Thread: The BIG debate

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Hi Damariz! In Arabic, the term "raqs sharqi" means "dance of the East" - as opposed to the types of European-style dancing that was done in music halls. (Ie, as opposed to French cancan, Ziegfeld follies, etc.) When Badia Masabni started presenting theatricalized traditional "raqs baladi" (dance of the villages) in her nightclub, she needed a name to describe the new dance to differentiate it from the European material her audiences were accustomed to. So the term "raqs sharqi" arose.

In Turkey, the term is "Oryantal tansi" which also means "dance of the East".

So, you could say "Eastern dance" or "Oriental dance" and be correct with reference to both the Turkish version of our dance and the Egyptian/Lebanese versions. Most people (including me) who want to use the English name for raqs sharqi say "Oriental".

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled debate about burlesque...

The problem with that term is that the GP thinks of the Orient in terms of the Far East, so if you call Belly Dance Oriental Dance, they think you're going to come out in a kimono and white makeup and dance with fans.

Sorry, I'm a stubborn thing, ain't I? ..l;,

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The problem with that term is that the GP thinks of the Orient in terms of the Far East, so if you call Belly Dance Oriental Dance, they think you're going to come out in a kimono and white makeup and dance with fans.

Sorry, I'm a stubborn thing, ain't I?

I completely see your point. I was very resistant to the term "Oriental dance" for a long time for exactly that reason. I didn't become comfortable with it until I saw Shareen el Safy using it all over the place in Habibi Magazine and her workshops.

When I do performances in the local arts community (ie, in settings where other dancers are doing stuff like tango, salsa, modern dance, etc.), I usually ask the organizers to use the term "Egyptian dance" for my performance and then I do Egyptian style.

Originally Posted by rachelw

I want to think you're right, Dunyah. I'm just curious whether the burlesque community at-large feels there should be a distinction. I would think burlesque performers would want to see a distinction because they would want to preserve their own art form. I had an interaction recently, though, that made me question this at least in terms of my local community.

I have some friends that perform in a burlesque/fetish troupe. Some representatives of their group approached a local cafe about performing there. This cafe has hosted bellydance nights a few times a year for several years, however, their ownership is very conservative fundamentalist Christian and several employees have made it clear that they do not like the bellydance nights. I suspect they only keep it in the schedule because they make so much money off of it.

So this burlesque/fetish group approached the cafe about performing there and couldn't understand why they were rejected immediately because "they have bellydancing, so why wouldn't they have us?" I'm not sure if they used the perceived bellydancing connection in their presentation with the cafe management, but I hope they did not.

Hi Rachel,

I do hope your friends find the RIGHT venue for their performance. I do think a cafe is not the right place to perform burlesque. I wouldn't want my 9 yr. old son watching a woman taking off her clothes in a provocative nature while he's eating his chicken fingers and french fries. I also hope your friends understand that the dancers at the restaurant aren't taking their clothes off infront of children and adults, for that matter, while they are interpreting the music they are dancing to. There is a HUGE difference in that. This is a prime example of why the two should NOT be fused together on the same stage or IMO in the same building.
They are both IMO respectful arts should stay seperate from one another.

Regarding the neo-burlesque movement in general... I've seen some performances that were lots of fun, others that were just bad dancing. Good theater is good theater, and I can enjoy good theater. Of course, it should be marketed properly so that people who would be uncomfortable with it can avoid it, and presented only in appropriate venues, but assuming these things are done, I can appreciate it.

I really object to seeing people do a fusion of burlesque and belly dance for the same reasons everyone else on this thread has already stated. The public IS confused. The public DOES still ask us whether we strip, and the public DOES still think the sole origin of this dance is seducing the sultan.

Whether we like it or not, a lot of people in U.S. society (can't speak for the other countries here on bhuz) have serious issues about sexuality. We have the extremes of Puritanical right-wing Christians on one side, and the in-your-face aggressive sexuality in movies, music videos, and cable television on the other. It's as if people in our society don't know how to find a healthy, joyful middle ground. And even those who do live in a healthy, joyful middle ground are trying to keep their children away from what they feel is a toxic influence by the hiphop, movie, and cable businesses.

Many of the environments in which belly dancers want to perform are controlled by people who feel that messages of titillation and seduction are best kept in the privacy of the home. Whether it's family restaurants, nursing homes, county fairs, city festivals, the common theme is that organizers expect performances to be family-friendly, and by "family-friendly" they mean "no explicit sexual titillation or display".

I want to perform in these family-friendly environments. I want to share our dance form with these audiences. I want to offer my students the opportunity to dance there. In the 20+ years that I've been belly dancing, I've seen HUGE improvements in the public's grasp of what belly dancing is (and is not). There's still a lot of room for further awareness and education, but things have improved greatly.

I fear that the movement to fuse belly dance and burlesque threatens the progress I have seen over the last 20+ years. I don't want to see such fusions on youtube labeled "belly dance", I don't want to see them performed at belly dance events (which often do have members of the general public in the audience), and I don't want to see them on videos that are labeled "belly dance". Remember, beginning belly dance students are still members of the "general public", and they go to belly dance events, and they take their families with them. I don't want these students to see such performances in belly dance shows and drop out of classes due to believing that's the direction their belly dance classes will be taking them in. I don't want their friends and families pressuring them to drop out, forcing them to insist, "But that wasn't belly dance."

woops...weird double post thing happened

Michelle,
And you're absolutely right. This particular venue is not the right place. It's not the right atmosphere. It's the kind of place where people walk in off the street and expect to see someone playing an acoustic guitar.

Venue is everything. I guess, more than anything, I'm flabbergasted that they would think that our presence should indicate they would be appropriate there as well. Especially because the majority of the dancers in our community are very vocal about being all-ages entertainment. Do they simply think that we're an all-ages version of burlesque? Please note that I am not saying that all such performers believe this. I'm referring to this specific group of people.

I think, though, it shows that people on either side of the spectrum can be equally clueless. With some people on the ultra-conservative end, you can tell them you're not a stripper and what you're doing is not a sex show, but they'll find the one glimmer of sensuality in it and write the whole thing off because that's how they want to see you. They want to be able to go "Aha! She's swinging her hips back and forth! There you go! Hussy!" And I think with some people who are into sex shows they see a sex show in bellydance because that's what they *want* to see, but in a different way.

As for sharing the same stage, my comment would be, "It depends."

I'd be fine with a show that exhibits a diverse selection of dance forms, including ballet, tango, tap dance, modern dance, belly dance, salsa, and burlesque. In such a show, the audiences would EXPECT that each act will be a different dance style, and therefore they aren't so likely to see connections that aren't there.

However, I would object to including burlesque acts in a show that is marketed as otherwise being a belly dance show. I would object to including belly dance in a burlesque show. I would object to a show that advertises itself as being only belly dance and burlesque, with no other dance styles. In all of these cases, the audience will be led by the marketing and content of the show to believe that the two dance styles are the same thing. Even if the program/announcer state, "This one is belly dance," or, "This one is burlesque," all the audience will remember is the one who skillfully twirled the tassels on her pasties with shoulder shimmies, and they'll think she was a belly dancer.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The term Raqs Sharqi is all well and good, and it may be a more correct term for solo Oriental dance. HOWEVER, when you speak with the GP about the dance form or someone asks you what kind of dance you do, and you say Raqs Sharqi - they hear "Rocks Sharki." So do we do something involving rocks and sharks or do we do belly dance? One term may not be entirely accurate, and the other may be, but one is a simple answer, and the other will get you a quizzical expression and a "huh?" every time.

Advertise your classes, performances, and website with the tags Raqs Sharqi, leaving out all reference to belly dance. How many students, clients, or hits will you get?

Like it or not (and make NO mistake, I LIKE it), Belly Dance is the term we have, it's here to stay, and I embrace it as a traditional-style dancer. NO ONE - not fusionistas, burly girls, or Raqs Nazis, is going to take it from me.

Yeah, I know. I'm just so frustrated with all of the so-called belly dance going on that doesn't resemble anything about belly dance to me!

I also want to say that not only does fusing burly & belly dancing and having them share a stage hurt our progress towards artistic recognition, I just don't want to see them mixed together, So I wouldn't go to that show or that performance. I MIGHT go see burly just for the heck of it but I would probably get mad if bellydance was mixed in, so I might stay away just to spare myself! !

Originally Posted by zamora

another thing that separates the two, is that mid east dance/belly dance, comes from a culture/spiritual base.
my 2 cents

You know, I cut the portion of my post that spoke about this for fear I would get too many negative reactions, but honestly, it is a cultural dance. Every time we step on stage we are representing that culture and area of the world. We are giving a face to the middle east of something other than a suicide bomber.

It's a serious thing and a responsibility I take to heart. I am an American and I certainly know we're a big ol' melting pot here but seriously...even Am Cab understood (understands) that it came from that cultural background.

Burley has it's own culture, which is just as important to represent. Why water it down?

I'm headin' for the crochety old woman corner myself - meet ya there Zum!!

Along with a group I dance with, I just recently shared the stage with a burlesque dancer at an 18-and-older, GBLT-friendly show. She did straight burlesque, our group did straight bellydance. I think there are venues out there where both are appropriate, presented side-by-side-- namely adult venues. No, not that kind of "adult" necessarily, but venues where children are not allowed.
Concerning the topic of fusing the two, I honestly wouldn't have a "moral" problem with it as long as the venue was appropriate and it was labeled as such (e.g. not billed as straight-up raqs sharqi). However, I'm not sure why you would want to blend the two. I can see how a burlesque act might do a harem-girl shtick and pull it off, sure, but that would still be burlesque. And I have yet to see a burly-bellydance (emphasis on the BD) performance that didn't look either forced, awkward, or cheap.
I'm going to dissent against the majority here and argue that maybe it could be done and done well- I just haven't seen it.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The problem with that term is that the GP thinks of the Orient in terms of the Far East, so if you call Belly Dance Oriental Dance, they think you're going to come out in a kimono and white makeup and dance with fans.

Sorry, I'm a stubborn thing, ain't I? ..l;,

I have to agree with you, T-H. Sometimes I think it might be better to use a more culturally correct word for what I teach and separate it from the invented stuff, but if I have to give up the term "Belly Dance", I can probably kiss most of my class enrollments goodbye.

I guess we could just add more information. As more and more students think that the Belly Dance Classes they are signing up for are going to be Shakira-meets-Dita, we will have to call ours "Classical Egyptian Belly Dance" or "Modern Egyptian Belly Dance" or "Turkish Oryantal Belly Dance" or whatever style we specialize in, specifically.

When I was studying jazz heavily in high school and college, I do remember taking classes called "African Jazz", "Ballet Jazz", "Fosse-style Jazz", etc. so the jazz teachers were seeing enough stylistic variations of jazz that they had to state what "flavor" of jazz they were teaching in particular. Don't remember seeing "Burlesque Jazz", which is ironic because Jazz and Burlesque really have much more in common than Belly Dance and Burlesque as far as movement quality and vocabulary, and history, in my opinion. Much of the Burlesque I've seen in my life is really just much saucier, much more provocative Jazz.... Can we say "Cabaret" with Liza Minelli, anyone?

*dipping my toe in the water*

Many good points already brought up so I won't repeat.

Want to add that burley, while dance can be a big part of it, is all about conceal/reveal, theatrics, costuming, fantasy and, thus, does not have to involve dance. Many of the burley girls do not have a dance background and they excel in the art of the tease.

As a practitioner of both (one much more recently than the other), I find it is easy to separate the two. I prefer to separate the two and not see a blend.

Would love to hear the Princess's thoughts on this...

I am not sure what the point is in blending the two really?
Shaabi has elements of burlesque so what is the point? is there an aim?
I can see why burlesque artists, strippers, lap dancers etc. may want to learn belly dance moves and incorperate it into their act but not really sure whats going on when it is the other way around?
Are belly dancers just like giant hoovers who go around sucking everything up?
Its getting like a strabucks menu.. belly dance with cream, belly dance with chocolate......

Well, here's my response and I realized it is anecdotal but makes my point very clearly:

When I was a regular belly dancer at a restaurant in S.F., I show up for my performance night and a guy (not Middle Eastern) introduced himself to me as the "new manager hired by owners to oversee the dance program". Me: Okay, well, I'm Nisima, this is my regular night to dance and I do two 30 minute sets. New Mgr. "Great, but I want to talk to you about ideas I have to bring in more customers; I managed a strip club and can improve business here for clients and dancers." Me: Oh? New Mgr. "Oh yes, and the first thing is that I think belly dancers wear way too many clothes, all those skirts etc. It takes them too long to get ready so I want you to perform in just the bra and belt and do more shows; you will get more tips and there will be lots more customers, after all strippers and belly dancers do practically the same moves". Me (with nasty smile) Well, I perform in my FULL COSTUME which consists of bra, belt and skirt and do my two 30 minute sets or I do not perform at all and will leave immediately - so what's it gonna be, Mr. Manager? New Mgr. "Errrrr, um, okay, I mean the belly dance costumes are beautiful and all I was just suggesting ways to improve cash flow for everyone but if you want to perform in full costume as usual, that's fine.

The next week, "New Manager" was gone and I continued to work there, performing in full belly dance regalia, including skirt!

This was in early 90's and I think illustrates what happens when perception of belly dance/burlesque is that it is "very similar". We don't need this "fusion" and I am not even in favor of having burlesque in a show side by side with belly dance. Two different dance art forms with different "intentions".

that's hysterical and horrifying.

"Well, Mr. Manager, it does take you a few extra minutes to pull on your pants in the morning, and boxer shorts have so much extra fabric, why don't you just come to work in a thong, or better yet, a jock strap."

Originally Posted by Azhia

*dipping my toe in the water*

Would love to hear the Princess's thoughts on this...

I have Raqs and Rolls dvd and during th opening bits and piceces "the Princess" appears lon her side on the stage with one leg pointed straight. Shown from the back, You can see men's heads at approx crotch level. she was dressed for BD. I was not impressed, and do not want to see more of this sort of thing through burlesque and bellydance fusion.

and the first thing is that I think belly dancers wear way too many clothes, all those skirts etc. It takes them too long to get ready so I want you to perform in just the bra and belt and do more shows

There are. No. Words.