American Cabaret
American Tribal Style/Improvisational Tribal Style
Bollywood Fusion
Gothic Fusion (Tribal/Cabaret)
Tribaret
Tribal Fusion (Indigo/UltraGypsy/UrbanTribal influenced)
Asian Fusion
Sideshow/Cirque Fusion
Burlesque Fusion
BDSM/Bondage Fusions

Do YOU draw a line? Where and why?

For me they all *can* be belly dance, but it depends on the amount of the fusion. If say, a performance is 85% belly dance, 10% BDSM, and 5% Burlesque, then I would still consider it belly dance. Once it crossed into 70% jazz, 15% Asian, and 15% belly dance, I would probably say it was no longer belly dance, but a jazz performance inspired by Asian and Middle Eastern influences.

For me it is all about the amount of middle eastern dance included in a given fusion number. Anything less than 1/2 definitely becomes "inspired or influenced by" but not an actual belly dance performance for me. Anything over 3/4s is generally belly dance inspired by or influenced by whatever the remaining percentage contains. It is the portion where it is hard to judge the amount of belly dance vs. other dance forms in that 50/50 up to that point that is usually in question for me.

As always, ymmv - I look at each performance independently and do the fusion calculation like that. :)

At the risk of reawakening an old debate, I want to abandon the use of the word "cabaret". As a descriptor of our dance, it is meaningless - all it means is "person who wears sequins". I like Artemis Mourat's wording of "Vintage Oriental" or maybe Vintage American Oriental, and on my own web site I call it "American Classic". As a word, "cabaret" has too many meanings that do NOT apply to this style of dance.

oooohh, American Cabaret might make a nice new name for Raks Risque! Takes the ME out completely and the costuming fits right in... ..l;,

Originally Posted by *Shira*

At the risk of reawakening an old debate, I want to abandon the use of the word "cabaret". As a descriptor of our dance, it is meaningless - all it means is "person who wears sequins". I like Artemis Mourat's wording of "Vintage Oriental" or maybe Vintage American Oriental, and on my own web site I call it "American Classic". As a word, "cabaret" has too many meanings that do NOT apply to this style of dance.

For the same reason I hate Tribal Fusion, which means "anything NOT in sequins".

Those categories exist as a meta-categorization, in the simplest of terms, which has little meaning. But American Cabaret is a longtime term I don't see going away. So I don't see cabaret going away, either.

And I don't see Tribal Fusion reigning in anytime soon. Just today I watched a video from a well-known "Tribal Fusion" dancer who aknowledged that Tribal Fusion is (should be?) a combination of ATS and other dance forms. Yet not a thing on the video could I point to and say "Aha! There is the ATS influence." Not one bit. Not posture. Not vocabulary. Nothing. And the costume looked like a modern industrial take on old school Am Cab. Then later she comments that what she loves about Tribal Fusion is that there are no definable boundaries, and it can be anything. *sigh* I beg to differ.

No, really. I BEG BEG BEG to differ.

But there it is, on a video archived for all time, sold mass-market featuring a dancer that other dancers look up to and would follow, claiming that Tribal Fusion can be anything at all... *double sigh*

I know some people like to use American Nightclub style instead of AmCab, Vintage Oriental is sooo much nicer sounding.

TribalDancer, do you have a preference instead of Tribal Fusion?

Originally Posted by nasila

I know some people like to use American Nightclub style instead of AmCab, Vintage Oriental is sooo much nicer sounding.

TribalDancer, do you have a preference instead of Tribal Fusion?

I'm not TribalDancer, but I like the term Urban World Fusion.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I like the term Urban World Fusion.

That's a great one. It addresses the heavy mix of multiple cultures in the "World", the modern industrial aspects in costume and sometimes music in the "Urban". Yes, I like it very much. And I think the terms themselves are not only broad enough to encompass the wildly vast array of fusions out there, but are easily recognizable terms for the general public. I think Unmata would fit under this beautifully.

For the fusions which really are still largely bellydance, but aren't really tribal, I like "Alternative Bellydance" or "Alternative Fusion Bellydance", if you like fusion in yer terminology. This is a term I use when I talk about Rachel Brice (yes, while some of her dance is more pop-locky and not entirely bellydance, she still is primarily a bellydancer), for instance.

My take on the tribal terms are at:
TribalBellyDance.org

The article is a combination of my opinions, as well as a documentation of current naming trends, some of which I may not entirely agree with. But it's a good jumping off point for those wanting to learn more about tribal naming conventions.

So would Urban Tribal Fusion contain dance forms like ATS and Gypsy Caravan style? or does UTF only cover the "other" styles?

Is it confusing to anyone else that a soloist would do "Tribal" fusion style? Or is it Tribal because you are recognizing its roots in ATS? or, is that where Alternative Fusion Bellydance comes into play?

I'm asking all this in part because I run a local info site whereby we catergorize teachers by style, and I think, at the very least, we can start instituting the change we want to see. Vintage Oriental has been incorporated (but doesn't totally replace "AmCab" - yet). Tribal, Tribal Fusion, and ATS I think are rather non-descript for those new to belly dance, and I'm looking for terms that help label styles in a way that those new to belly dance can relate.

Can the tribal/urban genre be narrowed down into just one (or two or three) general categories?

Just today I watched a video from a well-known "Tribal Fusion" dancer who aknowledged that Tribal Fusion is (should be?) a combination of ATS and other dance forms. Yet not a thing on the video could I point to and say "Aha! There is the ATS influence." Not one bit. Not posture. Not vocabulary. Nothing. And the costume looked like a modern industrial take on old school Am Cab. Then later she comments that what she loves about Tribal Fusion is that there are no definable boundaries, and it can be anything. *sigh* I beg to differ.

I actually think that there is a school of thought, among dancers who are very Tribal in their leanings to the exclusion of all else, that Tribal dance and Tribal dance *only* drives moves via muscle. So if a "TF" dancer is doing something that looks like an Egyptian move, it's Tribal Fusion because she's doing it "Tribal Style" ie using the muscles of her torso to generate the move. As opposed to the "Egyptian Style" dancer, who is using the muscles of her torso to generate the move, but who couldn't possibly be unless she's had Tribal Training. There are dancers out there who really truly believe a) that there is a single "cabaret" way to do a move that is different and b) that "cabaret" dancers generate movements by jerking around their chiffon-draped bones.

I think it's because tribal has gone to great lengths to differentiate itself and has strict rules, whereas with oriental dance you can be taught a movement in myriad ways.

Originally Posted by nasila

So would Urban Tribal Fusion contain dance forms like ATS and Gypsy Caravan style? or does UTF only cover the "other" styles?

Is it confusing to anyone else that a soloist would do "Tribal" fusion style? Or is it Tribal because you are recognizing its roots in ATS? or, is that where Alternative Fusion Bellydance comes into play?

Clarification. Urban WORLD Fusion is the term mentioned above. And it is what I was commenting on. And it would not include Gypsy Caravan and ATS which would fall under Tribal--anything containing or deriving from improvisational tribal style and its aesthetics and tenets.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I actually think that there is a school of thought, among dancers who are very Tribal in their leanings to the exclusion of all else, that Tribal dance and Tribal dance *only* drives moves via muscle. So if a "TF" dancer is doing something that looks like an Egyptian move, it's Tribal Fusion because she's doing it "Tribal Style" ie using the muscles of her torso to generate the move. As opposed to the "Egyptian Style" dancer, who is using the muscles of her torso to generate the move, but who couldn't possibly be unless she's had Tribal Training.

I think this might be a misunderstanding/miscommunication. I think tribal fusion styles today ACCENTUATE the muscular impetus of moves. It is about tension and release. Whereas I feel that most "cabaret" forms (forgive the broad, general term) tends to try to seem effortless in execution--not drawing attention to the muscular impetus, but still utilizing it in the movements. I would say Am Cab is the one "cabaret" style which seems to utilize gravity and "skeletal" impetus. But of course even then, skeletons don't move without muscle. But it's not the focus of the movement.

Do you get what I am saying?

I think this is part of why tribal fusion has continued to gravitate toward "circus tricks" type presentations. Because one-upping someone who is emphasizing their muscular prowess means even MORE emphasis on physical and muscular prowess, in power and flexibility and control. Hence the pop-lock, the laybacks, the Turkish drops, etc which have become so prevalent. Tribal's muscular driven movement is not unique to that style, but the emphasis and showcasing of it AS dance is. By contrast, "cabaret" (mea culpa again) is about the flow and effortlessness.

I think you're probably right, Sharon.

I meant to write Urban World Fusion, sorry,

That, "Tribal" (which includes ATS and GC) and "Alternative Fusion," then? Would those be appropriate general categories to use?

Alternative fusion sounds like something potentially deviant or blatantly sentimental (think the WAVE it was billed as an alt station for a long time). Blame that on my early punk rock influences. I always think of something which is called 'alternative' as something which really is trying to be in your face.

Now, I am taking this a little personally, as when I fuse, generally it isn't 'alternative' out there, pushing the envelope, it simply uses elements which are not strictly belly dance. Sometimes it's the music, some times it's the costuming, sometimes it is incorporating a dance style which is not, strictly speaking, Belly dance. Sometimes there are a couple of elements which are flirted with. But for me, the word "Alternative" just suggests that it is something way beyond fusion.

Anahata uses Urban tribal as her tag. Or Urban Fusion. It seems to work for what she does. Although sometimes she wonders into Cirque style.

{{{HUGS}}}

Then Tahira, Alternative Bellydance may not be the term for what you do. I didn't say it applies to all fusions. I am specifically thinking of styles that are either a bit more in your face, or are really pushing to the edges of fusion. Industrial/urban music/noise and costuming for instance, that seem so popular ala Pentaphobe and Bassnectar. It just so happens that the ties to punk rock terminology is perfect, as some of these performers today grew out of the punk rock underground culture.

As for Urban Tribal, that term has been used by an actual troupe for many years at this point, and in the tribal community at least, has come to be synonymous with their style. Unfortunately, their style has changed so drastically (at least in stage and video performances I have seen the past few years), it isn't really tribal, and in fact has gone very much into modern interpretive dance-meets-pop-n-lock. They are incredibly talented gals, and entertaining, but definitely moved beyond tribal and bellydance, and I wonder if they are coming back.

I am aware of Anahata's use of the term, and Romani Urban Tribal, as well, but in the greater tribal community, the term isn't really used any more except to refer to the troupe Urban Tribal and any styles which seem to emulate them. Too bad, too, because it worked as a term for some of the tribal offshoots, but is confusing to try and use in that way now.

And Nasaila, yes, I would say that tribal and alternative fusion would be good categories. And as I said, I like the Urban World Fusion, but I like the term because it doesn't claim to be bellydance...so technically, it doesn't fit in a bellydance categorization except to put a label to some of the dancers presently put under the bellydance umbrella that cease to be primarily bellydance.

I like Sharon's "Urban World Fusion" idea. Another twist on that could be "Urban Dance Fusion".

Now, how do we convince the people still calling themselves "tribal" or "belly dance" when they are no longer doing either to rename themselves?

Oh it was someone else's idea! I don't wanna take someone else's credit. I just am behind it. :)

I think the "World" needs to be in that, because it acknowledges the international dance fusions in that one word.

But, no...I don't think we can convince people to call themselves that. As we have discussed in this and other threads, bellydance (and tribal bellydance) are buzz words. Lots more opportunities, community connections, festivals, and power behind the term bellydance. Most people wouldn't give up the term bellydance unless some other term offered more, and/or bellydance events and videos and promoters cracked down and wouldn't allow non-bellydance acts to bill themselves as such. That ain't gonna happen either.

Oh and tack onto my previous post: Urban Tribal labeled their dancing Contemporary Bellydance Fusion on their YouTube:
[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1AUGwPA6Q]YouTube - urban tribal at the luna gitana festival oct. 2006[/ame]

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

I think this is part of why tribal fusion has continued to gravitate toward "circus tricks" type presentations. Because one-upping someone who is emphasizing their muscular prowess means even MORE emphasis on physical and muscular prowess, in power and flexibility and control. Hence the pop-lock, the laybacks, the Turkish drops, etc which have become so prevalent. Tribal's muscular driven movement is not unique to that style, but the emphasis and showcasing of it AS dance is. By contrast, "cabaret" (mea culpa again) is about the flow and effortlessness.

Great analysis TribalDancer!

I call this the "technique trap" where technical prowess becomes the measure of the dance rather than artistry. This is SO what the dance is NOT to me.