Thread: Where does the bellyroll & flutter come from?

Is it Egyptian derived, or Turkish? Or is it since hollywood invented the two piece? Since most oriental dance we believe was not performed in skimpy two piece costumes, but usually covered - is the belly-roll (something I love to do), flutters etc, a modern inclusion in the dance?

Excellent question!!

Aw Lauren,

When I saw that you posted a response on this thread I was SURE I could now read the answer here ..l;,

Khalida

Originally Posted by Grizzle

Is it Egyptian derived, or Turkish? Or is it since hollywood invented the two piece? Since most oriental dance we believe was not performed in skimpy two piece costumes, but usually covered

It depends on what you mean by oriental dance. *Raqs beledi* would have been traditionally done in covered costumes. *Raqs sharqi* is late 19th/early20th century in origin and in terms of theatrical performances, has been pretty much associated with two piece costumes the whole time (at least since Badia Masabni), though not exclusively, as costume trends have come and gone.

- is the belly-roll (something I love to do), flutters etc, a modern inclusion in the dance?

I have never seen an Egyptian dancer do a flutter. Occasionally they do belly roll type movements, but it usually flows right out of other movements. They never just stand there like "hey I'm rolling my belly"

Originally Posted by Khalida

Aw Lauren,

When I saw that you posted a response on this thread I was SURE I could now read the answer here ..l;,

Khalida

..l;, ..l;, ..l;, Everything I know I learned from other Bhuzzers. The cumulative knowledge here is mindboggling!!

I personally haven't seen belly rolls or flutters done by Egyptian dancers. I haven't seen them done by Turkish or Lebanese dancers, either, but I've only seen a handful of those, so I'd wait for a more definitive opinion. (Meissound is our resident Lebanese style expert, and there are several Turkish style experts around).

If I had to guess, I'd say it's a Western invention, OR something that's been added in from another culture by Westerners. But that's not a definitive answer, just an educated guess!!

I always thought is was an American Cabaret/Classic Western Nightclub style thing, mostly because the dancers I've known who do them a lot are either AmCab themselves or have taken from teachers in the AmCab tradition.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I always thought is was an American Cabaret/Classic Western Nightclub style thing, mostly because the dancers I've known who do them a lot are either AmCab themselves or have taken from teachers in the AmCab tradition.

Yeah, I've been told that the belly rolls actually came from yoga, but I don't remember now where I heard that. I was told that Egyptian dancers never stand still and roll their bellies.

I've seen Turkish dancers on YouTube doing rolls and flutters, though. But who knows if they got it from us?..l;,

I've been to numerous workshops taught by Artemis Mourat who says that Turkish Belly Dancers do belly rolls.

they were done by mid wives.the "mom" is in the center of the tent, the ground is a bit lower, there usually was a rope for her to bear down on.the mid wives were showing her what to do.
we use belly rolls/flutters w/drum solo, taxim, veil.

Great question! I have always thought that it was an American "thing"...I have seen Turkish dancers do it...but in the States it seems to be a novelty move. Standing and doing belly rolls never impresses me...actually it is funny to do when people are eating! haha! But it is gimmicky and people here seem to think that ALL belly dancers must know how to do! I roll my eyes instead! It looks a bit strange to me....

American Classic dancers got rolls and flutters from Turkish and Armenian dancers.

A lesser influence on American Classic dancers was the "stomach dance" of the Ouled Nail. This indeed is a "stand still and do various abdominal isolations in time to the music" type of dance. It's kind of like what I've seen Fahtiem, Carolena Nericcio, and Una all do, where they vary the abdominal action: first one side, then the other, then the two together, then up, then down, etc. Some dancers such as Morocco and Aisha Ali learned this in their travels and brought it back to North America. We in turn incorporated it into "belly dance" in general.

Side-to-side stomach rolls come from the yoga activity known as nauli kriya. If you've never seen a side-to-side stomach roll, watch this video demonstration of nauli kriya, in the second half: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6B5yQdvyDM"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/ame] . You'll know it when you see it! <evil grin> (By the way, this video makes you confirm you're over 18 before watching it. That's because the guy demonstrating the move pulls his pants down just far enough to let you see what his lower abs are doing. But don't worry, he keeps his dangly bits covered so it's actually less provocative than what the "adult" rating might make you think.)

As others have noted on this thread, Egyptian and Lebanese dancers don't stand still and roll their stomachs the way American Classic dancers do, and I don't think I've ever seen a dancer from either of these places flutter at all. However, I HAVE seen Egyptian dancers use a stomach roll in combination with other moves, as a layer. For example, I've seen Fifi Abdo do a stomach roll in combination with figure 8's and a shimmy all at once. And some Egyptian dancers will combine a stomach roll with the Egyptian camel. You have to watch carefully to see it.

That is so not right...where did his intestines go during that display?

Originally Posted by anala

That is so not right...where did his intestines go during that display?

Hee hee hee, I couldn't resist this excuse to post the link to that nauli kriya video! Someone else posted it to the Belly Dance Videos group on Yahoo, and I've been trying to come up with a good excuse to inflict it on bhuzzards! This thread was the perfect opportunity!

(Rubbing hands in glee...)

We now return you to your regularly schedule discussion of rolling and fluttering abs....

I have a video of an Iranian bellydancer doing flutters (at an event in Switzerland). She really stands there and points at her belly like "look, I am fluttering!".
But this just proves that SHE does them and we don't know where she got the idea from.

So it might well be that SOME dancers in the Middle East (and further away) do flutters / bellyrolls, but it might just be their personal gimmick.

MEISSOUN

Randa Kamel does an amazing flutter. I have only seen her do this in a workshop in Singapore. I never saw this in her video clips though.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I have never seen an Egyptian dancer do a flutter. Occasionally they do belly roll type movements, but it usually flows right out of other movements. They never just stand there like "hey I'm rolling my belly"

I do agree with this. I have never ever seen isolated Belly rolls (as done in American Cab) carried out by an Egyptian Dancer (not talking about the very new trends.
I have seen it done by Turkish and dancers in Lebanon, however, this could be a "reimport". Flutters I have never seen neither in Egypt, Lebonon nor with Turkish dancers.

I have seen flutters & abdominal rolls performed by Yemeni dancers (covered) to make their long jewellry shimmer/glittery dress vibrate. I don't know if it was their tradition or if they'd seen it, liked it and adopted it.

Man its a tricky one isn't it! I know that my egyptian dance teacher didnt teach rolls or flutters - she in fact never showed her belly either (and hated the likes of fifi abdou... was more of a fan of soriah hilal). I had to learn them myself. Which was kinda fun actually.

Originally Posted by Grizzle

Man its a tricky one isn't it! I know that my egyptian dance teacher didnt teach rolls or flutters - she in fact never showed her belly either (and hated the likes of fifi abdou... was more of a fan of soriah hilal).

Ah, well then IMO anything she said about X is Egyptian or Y is not Egyptian is immediatley suspect. Sorry but Hilal has a warped view on things.

Just watch the Egyptian dancers yourself and the truth will come! ..g.:

Yes, I have to say i find Hilal massively erm.. .pretentious and well, v dull!
Fifi on the other hand i think is fabulous.

I'm not that worried about where the flutters and rolls come from - just curious tos ee what was said! I thought that it might be a fairly new thing considering certainly flutters wouldn't be very visible under a loose fitting dress...

I think that belly rolls come from Indian Culture. Somebody mentioned yoga, I think there may be a connection. The first time I ever saw a belly roll was on one of the around the world shows on Russian TV that showed a group of Indian women practicing belly rolls in class. The interesting thing was, it wasn't a part of the dance, it was just a move on it's own. They just stood still, upright, and rolled their bellies. What they did was so amazing that I still remember like 15 years later.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Aisha Ali learned this in their travels and brought it back to North America. We in turn incorporated it into "belly dance" in general.

Side-to-side stomach rolls come from the yoga activity known as nauli kriya. If you've never seen a side-to-side stomach roll, watch this video demonstration of nauli kriya, in the second half: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. .

Okay...that is just scary! I understand how impressive it is that he can control his abs like that but WHO would want to?

since Hollywood invented the two-piece

Ahem. Item one: Maud Allen, a Canadian, in two-piece costume for Vision of Salome, her 1908 production. And I don't think for one second she invented it: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/raqs/...s/image002.jpg

Item two: First "Hollywood" movie shot, 1910. First Hollywood feature film, 1914. "Intolerance", featuring "Babylon" scenes, 1916.

Bedleh =/= Hollywood invention. The end.

There have been some amazing variations of the roll and flutter, everyone from Fahtiem to Fat chance belly dance, I think when done well and in moderation they show the dancer has great muscle control, it's less of a gimmick than wrapping turbans on customers heads, or some of the other restaurant 'tricks' I've seen (and I've seen some lu lu's!). Where it started is hard to say, considering dancers from the ME have done it at times as well. I do know that Arabic audiences are impressed when they see it.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Ahem. Item one: Maud Allen, a Canadian, in two-piece costume for Vision of Salome, her 1908 production. And I don't think for one second she invented it: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/raqs/...s/image002.jpg

Item two: First "Hollywood" movie shot, 1910. First Hollywood feature film, 1914. "Intolerance", featuring "Babylon" scenes, 1916.

Bedleh =/= Hollywood invention. The end.

I'm being thick - but are you saying yes or no its not true!?? lol

Originally Posted by Grizzle

I'm being thick - but are you saying yes or no its not true!?? lol

EEEErrrr - I must be thick too - - do you mean just that we usually think of the Hollywood influence as dating from the 40's , when actually it was much earlier or- well - wot!?
confused!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Ahem. Item one: Maud Allen, a Canadian, in two-piece costume for Vision of Salome, her 1908 production. And I don't think for one second she invented it: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/raqs/...s/image002.jpg

Item two: First "Hollywood" movie shot, 1910. First Hollywood feature film, 1914. "Intolerance", featuring "Babylon" scenes, 1916.

Bedleh =/= Hollywood invention. The end.

Thanks, I have been curious about the time line of this. I am not an expert, but my overall impression of everything I have heard and read about the bedlah is that the two-piece costume was associated with oriental dance before "Hollywood" had significant influence. And that "Hollywood" got this inspiration from a pre-existing image of the oriental dancer/woman (perhaps from some of the orientalist paintings and similar). Hollywood may have popularized the image, but it wouldn't have stuck if it wasn't such an effective costume for this style of dance (Badia and crew may have developed a different look if it didn't highlight the dance as well as look "glamorous"). I can agree the two-piece "belly dance" costume seems to be a "western" fantasy influence that spread to the Middle East.

I'm sorry but.. Shira.. I dont think I will ever be the same again after watching that video.....c::

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Ahem. Item one: Maud Allen, a Canadian, in two-piece costume for Vision of Salome, her 1908 production. And I don't think for one second she invented it: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/raqs/...s/image002.jpg

Item two: First "Hollywood" movie shot, 1910. First Hollywood feature film, 1914. "Intolerance", featuring "Babylon" scenes, 1916.

Bedleh =/= Hollywood invention. The end.

Hmmm...got me thinking, and I had another look at the cover of Looking for Little Egypt - although the woman in the photo on the front isn't in a bedleh as we'd recognise it now, and certainly not as ornate as Maud Allen's outfit, it is a 2 piece. The Chicago World Fair was 1892/3? I'm not sure when the photo was taken...?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

A lesser influence on American Classic dancers was the "stomach dance" of the Ouled Nail. This indeed is a "stand still and do various abdominal isolations in time to the music" type of dance. It's kind of like what I've seen Fahtiem, Carolena Nericcio, and Una all do, where they vary the abdominal action: first one side, then the other, then the two together, then up, then down, etc. Some dancers such as Morocco and Aisha Ali learned this in their travels and brought it back to North America. We in turn incorporated it into "belly dance" in general.

I was told the Stomach Dance was the origin of the belly roll, but my source was just repeating something she heard from somebody else who heard it from , etc.

Is there any video of the Ouled Nail "stomach dance" ? Or should I just look for videos by Fahtiem and Carolena ?