Thread: How do you know if you're Lebanese ?

Originally Posted by anala

Would anyone care to comment on the Lebanese style shimmy I learned from Margo Abdo O'dell 2 weeks ago. (post #29) It was quite different than any shimmy I have used before. Perhaps it was just new to me. I have used it as a strengthening exersize in class but I was afraid if I did it in public, the police would cart me off... ;-)

Amani uses this a lot. I have not seen other dancers use it, I thought it was her special thing! She throws a big head accent on top of it.

Originally Posted by anala

Would anyone care to comment on the Lebanese style shimmy I learned from Margo Abdo O'dell 2 weeks ago. (post #29) It was quite different than any shimmy I have used before. Perhaps it was just new to me. I have used it as a strengthening exersize in class but I was afraid if I did it in public, the police would cart me off... ;-)

I'll comment on it, it's one of my favorite moves!! I use it quite a bit -- but only for a short time, and only for special effects, not as a default shimmy.

I don't think it is a Lebanese-style shimmy. It's just a pelvic shimmy, and one particular Lebanese dancer -- Nadia Gamal -- had it as one of her signature moves. I've not seen other Lebanese dancers use it much.

If we're talking about the same shimmy, I use it here from about 5:18-5:24, is that the shimmy you mean? (sorry, clip is so long...just let it load & scoot it up to 5:18)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5i3TO2QgTE]YouTube - Bellydance Medley[/ame]


AS you can see, when I do it, it's sort of a 'blubber-goes-wild' shimmy. ..l;,

So far no one's carted me away for using it. .w.: Trick is it has to be small & controlled, and make sure it's a pelvic drop, not a pelvic thrust.

OMG I love that shimmy. It feeeeels so gooood!! Yummy shimmy.

BTW -- is this an older clip or do you have long hair again?

Styles of dance whatever country they are from tend to be 'trends' set by the elite few. Lebanese to me, is a cross between what we call Egyptian and Turkish. Egyptian as it is today is influenced by dance from all over the world brought from dancers all over the world doing Egyptian. Do you know what I mean? I dont think we can analyse it to much, as dancers bring in thrie own little hop skips and jumps to create their own unique style. It's the attitude that makes them Turkish or Egyptian etc. combined with a feel.... (or shoes)

is that the shimmy you mean?

Yep..that would be the one. Margo's was smaller and done for a more prolonged period of time. She also layered it like a regular shimmy...circles slides etc....

Originally Posted by aziyade

BTW -- is this an older clip or do you have long hair again?

I've always had long hair, I keep it in a box in my costume closet. ..l;, But my real hair is down to the tops of my shoulders now!!

Originally Posted by anala

is that the shimmy you mean?

Yep..that would be the one. Margo's was smaller and done for a more prolonged period of time. She also layered it like a regular shimmy...circles slides etc....

MMmmmmmm, yummy!! Yes, that was a vigorous 'big stage' version, but even my smaller version isn't delicate enough for layering. Sounds really nice!

I keep it in a box in my costume closet

My eyes...my teeth...my hair...my eyelashes...my ass....it's a wonder my husband doesnt make a pass at my nightstand! LOL

Originally Posted by anala

I keep it in a box in my costume closet

My eyes...my teeth...my hair...my eyelashes...my ass....it's a wonder my husband doesnt make a pass at my nightstand! LOL

..l;, You're killin' me, Anala....

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

It's the attitude that makes them Turkish or Egyptian etc. combined with a feel.... (or shoes)

Shoes? Did someone say shoes? Must... resist... Nordstroms. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

I think I will get told off for calling it a cross, but that is what it looks like to me. I have to confess, I am not a expert when it comes to Lebanese but I have seen plenty of clips and own one or two vids.
There is a shoe fetish in Turkey and Lebanon but Asmahan must have caught the bug too as I have seen her wearing shoes lately!

Originally Posted by shems

is it still possible to get these cocktail videos? I've seen some of that footage thanks to a local library back in Utah with a belly dancing librarian, but it's been a while, and I'm wondering if it's possible to add them to my collection.

What are these cocktail videos and where can I see or get them?

spiced

Originally Posted by spicedjellybeans

What are these cocktail videos and where can I see or get them?

spiced

I got mine from Pe-Ko Records (also known as Hollywood Music Center). If you don't see the videos on their web site, try calling and ask. There are a series of them. They all have "Cocktail" as the first word in the title. I think they're copies of shows that appeared on a Lebanese television channel.

Originally Posted by spicedjellybeans

What are these cocktail videos and where can I see or get them?

spiced

They did originate with PEKO. When I searched their site however I couldn't find them. I did see that Dahlal Internationale : Welcome! still sold cocktail # 3 which was one of my favorites.
Cocktail 3

Special Web Price: $29.99
A $29.99 value!

Featuring Samara, Nariman Aboud, Zhijel, Dina and Lilia. Includes cane and sword. Running time: 60 minutes.

I noticed that now that there is a whole new series: Belly Dance with Professional Dancers. Example:
VOS DVD1
Belly Dance with Professional Dancers Vol. 1
$29.99

Your favorite Lebanese stars all on one DVD! Featuring a 20 minute performance by Amani, a 7:19 minute performance by Hwayda Hashim, a 14 minute performance by Dany Butros, a 10:33 performance by Ranine, a 12 minute performance by Jizel and a 12:43 performance by Samara.

Now I do not have any of this series but I probably have all or most of the performances.

I suspect they copied and pasted and redid the original cocktail series. It's pretty common to take existing videos then make a compilation then you end of with several videos of the exact same performances but in a different order. So frustrating. I'll eventually order some just to prove my theory!

Originally Posted by anala

is that the shimmy you mean?

Yep..that would be the one. Margo's was smaller and done for a more prolonged period of time. She also layered it like a regular shimmy...circles slides etc....

Well now I do something similar and it's pretty much a staple for me. I dont' have any fancy name for it. To me it's just a shimmy that can go any which way, up down, around, front, back. You can do slides or circles or straight. It involves pelvic movement, shimmy and belly work. To me it's not a special moment but a staple. It can be subtle at times or real dramatic.

Originally Posted by kat

When you watch Birgul Beray -- you aren't confused one bit. Turkish style and proud of it! ..g.: Can you tell I just love watching her? Everyone should find that much joy (and fun) in their dancing.

She is amazing. Someone once described her as like a force of nature. Here's my playlist of Birgul Beray videos. Sorry for the half dozen or more itty bitty clips which should have been put together into one vid. I don't know why the poster had them chopped up that way. Annoying, but footage of her is hard to find, so I take it where I can find it. Luckily, there are some meatier vids of her, too, lasting several minutes.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

spiced

Originally Posted by latriamou

why would wearing heels affect their gracefulness? dancers of other styles: ballroom, etc wear high heels and their gracefulness amazes me

not accusing, just curious as to where the conclusion came from.

imo the difference is that a lot of them wear street heels that don't have the flexibility of a dance shoe made with the dancer's foot in mind.
i'm not saying they are innately less graceful. i just don't like the look the street shoes create. kind of a clompy stiff end to an otherwise great dancer. i think it actually limits their ability to complete the lines of the movement. i feel this way about any dancer in stiff street shoes, regardless of style or country of origin. even those cheap stiff character shoes limit the foot's movement imo.

with the exception of the slip on mule heels for melaya leff b/c that's part of the whole character.

that's the beauty of ballroom/salsa shoes. it gives the look of a high heel, but allows the foot to dance.

Originally Posted by norma

clip

I noticed that now that there is a whole new series: Belly Dance with Professional Dancers. Example:
VOS DVD1
Belly Dance with Professional Dancers Vol. 1
$29.99

Your favorite Lebanese stars all on one DVD! Featuring a 20 minute performance by Amani, a 7:19 minute performance by Hwayda Hashim, a 14 minute performance by Dany Butros, a 10:33 performance by Ranine, a 12 minute performance by Jizel and a 12:43 performance by Samara.

Now I do not have any of this series but I probably have all or most of the performances.

I suspect they copied and pasted and redid the original cocktail series. It's pretty common to take existing videos then make a compilation then you end of with several videos of the exact same performances but in a different order. So frustrating. I'll eventually order some just to prove my theory!

I don't know, I got the one with Nadia Gamal on it and the footage was unique to anything else I had in my collection (I've tried to collect everything of Nadia that I can get my hands on, I really like her) I'm trying to think if I had seen any of the other footage elsewhere as well...I'd have to double check. I didn't pay as much attention to the other dancers on the DVD.

The Nadia Gamal "The Legend" dvd is GREAT. Full concert. She does that amazing head whip back and forth, so strong and forceful, then pulls back and does small shoulder rolls with this big smile....so good!

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Are you talking about a pelvic flutter kind of shimmy? I've seen them used, but I wouldn't call them a 'default' Lebanese shimmy. In my observations, the Lebanese tend to use the bent-knee shimmy as a default (in contrast to the Egyptian style, "straight-leg" shimmy). The resulting action is a very hippy shimmy. It's also very tiring.

I agree.

The bent knee shimmy produces a more "piston" up and down movement to the hips which has led to it being called the piston shimmy or Lebanese shimmy where I'm from. Some theorize that extremly high heels have played a role in this evolution.

And the pelvic flutter, small back and forth shimmy is often used more as an accent shimmy for a fast 4 or 8 count drum bit than a default shimmy. Hawayda Haschim is a good example of this. This shimmy is often used on alternating sides which looks amazing when done well. So instead of the pelvis tilting front to back only, you get more of a "left-down-up-right-down-up" affect.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

Styles of dance whatever country they are from tend to be 'trends' set by the elite few. Lebanese to me, is a cross between what we call Egyptian and Turkish. Egyptian as it is today is influenced by dance from all over the world brought from dancers all over the world doing Egyptian. Do you know what I mean? I dont think we can analyse it to much, as dancers bring in thrie own little hop skips and jumps to create their own unique style. It's the attitude that makes them Turkish or Egyptian etc. combined with a feel.... (or shoes)

This is what I have come up with also. Lebanon was a junction between north, south, and east, west, for quite some time. People gathering there from all over, becoming a crossroads mixture. Thinking of it geographically too, I see it as a cross between Egyptian and Turkish, and not necessarily "modern" Egyptian/Turkish.

However, it is really nice to see this thread, with all the replies and videos, since it covers a style that, in my opinion, has been discarded in favor of "modern Egyptian". There are all sorts of ways to dance, many legitimate styles, and I am glad to see this talked about here.

I am tired of hearing that tiny moves and ALL moves should "come from the inside", since yes, sometimes they don't and that is ok too. End of rant from a dancer who learned from a Lebanese woman and has been wondering what the heck happened the last few yrs to good old hip flinging dance.

Hello,

There's so much confusion about what Lebanese dance is, and that is perfectly understandable given that most footage of Lebanese style dancers is either jazzy, or just plain vulgar. Lebanese dance is not a cross between Turkish and Egyptian, and one mustn't make that assumption based on only geography because it is just wrong.

Context is crucial in understanding any dance form, and you should keep in mind that Lebanon is tiny, and traditionally Cairo has been the centre of the Arab world as far as entertainment goes. A lot of Levantine talent was absorbed by the Egyptian movie and entertainment industry - it's so important to keep in mind that Badia Masabni, a pivotal figure in oriental dance was Lebanese, and her impact on oriental dance as a performance art should not be underestimated. Also, there are unfortunate social trends in Lebanon (mostly among Christians) more so among younger Lebanese that fervently deny their Arabism. In fact some get outright offended when you suggest that the Lebanese are Arabs - some will retort that they are in fact 'Phoenicians' (I'll take that claim seriously when they start speaking Phoenician and erecting temples to Baal) this has been extremely detrimental to our traditional arts. There are still a few surviving traditionalists like myself (and Ziyad Sahhab - the Sahhab's are a very respected family whose contributions to Arabic arts are considerable. Salim Sahhab headed the Conservatoire here before moving to Cairo to head the Opera there) We're in the minority though, and you won't learn about us by watching melody hits or some sleazy gameshow tape from LBC (that station that notoriously caters to the lowest common denominator) People are also confused about my style of dancing because it looks closer to Egyptian than Lebanese - this is because I'm a third generation dancer, and am a hangover from the 50's. My grandmother was performing at a time before Lebanese dance went off on a tangent.


I'll be discussing some of these issues (regarding the state of Lebanese arts after the civil war) at an upcoming lecture at LAU LEBANESE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY - I don't know if anyone here is hanging around Beirut at the moment! Ziyad Sahhab and I will also be beginning performances in early April at Walimet Wardeh in Beirut. I hope the situation will be calm and encouraging for whomever would like to visit!

Next time I log in, it'll be as Suha Deeb; I've just realised that I can't change my name on this account (makes sense!) Suha Deeb is my stage name and my grandmother's last name.

Regards,

Suha Deeb

Originally Posted by shems

Seriously though, if you see some dance vocabulary you like from Lebanese dancers you should go ahead and learn it and use it. I know we like to name our stylistic influences, but at the end of the day it's just you dancing.

Bravo Shems for that!! Sometimes I feel there many times people pidgeon hole themselves and there is so much beauty in the diversity. After all, variety IS the spice of life.

Thalia

Originally Posted by shems

is it still possible to get these cocktail videos? I've seen some of that footage thanks to a local library back in Utah with a belly dancing librarian, but it's been a while, and I'm wondering if it's possible to add them to my collection.

Shems,

I have several that I purchased from Lotus, they are in VHS. You are welcome to come and watch them sometime. And yes, they came from Hollywood video. I believe there is a number on the cases.

Thalia

Originally Posted by Suha_Azar

Hello,

There's so much confusion about what Lebanese dance is, and that is perfectly understandable given that most footage of Lebanese style dancers is either jazzy, or just plain vulgar. Lebanese dance is not a cross between Turkish and Egyptian, and one mustn't make that assumption based on only geography because it is just wrong.

Context is crucial in understanding any dance form, and you should keep in mind that Lebanon is tiny, and traditionally Cairo has been the centre of the Arab world as far as entertainment goes. A lot of Levantine talent was absorbed by the Egyptian movie and entertainment industry - it's so important to keep in mind that Badia Masabni, a pivotal figure in oriental dance was Lebanese, and her impact on oriental dance as a performance art should not be underestimated. Also, there are unfortunate social trends in Lebanon (mostly among Christians) more so among younger Lebanese that fervently deny their Arabism. In fact some get outright offended when you suggest that the Lebanese are Arabs - some will retort that they are in fact 'Phoenicians' (I'll take that claim seriously when they start speaking Phoenician and erecting temples to Baal) this has been extremely detrimental to our traditional arts. There are still a few surviving traditionalists like myself (and Ziyad Sahhab - the Sahhab's are a very respected family whose contributions to Arabic arts are considerable. Salim Sahhab headed the Conservatoire here before moving to Cairo to head the Opera there) We're in the minority though, and you won't learn about us by watching melody hits or some sleazy gameshow tape from LBC (that station that notoriously caters to the lowest common denominator) People are also confused about my style of dancing because it looks closer to Egyptian than Lebanese - this is because I'm a third generation dancer, and am a hangover from the 50's. My grandmother was performing at a time before Lebanese dance went off on a tangent.


I'll be discussing some of these issues (regarding the state of Lebanese arts after the civil war) at an upcoming lecture at LAU LEBANESE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY - I don't know if anyone here is hanging around Beirut at the moment! Ziyad Sahhab and I will also be beginning performances in early April at Walimet Wardeh in Beirut. I hope the situation will be calm and encouraging for whomever would like to visit!

Next time I log in, it'll be as Suha Deeb; I've just realised that I can't change my name on this account (makes sense!) Suha Deeb is my stage name and my grandmother's last name.

Regards,

Suha Deeb

Hi Suha, good to see you here!

When will you please come back to D.C. and teach? Your workshop was not only a great dance workshop, but the cultural and historical information you provided was an unbelievable bonus. You are a breath of fresh air.

Thalia

Hi Thalia,

Thanks! I might be in the US this summer for a short holiday, but I doubt I can stay long - I have so much going on here in Beirut that I don't know how (or if) I can get away just yet. You are very welcome to visit me here, of course!

Thanks Suha! What you've said makes sense. I hope to catch you in a workshop soon!

Oh, BTW-- I'm the OP. Just exploring the idea of NOT using Aziyade as a stage name.

some will retort that they are in fact 'Phoenicians' (I'll take that claim seriously when they start speaking Phoenician and erecting temples to Baal

It is so funny to see this here, now, because I was talking to a man who is of Lebanese Maronite descent just this weekend and he informed me that Maronites are not Arabs, they're Phoenicians... which was a new one on me. Very interesting!

Originally Posted by meena_oasis

I agree.

The bent knee shimmy produces a more "piston" up and down movement to the hips which has led to it being called the piston shimmy or Lebanese shimmy where I'm from. Some theorize that extremly high heels have played a role in this evolution.

I just find the whole Egyptian v. Lebanese shimmy thing confusing because not every Egyptian dancer does a "straight leg" shimmy. Bent knee shimmies can come from barefoot/non high-heeled Egyptian dancers, too. The straight-leg shimmy seems to be a new-fangled thing popularized by Raqia Hassan, and it hasn't caught on with all the dancers in Egypt. However, I guess we all have different labels for different things ..g.:

Originally Posted by latriamou

why would wearing heels affect their gracefulness? dancers of other styles: ballroom, etc wear high heels and their gracefulness amazes me

not accusing, just curious as to where the conclusion came from.

I'll see if I can explain. It may simply depend on your style of dancing. I dance barefoot and I'm mostly traditional raks sharqi with a heavy influence in Lebanese and Greek music. Occasionally I'm forced to wear shoes because of the flooring but for the most part I dance barefoot. For the most part I'm on the balls of my feet but often I am flat foot as well. However I use a lot of foot work in my movements. A lot of subtle weight changes. For instance, when I do a side to side I start out with my foot flat on the floor, then raise my heel, bring the knee in and my foot ends up literally standing on the inside edge. I can't do that move in that manner in heels. It's impossible.

Some moves are much easier to accomplish in heels but I find the moves are stiff and awkward because manipulating the feet and having the ability to push into the ground really aids in smooth flowing movements.

When I do wear heels I end up dancing with the heels off the ground most of the time.

Have you ever noticed how some Egyptian style dancers will come out in heels but the moment they get down to business they kick them off?

To tell you the truth though, in my day it was all belly dancing. The only "style" difference was the music. The exception was we did distinguish between the rest of the US and California. California style is what is now termed as American Caberet.

All these styles are a relatively new phenomena. I'm not an historian but I've been in the business since the 1980's. I don't think I heard of the phrase "Lebanese style" until sometime in the 90's. The best "Lebanese" dancers to me, danced Egyptian style, for instance, Amani in her very early days. However Amani brought other influences to her dance which took it away from traditional raks sharqi. Which I think is key in becoming a star. So many of the greats became great because they brought something of their own. (New topic!)

And yes, in her younger days she reminds me of an older Nadia Gamal.
Also in many of these videos, such as Al bab Shabab, you aren't seeing trained good dancers (except for a few). But a newbie dancer in the US picks up an authentic video from overseas and thinks oh, that's Lebanese style, translate -simply bad dancing if you're watching the wrong video. And in fact in many of those "Lebanese" videos the dancers aren't even Middle Eastern. Some are Russian, some are American. In many of the newer videos I've seen, they are simply aping American Caberet.

Sorry, didn't mean to talk about more than the shoes!