Thread: What is the difference between Am Cab & Egyptian Style

Hi everyone,
I keep reading about American cabaret and am curious as to what is the difference between that and Egyptian style. I understand the differences between Egyptian and Turkish ( well have a fairly good idea) I am not sure about Lebanese though.

After reading Amity's blog I had to get up and do some shimmies to see what sort I was doing ..l;, Mine seem to be more knee driven ( but with softer knees that full on straight legs - have been taught that straight or stiff knees can cause damage) As for my arms I tend to hold them them more out to the side, not completely though slightly angled and my rib cage is always lifted and shoulders back and down. not sure what style that is. It is interesting to note that styles can be different from country to country and teachers and I suppose we all develop our own small differences as well over time.
~Sagira

Here's a youtube vid that attempts to explain some of the styles, including AmCab and Egyptian:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHsErY-5rNs]YouTube - Styles of Bellydance Defined[/ame]

I have to say after watching that vid that it does a poor job.

Here's a video of Cory Zamora doing "pure" American Cabaret:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fndHx9LCXPU&feature=related]YouTube - Cory Zamora Famous Belly Dancer Teacher[/ame]

AmCab-style floor work from Cory:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2riUwpvhGVo&feature=related]YouTube - Belly Dance Floor Cory Zamora[/ame]

Egyptian belly dance - Karima Hamed

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mneyO4wnpSI]YouTube - Egyptian belly dance - Karima Hamed[/ame]

It seems that Am cab has a little of everything, or can have and Egyptian is more "traditional" style. Is Ansuya and Jillina typical of am cab dancers? Also does veil work more or less originate from Am cab or elsewhere?

Originally Posted by sagira

It seems that Am cab has a little of everything, or can have and Egyptian is more "traditional" style. Is Ansuya and Jillina typical of am cab dancers? Also does veil work more or less originate from Am cab or elsewhere?

That's true. Jillina is not old-school American Cabaret style, she is a more modern American style, which has more in common with Egyptian, but which still has an American flavor.

Ansuya is more like old-school AmCab, but with a more modern interpretation.

Complex veilwork is definitely associated more with AmCab than Egyptian. The Egyptians started carrying veils waaaaaay back in the '30's and 40's, but they usually just used it to frame their movements and/or quickly discarded it.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Egyptian belly dance - Karima Hamed

YouTube - Egyptian belly dance - Karima Hamed

Egyptian seems to have bigger and fuller movements and a lot of moving around and across the floor.

after watching these vids ( thanks Tamrahenna) I would have to say the style I am taught is more Am cab than purely Egyptian. I think I prefer the softer flowing movements of Am Cab. her in Australia it is referred to as cabaret or Egyptian cabaret (whatever that may be..g.:)

Gosh all the various styles can be confusing. I wouldn't really know how to describe my style now

I have much to learn. Thanks.

Originally Posted by sagira

Egyptian seems to have bigger and fuller movements and a lot of moving around and across the floor.

I would have agreed after watching a lot of youtube videos (and Dina) that Egyptian bellydancers do move around the floor a lot...

but one of my teachers told me that Egyptian dancers do NOT move around the floor a lot.

This has confused me a little bit so I'm glad you asked this question. Let's see what the experts say.

(I do understand that Egyptian dance has smaller, more refined movements, but in terms of use of floor space.)

AmCab originally grew out of (mostly) Turkish influences, so you'll see a lot more Turkish-style movements. It's got a more whiz-bang approash -- Props! Floorwork! Tricksy belly movements! Drops! Big moves! I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's definitely bigger and more dramatic to suit an American audience.

Egyptian is (generally) more subtle, more emotive, with smaller, more controlled movements.

Originally Posted by sagira

Hi everyone,
I keep reading about American cabaret and am curious as to what is the difference between that and Egyptian style.

There's a multi-part article on my web site on this exact subject called Styles of Belly Dance in the U.S.:

Belly Dancing: About M.E. Dance--Its History, Cultural Context, Dance Styles

About a year ago or so, I started to overhaul it. I got as far as the costuming section. So everything up to (but not including) the costuming is pretty solid. From costuming forward, it needs a lot of modifications. But it gives you a place to start.

AmCab was heavily influenced by the immigration of the Armenians and Lebanese and Iraqies in the 60's and 70's to the right and left coasts of America, so the music is very reminicient of this period. Recorded music for dancers was just not out there so live bands of these immigtants, and those taught by them, were the rule rather than the exception. The costuming was hand made by the dancer and had a hippy, ethnic thrift store vibe to it. The belt was worn low, low, how low can you go? The movement vocabulary is equally distributed between the upper body and the lower body with a good deal of folkloric style footwork, while in Egyptian the lower body (pelvic region) dominates and the vibe is very relaxed...I walk over here and here is a hip drop for you...I walk over here...here is a shimmy for you...

I've been taught to appreciate Egyptian dance as emoting and deep feeling of the music you are dancing to. Movements can be large or small - it depends upon what the music tells you to do. Generally, though... movements tend to be subtle. Less is more in the way of movements, and more is more in the way of feeling. It's hard to convey the feeling of Egyptian dance within the confines of most pop music, I feel. It's much easier and much, much, more effective to dance Egyptian to good, classic, dynamic music where you have many different instruments and rhythms within a song to play with. (ie. Oum Kalthoum, Abdel Halim Hafez, Mohamed Ali, Farid Al Atrash, etc). Arms tend to be less dictated and more eloquently going along for the ride. And probably the coolest thing taught to me by Hadia and Denise Enan? Not everything you do has to be an actual "move". Sometimes you just have to let the music take you on a journey and let what comes out... come out. (So you might end up combining several movements into one move, etc). There are fewer props: You may see candelabras, sagat, canes/sticks, and veils (discarded after entrance).

In AmCab, there seems to be less of an internal connection with the music and less subtlety in the dance. Various styles of belly dance are incorporated and choreographies are often more predictable. Isolations to me, can sometimes seem rather large, jarring and even robotic. Emphasis on where your arms ought to be during certain movements. Music is often pop or synthesized music and mixtures of different styles. (ie. Indian, Turkish, Egyptian, Hip Hop, etc). I find a lot of AmCab dancers dance more to the rhythm and less to certain instruments or vocals. You'll see more props: sagat, veils/double veils, candles, fans, poi, wings, swords etc... I know I seem harsh in my description here and I don't mean to be. AmCab is lovely, but these are the influences of our Westernized music and dance forms have had on the dance. Bigger, and better is what our jaded society expects to see and appreciates as talent. So we strive to perfect each detail of movement a little too much... a little too calculated or big to make it Egyptian.

It's tough to outline the differences because in my opinion, a lot of dancers combine both styles. It can be lovely (ie. Jillina or Aziza are great examples), but the style becomes muted and not so clearly defined.

Obviously I'm more invested in Egyptian dance... it's a style I'm very passionate about and driven to excel in. But by no means do I mean to suggest that AmCab isn't every bit as lovely. It depends on what YOU like, and what your audience expects (and the general, jaded public does seem to appreciate AmCab more as a rule. Not always... but more frequently).

Just my humble opinion based on my own research and training. I think this is a topic where a lot of people have varying opinions.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

And probably the coolest thing taught to me by Hadia and Denise Enan? Not everything you do has to be an actual "move". Sometimes you just have to let the music take you on a journey and let what comes out... come out. (So you might end up combining several movements into one move, etc). There are fewer props: You may see candelabras, sagat, canes/sticks, and veils (discarded after entrance).

In AmCab, there seems to be less of an internal connection with the music and less subtlety in the dance. AmCab tends to make me think of the whole bigger is better, entertain your jaded audience thing. Various styles of belly dance are incorporated and choreographies are more predictable. Isolations to me, can sometimes seem jarring and robotic. Emphasis on where your arms ought to be during certain movements. Much is often pop or synthesized music and mixtures of different styles. (ie. Indian, Turkish, Egyptian, Hip Hop, etc). I find a lot of these dancers dance more to the rhythm and less to certain instruments or vocals. You'll see more props: sagat, veils/double veils, candles, fans, poi, swords etc...

huh, that's not how I think of AmCab at all. This was the style of my first teacher and she was well known for it. She always emphasized a connection to the music, and a balance between large sweeping movements and drawing your audience into smaller internal movements. The music she like to use was mostly traditional Turkish or other music that I think of as AmCab like George Abdo.
She was also always very big on emphasizing feminine,expressive arms. You're quote about not everything having to be a "move" is defnitely something I would say applies to all styles, not just Egyptian.
Oh, my teacher did love her props though, that's true. We all had our hands on every single prop within the first two years of class!

Originally Posted by mariyah13

huh, that's not how I think of AmCab at all. This was the style of my first teacher and she was well known for it. She always emphasized a connection to the music, and a balance between large sweeping movements and drawing your audience into smaller internal movements. The music she like to use was mostly traditional Turkish or other music that I think of as AmCab like George Abdo.
She was also always very big on emphasizing feminine,expressive arms. You're quote about not everything having to be a "move" is defnitely something I would say applies to all styles, not just Egyptian.
Oh, my teacher did love her props though, that's true. We all had our hands on every single prop within the first two years of class!

Well, I tried best I could.. I'm not the best with words. But this is a perfect example of varying opinions and the incorporation of various dance styles into AmCab. It sounds to me as though your first teacher had a lot of Turkish influence.

Amcab, or classic American style, just like every other style, has changed over the years. I learned in the mid/late '70's when there was becoming much more of an Egyptian influence. The bottom line, really, is that it incorporates aspects of many different styles, including Western dance .... jazz, ballroom, ballet. Now, ofcourse, Egyptian style is incorporating more ballet and some latin, so dancers like Randa move around the floor a lot more than they used to.

Traditionally, Amcab incorporates the 3 to 7 part show. That is, entrance, veil, up tempo number, floorwork, moving through the audience for tips to med/fast rhythm, drum solo and finale (which might be a karsilama), or any combination thereof. So, to me, that would be the true definition of it rather than which combination of styles are used or how they're executed.

As for connection to the music, I have to say that says more about the dancer herself than the style she's using. Hopefully, we all strive for that, because surely that's the essence of what dance is about! At the same time, it's true that Egyptian style does include a lot more emphasis on facial expression and "acting" (for want of a better description) out the lyrics.

Adishakti, I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other. I had 15 years of training in this style, starting in 1981. From your description, I'd say that the dancers you've seen perform in the American Classic style are perhaps not top-quality examples of what this style can be.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

In AmCab, there seems to be less of an internal connection with the music and less subtlety in the dance. Various styles of belly dance are incorporated and choreographies are often more predictable.

Regarding connection to the music, I'd say that's partially true. A good dancer of this style will connect to the phrasing of the melody, the musical mood, and the rhythm. However, she probably won't connect to the lyrics, because she probably doesn't know what they're about. She also won't have the historical/cultural perspective that a typical Egyptian-style dancer has on Kalthoum, Abdel Wahab, etc. So she'll be missing one facet of relating to the music, but she'll still have musicality.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

Isolations to me, can sometimes seem rather large, jarring and even robotic. Emphasis on where your arms ought to be during certain movements.

Jarring? Robotic? No, not if the dancer is good. If someone dance style is jarring, it's because she still has room to grow as a dancer. As for robotic, I see this any time anyone of any style is thinking about technique too much while she's dancing or counting her choreography in her head. I've seen plenty of this in Egyptian-style performances as well as in American Classic and the various Tribal flavors. That's not a style thing, it's a dance skill thing. I would, however, agree with you that there is a lot of attention paid to arms, since our Western culture's dance traditions tend to be limb-oriented.

Music is often pop or synthesized music and mixtures of different styles. (ie. Indian, Turkish, Egyptian, Hip Hop, etc).

Pop? Synthesized? The dancers in your region must have a very different take on American Classic style than I do. I'm accustomed to the primary music used for this style being folk songs played on traditional instruments. Music such as that played by John Bilezikjian, Harry Saroyan, Sirocco, Brothers of the Baladi (especially their earlier work), and the Sultans. I'd agree that American Classic dancers mix music from different ethnic origins, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone in that style incorporate hiphop or Indian. Again, maybe this is a regional difference. I'm accustomed to seeing the mix incorporate Egyptian, Turkish, Armenian, Greek, and perhaps a dose of Moroccan or Persian here and there.

I find a lot of AmCab dancers dance more to the rhythm and less to certain instruments or vocals. You'll see more props: sagat, veils/double veils, candles, fans, poi, wings, swords etc...

I agree with your comments about rhythm and props.

Well, Shira has been around a lot longer than I have been, and done a lot more research too! When in doubt, listen to her, Sagira. ;-)

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I would have agreed after watching a lot of youtube videos (and Dina) that Egyptian bellydancers do move around the floor a lot...

but one of my teachers told me that Egyptian dancers do NOT move around the floor a lot.

This has confused me a little bit so I'm glad you asked this question. Let's see what the experts say.

(I do understand that Egyptian dance has smaller, more refined movements, but in terms of use of floor space.)

Nepenthe, If I'm correct this same teacher told me the same thing . I think the choice to move around or do a move in one spot varies. The music dictates what you do which I kow this same teacher has taught :) There is a routine on video of Fifi Abdo performing (purple or blue costume) to a live band and audience and she moves around the stage. In that same performance she stays in place and shimmies to Ana Fi Intizarak (correct me if I'm wrong).

In performances, I won't stay in one place if the music (Egyptian, Arabic, Lebanese, etc.) is telling me to go ..g.: I also think it depends on the dancer's style for example the youtube videos of Lucy from DC does not seem to travel a lot in her performances (not counting the melaya). Not that anything is wrong with that, she does a beautiful subtle Egyptian style. It is a different style from what Nourhan Sharif does who is heavily influenced by Yousry.

So I think it varies. Fifi Abdo's style is different from Dina's style. Dina's style is different from Lucy of Egypt.

I am by no means an expert :)

The one thing which I noticed hasn't been mentioned is origin of the movement.

I was taught long ago and not so far away that in Egyptian the movements tend to originate from the internal muscles. Example: A hip lift generally comes from the tightening of the obliques in Egyptian while in AmCab, the can and many times do originate from the knee. One is more straight up and down while the other tends to have a slightly up and out movement.

Now, there are exceptions to both rules. So take the above with a grain of salt.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I would have agreed after watching a lot of youtube videos (and Dina) that Egyptian bellydancers do move around the floor a lot...

but one of my teachers told me that Egyptian dancers do NOT move around the floor a lot.

This has confused me a little bit so I'm glad you asked this question. Let's see what the experts say.

(I do understand that Egyptian dance has smaller, more refined movements, but in terms of use of floor space.)

Classical Egyptian does use a lot of floor patterns - but it isn't the general case.

"Modern" Egyptian uses small movements - but there are other styles which are larger. Think of Fifi or Mona.

For me the difference is something to do with the attitude of the dancer and the way s/he interacts with the music, the musicians and the audience. With Egyptian I see less "tricks", obvious technique, razzle dazzle, props (other than cane), or high energy. I see apparently simpler, effortless movement (which as dancers we know is damn hard!), a more centred almost internal focus, a playfulness.

Hard to put in words, but I know it when I see it

Yes, I'd agree Kashmir, I think of the "feeling" as the primary difference. The Egyptian dancer often dances for herself, inside the music, while the American Classic dancer is interacting highly with the audience. It's the Egyptian dancer's job to be the visual representation of the singer and band, whereas it's the American dancer's job to entertain/engage the onlookers. There are exceptions to this, of course (like Fifi!) but to me the 'style' is defined more by that than by the way moves are executed or the costume the dancer is wearing.

Shira, I respect your research on the matter, but I'd like to question some of what you said for the sake of learning. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Aside from the likes of Cory who is a beautiful dancer, I feel there is a difference between old style AmCab and newer AmCab just as much as there has been a progression and change of Egyptian style dance over the years.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the following clips are AmCab in my opinion, and do tend to fit my description in many ways. I would also deem these ladies to be talented dancers.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-rCxheWSiY]YouTube - Rachel George Rakkasah 2006[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBcPk5xoHwY]YouTube - Kaya & Sadie[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viKwv579ooA]YouTube - Saida performing Alf Leyla Wa Leyla at Pergamino July 2005[/ame]

Now, moving onto Egyptian... good examples of modern dance to me would be.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCTXgC5e6L4]YouTube - Dina[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxuliJSrYWM]YouTube - Soraya Cairo Bellydancer[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QLgHILuXw0]YouTube - Dandesh[/ame]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, I wouldn't consider Saida AmCab in that clip. Maybe not even Rachel (though they both have some "other" influence for sure). Hell, now I'm confused!!

Originally Posted by nasila

Now, I wouldn't consider Saida AmCab in that clip. Maybe not even Rachel (though they both have some "other" influence for sure). Hell, now I'm confused!!

What would you call it then?
Not being argumentative here... just looking for clarification, 'cause I'm bewildered myself.

I feel I know Egyptian when I see it too... but how to you put that into words? How would you explain the tangible differences to a student?

Not so easy or clear-cut, I feel... and largely open to individual interpretation.

Rachel is borderline tribal fusion even though she's wearing sequins; I see pops/locks, some Ansuya moves and some Indian-inspired stuff. Maybe World Fusion Belly Dance? ,r:; Saida is closer to Egyptian with some "other" influence. More like modern Egyptian even; although she's a bit busier and her movements are a lot larger than your usual Egyptian style dancer, she's got a definite focus of "internalizing" the music....which comes across more than her connection to the audience. If that makes any sense. ..c::

ah, wait, Rachel may fit under the Neo Classical term that meena_oasis just posted on another thread. I think she's similar in style to Ava Flemming.

I am doing egyptian style. Not all of my formation was, though!
From what I have learned and see, the difference between amcab and égyptian is in 2 parts. first, in the interpretation of the music and the styling of it.
I would say, Amcab is of a faster pace, in both classical music and let's say, the drum solos. Amcab tend to hit on the rythms, ... on every rythms, while in Egyptian, you are not afraid to let go a count or 2 and, take a pause. I think , the "pause" is very egyptian. Ameraicain seem not to pause, to my point of view.
I would say that am cab dance faster. It's a matter of opinion but looking at so many vidéos , I have came to this result.
On the other hand, the veil work, from a to z i.e. if the music is 4 minutes, it would be dance with veil for 4 minutes wich in egyptian would never be done, because, veil is like zills, ... good for the entrance, and for zills, played by the musicains! i don't say it is a rule but, a tendancy, let's say.

An egyptain style dancer is more internal than an amcam one. You could feel it by the muscular work . And, that is vey obvious to the eyes when the work is done muscular or squelettical,,, subtal vs rougher.
Anyways, there are 2 styles, one should decide which onfort her and go tho it. Me, i go for egyptain, that's all.
Lorraine

I wouldn't consider any of those dancers as AmCab (fine I'm gonna have to use the C word for briefness' sake), they're more like Westernized Egyptian I would put them in the same category as Jillina. Also we have to account for regional variations, Not-Egyptian doesn't necessarily make it AmCab, most Latin American dancers seem influenced by Lebanese style (but better than LBC), which makes sense given that they're the group most likely to be found there due to the war. I have never seen an AmCab dancer use as much ballet as Saida, the traveling steps tend to be a lot simpler too.

Did you see the Cory clips? I think she's a good representation, Ansuya is too of how it has evolved into modern times in the numbers she's not doing Indian fusion. I have to go, but I'm sure other people will post clips of good representations.

I would say Saida in that clip is Egyptian or I guess "westernized Egyptian" She is very influenced by ballet and uses some larger movements, but then so does Randa.

The pop/lock thing is something I see mostly from California/west coast dancers. Maybe its Suhaila influence? Its not something I see from dancers out here with the exception of tribal fusion and Bellyqueen who would also fall under the category of "world fusion"

I do disagree that the difference is between internal/external. I think that is individual to the dancer. I see dancers of both styles who represent this. In Egyptian you have Soheir Zaki who is all about internalizing the music and Nagua and Fifi who are real show women!
Of course any good dancer internalizes and expresses the music but some people are just either more internal or "out there" in their performance.

I think that Vilia gave the best description so I'll quote it here:

Originally Posted by vilia

Traditionally, Amcab incorporates the 3 to 7 part show. That is, entrance, veil, up tempo number, floorwork, moving through the audience for tips to med/fast rhythm, drum solo and finale (which might be a karsilama), or any combination thereof. So, to me, that would be the true definition of it rather than which combination of styles are used or how they're executed.

As for connection to the music, I have to say that says more about the dancer herself than the style she's using. Hopefully, we all strive for that, because surely that's the essence of what dance is about! At the same time, it's true that Egyptian style does include a lot more emphasis on facial expression and "acting" (for want of a better description) out the lyrics.