Thread: Lebanese is NOT a cross between Turkish and Egyptian

Madeline, of course I remember you. Welcome to the forum! Yalla - checking your message.

Suha,

When did belly dance come about in Lebanon?

Was it brought in by another culture, like Romani people or Gypsies?

what distinguishes traditional Lebanese dance from other styles?

and what was the traditional costume like?


Thanks so much I love this thread!

Originally Posted by bluepollen

Suha,

When did belly dance come about in Lebanon?

Was it brought in by another culture, like Romani people or Gypsies?

what distinguishes traditional Lebanese dance from other styles?

and what was the traditional costume like?


Thanks so much I love this thread!

Ahhh, I see you made it over here from Tribe. Welcome.
Suha is the best source of knowledge for the history of Lebanese dance and Lebanese style.
I also recommend however taking classes locally (I mentioned Lotus Niraja on tribe). Regular classes will help so much in understanding more fully how movements are done- reading online and watching little youtubes really aren't enough to do justice to this beautiful art form. ..g.:

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

Madeline, of course I remember you. Welcome to the forum! Yalla - checking your message.

Hi Suha!

Oh, I could ask you a gazillion questions about Lebanese dance, but I don’t want to pester you too much, so I’ll try to limit myself to just a few…

-Are hip movements accented in any particular way? I’ve heard that hips are always downwards in Egyptian dance, but upwards in Turkish and Lebanese.

-Does the upper body move at all in undulations, or should only the lower body move?

-Is there a particular way zhagareets are done? I’ve heard in some music what sounded to me like a side-to-side tongue movement rather than up and down.

-Does that “butt bounce” move have any basis in traditional Lebanese dance?

Thank you so much!

Madeline

P.S. Will you be teaching workshops in the US anytime soon? I’d love to learn from you in person. If not, you really should release your own DVD series!

Originally Posted by bluepollen

Suha,

When did belly dance come about in Lebanon?

Was it brought in by another culture, like Romani people or Gypsies?

what distinguishes traditional Lebanese dance from other styles?

and what was the traditional costume like?


Thanks so much I love this thread!

Are you researching an article?

No I am just curious and people always assume i know about all the history of bellydance since i dance here and there, but i dont! I also want to do a small presentation on lebanese belly dance for a school learning about lebanese culture, are there any good resources i can refer to?

Originally Posted by Madeline

Hi Suha!

Oh, I could ask you a gazillion questions about Lebanese dance, but I don’t want to pester you too much, so I’ll try to limit myself to just a few…

-Are hip movements accented in any particular way? I’ve heard that hips are always downwards in Egyptian dance, but upwards in Turkish and Lebanese.

-Does the upper body move at all in undulations, or should only the lower body move?

-Is there a particular way zhagareets are done? I’ve heard in some music what sounded to me like a side-to-side tongue movement rather than up and down.

-Does that “butt bounce” move have any basis in traditional Lebanese dance?

Thank you so much!

Madeline

P.S. Will you be teaching workshops in the US anytime soon? I’d love to learn from you in person. If not, you really should release your own DVD series!

Hi Madeline,

I'm going to answer from a traditional perspective regarding movements - in Arabic dance hips can go up or down. As for undulations, the upper body shouldn't be involved in the sense that the neck and shoulders come forward to 'start off' the movement. I know that some dancers start the movement there to generate enough impulse to make it look bigger, but from a traditional standpoint; that's 'cheating'! You really only should use your muscles and not your spine to get the undulation effect. It's much harder that way, but that's how it's done in authentic oriental (both Lebanese and Egyptian) dance. How much you want to apply those rules depends on what style you want to represent. Naima Akef does great examples of articulate undulation in the clip for 'Tamra Henna' as does Kawakib in 'Safar Barlek' - her upper body remains poised while she manipulates her tummy. As for zaghareet - I don't think ululations are that technical!

And the ''butt bounce'' ...well that's definitely a 'cheeky' innovation and isn't at all derived from traditional Lebanese dance!

Originally Posted by bluepollen

I also want to do a small presentation on lebanese belly dance

Hi Bluepollen,

Those are big questions you asked; each question warrants an essay in response and it seems as though you want me to do your homework for you. You shouldn't be doing presentations before you are ready, and you shouldn't be ashamed to tell people you are still learning, no matter what they assume. Meanwhile, you could follow Samira's advice and take classes while broadening your knowledge through more research. There are no short-cuts to expertise!

Regards,

Suha

Suha, another question has come to mind. I remember seeing somewhere (maybe Amani's web site?) a Lebanese dancer asserting that belly dance dates back to the time of the Phoenicians.

Is that a widely-held view among Lebanese dancers, or is that an example of just one dancer putting forward her personal theory?

I believe the theory is plausible, but I'm just wondering how widely believed it is. Also, are you aware of any research anyone has done to substantiate it?

Hi Shira,

There is nothing to substantiate such a claim. If one were to make such a claim in any seriousness, then the definition of 'belly dance' must be so broad as to include any kind of dance involving 'earthy' and 'primal' movements to whatever music. And if we are going to start with such a broad, broad definition then 'belly dance' must have been the root of lots of different dances in lots of different countries at lots of different times to lots of different music! According to that logic, then all movement that is not modern and Western can be called 'belly dance.'

Middle-Eastern Raqs Sharqi is a physical manifestation of rhythms and maqams unique to specific eastern cultures. At the beginning of my last lecture at LAU, I asked the students - could the waltz have come out of Cuba, and the merengue out of Vienna? They laughed at such an idea, but before going into more detail I just wanted to remind them that there are concrete factors to keep in mind, which is that dance styles pertain to certain cultures, to certain periods of time and to certain music. Change any of those factors and the dance style changes also. Rock 'became' disco when musicians decided to use the kick-drum for every beat, instead of every other beat. The throbbing, pulsating sound of bass percussion inspired a new dance form. That seemingly 'minor' change not only spawned a new sound, but a whole new approach to movement.

ps. Shira, I'm going off to dinner now but will be back later this evening.

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

There is nothing to substantiate such a claim. If one were to make such a claim in any seriousness, then the definition of 'belly dance' must be so broad as to include any kind of dance involving 'earthy' and 'primal' movements to whatever music. And if we are going to start with such a broad, broad definition then 'belly dance' must have been the root of lots of different dances in lots of different countries at lots of different times to lots of different music! According to that logic, then all movement that is not modern and Western can be called 'belly dance.'

Suha, thanks so much for your response! I'm always suspicious of sweeping statements about the origin of raqs sharqi such as the one I was referring to. I think it's fine for people to have theories, but not so fine when they state their theories as if they were established fact. Still, I thought it would be interesting to ask whether that point of view was just one person's wish-tory or whether there actually was some tantalizing historical documentation describing a certain type of movement or illustrating a possible "dancer" in a posture that might look like a hip-oriented dance move in progress.

You're completely right, that before we start debating the origins of "belly dancing", we need to define it. Certainly, "raqs sharqi" as we know it today has 20th-century origins in which a pre-existing traditional dance form was repackaged and modified to add some theatrical elements for presentation in front of an audience of comparatively wealthy men whose tastes were influenced by the European entertainment trends of their time. However, it's more difficult to discuss the origins of that pre-existing traditional dance from which raqs sharqi was created.

Let's face it, we have yet to find a diary in which someone wrote, "Today I invented a way of moving my body which I think I will call the hip drop. The muscles I used to do it were ___ and the thing I did with them was ___. The reason I did it was because ___. I think I will invent an entire dance that uses not only that but also some other moves that look good with it. By the way, in case you're reading this long after I'm dead, my name is ___ and the place where I live is ___."

Shira, that 'last will and testament of an ancient belly dancer' cracked me up!

If we're going to take sweeping statements like that as fact, we might as well call Mel Brooks' 'History Of The World' a documentary!

Do you remember this hilarious scene?

'Let us have Caldonia perform the highly erotic temple dance in praise of Eros!'

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPYmyhotrKs]YouTube - Mel Brooks: History Of The World Pt.1[/ame]



I don't know how many times I've watched that movie but it never fails to make me laugh.

Hi, Suha. I'm glad to hear you're doing ok ..g.: I was anxious to hear from you, but I guess it's like the old adage: "The servant waits while the master baits." Let me know if you want to stop by for a treasure bath, and remember: Hail Cesar!

Hahaha! When are you going to come to Lebanon for an internship in highly erotic temple dancing?

I'll come. But only if I can hold a jug on my head while I dance. As temple priestesess were wont to do.

Regards
Priscilla

That's a pity, because I have a stand up philosophy internship coming up this summer...the temple dancing will just have to wait!

The best thread I've read in ages. Thanks so much to all the contributors, particularly SuhaDeeb. Brilliant.

I just ordered a Nadia Gamal workshop video but I assume this will have been made when her style became less Lebanese in flavour? Someone may know either way.

And I see Jillina has a Lebanese choreography DVD out. Anyone seen it / used it / have any comments?

Thanks in advance,
Kathy xx

Great thread! I just moved to Canada after living in Turkey for almost a decade and started work dancing in a Lebanese restaurant so I need this info. It also reminded me of a useful tidbit for anyone dancing for a Turkish audience: I have seen a lot of very good dancers do a big hip circle in the middle of a "Turkish" style dance. This is NOT acceptable in Turkey. Sticking your bum out is any way is just too suggestive and also a pose of submission (something a belly dancer should never be, we're in control!).

Hi Suha!

Thanks so much for answering my questions!

Madeline

Jillina's Lebanese Pop choreography (response to KathyC) - as far as what I've read, it refers to the fact that the song is "Lebanese Pop". As far as I can tell from watching it, the style is pure Jillina! It's fun however, my favorite DVD of her three new choreographies.