Thread: Lebanese is NOT a cross between Turkish and Egyptian

Marhaba,

I see people repeating 'Lebanese is a cross between Turkish and Egyptian' as if there were any basis for it other than Lebanon being geographically between Egypt and Turkey (and possibly because the dancing itself looks 'bigger' than the movements of Egyptian dancers so therefore-it-must-be-Turkish...which is flawed logic, to say the least!)


Egyptian and Lebanese style dance were originally very close relatives - in fact it was characteristics of the two that shaped the look of Golden Age style dance. The two both were about fluid, yet detailed, abdominal movements, give or take some hand gestures and snaky arms here or there. Both Egyptian and Lebanese style dance have diverged away from the earlier style of raqs sharqi, both incorporating Western stylings (in Egypt, ballet, in Lebanon *Jazz*) so much so that there's a good dose of the West in both modern Egyptian and Lebanese raqs sharqi, although the end result is a different aesthetic. Modern Lebanese dancers have experimented with a lot of daring and suggestive movement, but then, so have a lot of modern Egyptian dancers (I know that my grandmother and other dancers from her time would have been shocked to see dancers bending over and waggling their bottoms in what is an overtly sexual movement but in the West is called a 'deep' hip circle!) Lebanese dance has also moved further away from its roots than Egyptian dance (I spoke about the Lebanese rejection of Arabism in another thread) In Egypt, there is still more respect for musical and artistic tradition than in Lebanon, where anything that looks too Arab is considered outdated and (unfortunately) inferior, and hence there has been better preservation of the arts in Egypt (although they are not faring as well they used to in the face of mass production and hawking of cheap sexuality) Egyptian audiences are also a lot more appreciative and receptive to traditional artists and what they have to offer.



Regards,

Suha

Thank you! This helps explain a lot of my confusion as to "new" trends in Lebanese dance. :)

That's very well-stated, not to mention very interesting. I don't know much about Lebanese style, and your explanation of the nuanced differences in Western styling in Lebanese vs. Egyptian raqs sharqi (i.e. jazz vs. ballet) helped me to understand much more. Shukran for posting that!

You're welcome, ladies. I'll gladly answer in more detail should anyone want more information.

Yes, if Lebanese style was a cross between Turkish and Egyptian, I guess Lebanese dancers would have had to gone to Turkey and Egypt first to learn those styles

I think some people also get the impression because of the dancers in Turkey and Lebanon wear high heels but the Lebanese often perform to Egyptian music (I don't know how many dancers I have seen performing to Set El Hosn!).
Plus sources about Lebanese style are so limited. Our resident Lebanese dance teacher only started Raqs Sharqi after she moved to New York and accidentially stepped into a class with Bobby Farrah...

MEISSOUN

Suha, thanks so much for your explanation! I appreciate the time you took to post it!

Could you answer a couple of questions I have about Lebanese dance?

1. Can you tell us a bit about the use of the cane as a prop in Lebanese dance? Is this related to a folk tradition of dancing with a cane, or did Lebanese dancers draw inspiration from the Egyptian use of the cane as a dance prop and re-interpret it in a Lebanese way? What kind of music is this typically used with - debke or something else?

2. Are debke steps ever incorporated into raqs sharqi? In Egypt, some raqs sharqi music has "breaks" with Saidi drumming and mizmar (or rebaba) and when it does, the dancer will sometimes insert a few Saidi step-lifts or hops to "acknowledge" the music - does Lebanese music for raqs sharqi do something similar only using debke? Or, are there other instances in which a Lebanese dancer would incorporate debke footwork into an Oriental performance, or is that something that Lebanese dancers simply don't do?

3. In Egypt, a dance concert frequently involves 3-4 costume changes over the course of the performance, and includes some folkloric tableaux as well as Oriental. Do Lebanese dance concerts do the same?

4. Have Caracalla (or other folk troupes) had much influence on Lebanese raqs sharqi? (I can see a lot of Reda Troupe influence in some big-name Egyptian raqs sharqi dancers such as Aida Nour, and I'm curious whether Caracalla (or other folks troupes) have had a similar influence in Lebanon.

Hi Shira,

Good questions!

1. Regarding cane; as I'm sure you already know, props used in raqs sharqi often draw from folklore, which often draws from real life! The cane would have been part of any Lebanese gentleman's wardrobe - it wasn't just for the elderly, it was a fashion statement (as are worry beads, which you sometimes see dabke dancers twirling) Its incorporation into folkdance stems from it being a common fashion accessory and not from the observation of Egyptian dance. Lebanese folkdance also incorporates sword (not in the way that I've seen American dancers use it) Many a Lebanese zaffeh includes a 'Seif wa Ters' routine (sword and shield) or just a male soloist really showing off with a sword by himself in a display of machismo. Some have observed Levantine folkdancing that incorporates a machine gun and commented on its strangeness, but if you think about it, its just a natural progression from the same premise!

2. Yes, you can incorporate debke steps into raqs sharqi for the same scenario you described. I incorporate steps derived from debke often for cane routine. I wouldn't do debke steps in a bra and belt badleh because I think it looks incongruous, but that's a matter of my personal taste. I think debke looks best performed in a sherwal (pantaloons) or jelabiyeh. Debke is very feisty and you want to be comfortable if your movements involve some leaping about!

3. Yes, a dance concert traditionally involves costume changes and a nod to folkdance.

4. Regarding Caracalla, I once read a review in the London 'Financial Times' where the critic described their show as 'non-art' - I thought that was a good summary! Caracalla isn't quite a folk troupe; they call themselves 'Eastern Dance Theatre' - at least that's what they were calling themselves last time I checked. As for their influence on Lebanese raqs sharqi, I would say that it's neither here nor there!

I have just been to a Lebanese workshop and this all reiforced the facts I learned. Happy to find out that others are also interested, thx god! I made a nice choreo at a ws with the famous European Mona Dolores who was the first-ever belly dancer in my country and perhaps has the most knowledge of all, has danced in middle east and Eu as well. she is half syrian. so she is an authentic source in Hungary:)

*Raises hand*

I have a question. I had a teacher who introduced me to cane and said that we dancers shouldn't balance a cane on our head. She has a Lebanese husband who told her that the Arabs don't like when dancers balance a cane on their heads because it looks like a horse and pony show/circus act.

I was wondering if you heard this or something like this?

Hi Akasha,

Sometimes I wonder why, when it comes to oriental dance, nationality on its own is seen as a qualification. People will often cite the opinion of their Egyptian co-worker, or Lebanese waiter, or Turkish neighbour (you get the idea) as 'proof' of some claim regarding the dance form. Obviously he was speaking out of personal taste, which is fair enough - but Lebanese cane dancing involves all kinds of showing off, and balancing is just one way of doing that. On the whole though, the oriental approach to props is different to what I've seen in AmCab, and I can see how an Arab audience member might be baffled at some balancing acts that may be seen as a disruption of the dancing, rather than a bit of seasoning.

Regards,

Suha

Thanks Suha. When I wrote in the other thread that I consider Lebanese to be between Egyptian and Turkish, I did not mean it was necessarily a cross between those 2, but incorporating some of each, as each of the others also incorporate some of it. Sort of like considering 5 to be between 1 and 10, but not just a cross of them.

Are you saying Lebanese used to be more like Egyptian used to be?

People travel and mix up different types of dance, leaving me to wonder if there is any "pure" pick-a-designation type raqs.

You write "Sometimes I wonder why, when it comes to oriental dance, nationality on its own is seen as a qualification. " Having been taught by a Lebanese woman, who grew up in Lebanon, and danced there, I have to take her nationality as a qualification. As you are asking us to do with you. I think you are meaning in a broader sense though, nationality should not imply knowledge of the dance, whether Lebanese or USAnian co-worker (having proof of Lebanese or USAnian dance).

I take this to more of an extreme, wondering why the political border of a country is seen as a "style" of dance, when people historically and today travel, styles mix, so forth. I also have to ask which chronological time someone is referring to when they talk about a "style" since styles also change over time.

Rambling a bit, hope it makes some sense.

Suha, thanks so much for all the info you've posted! I look forward to hearing more.

Latifa

Dear Suha,

Great information about Lebanese style dancing. Tks so much. I posted a thread in another forum about similiar subject matter. My questions to you

1. Are there any movements specific to Lebanese Raqs Sharqi?

2. How do Lebanese dancers interpret the music compared to egyptian dancers?

My sincere thanks to you in advance.

Janaki

[ot]

Yay! Suha's back!

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Hi Suha:

First thank you for sharing your wealth of information for us. I have a few questions also:

1. Where/how can those of us who can't come to you see some good Golden Age or modern Lebanese dancing? Is there any videography available to buy? Most of us only have access to Amani, Nadia Gamal, Hwayda Hachem, etc. Who should we be watching to learn what good Lebanese oriental dance is?

2. Random question: Is any of Marcel Khalife's music appropriate for oriental dance? I love what I've heard, and I know some of it is not, but he has a huge discography that I haven't explored.

3. Ya Ain Mouleytan is very popular as music for belly dancing. I know it's really a debke song, so is this inappropriate?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sedonia

thank you Suha. Great information

Originally Posted by Taj

[ot]

Yay! Suha's back!

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*skips around scattering rose petals for Suha to walk upon*

Suha,
Thank you for raising so many interesting points.:thumbs_up:

Originally Posted by Lauren_

*skips around scattering rose petals for Suha to walk upon*

..l;, ..l;,

Wow, wonderful points! This info is absolutely refreshing. I did hear someone awhile back ago (not on bhuz, in my personal click) say the same thing you addressed in this forum. I firmly believe that a culture's style of dancing is their own, and should not be "criss-crossed" between other cultures. Obviously, there are numerous similarities, but the slight (or major, depending) differences make it unique.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!

Welcome back, Suha, and thank you for posting!

Originally Posted by ssipes

Hi Suha:

First thank you for sharing your wealth of information for us. I have a few questions also:

1. Where/how can those of us who can't come to you see some good Golden Age or modern Lebanese dancing? Is there any videography available to buy? Most of us only have access to Amani, Nadia Gamal, Hwayda Hachem, etc. Who should we be watching to learn what good Lebanese oriental dance is?

<snip>

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sedonia

Hi, Sedonia:

I am an adamant supporter of the Golden Age of Egyptian Dance. If you go on my website at Sausan Academy: Store, you'll find a lot of DVDs with the dancers/dancing you are looking for.

Hope to see you there.

-Sausan

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

Egyptian and Lebanese style dance were originally very close relatives - in fact it was characteristics of the two that shaped the look of Golden Age style dance.

That's not surprise since Badia Masabni was Lebanese.

It's equivelent to us all speaking the same language, but with different accents due to where we live, Boston accent vs. Alabama, London vs. Australia. All English, but doesn't sound the same.

Our dance vocabulary is basically the same, it's just that unique execution that each region puts on the movement that makes it unique to that area. Also, I've found the better the dancers, the more similarities you will see rather than differences. You really have to look closely to distinguish between styles, they aren't always blaring. Especially since Egyptian music is widely used by dancers in every country. They are kind of the Hollywood of the ME, so seeing a Turkish or Lebanese dancer perform to an Egyptian song is not uncommon, I think many dancers watching video's would think it must be an Egyptian that she's watching due to the music.

Ahlan wa Sahlan habuba !!!!!!!!!
Miss Suha Deeb is back ..g.:

Maria Aya

Originally Posted by sausan

Hi, Sedonia:

I am an adamant supporter of the Golden Age of Egyptian Dance. If you go on my website at Sausan Academy: Store, you'll find a lot of DVDs with the dancers/dancing you are looking for.

Hope to see you there.

-Sausan

Hi Sausan:

I was asking Suha about what was going on in parallel in Lebanon during the golden age. I have quite a bit of videography about that era in Egypt, but thanks for reminding me to check out your videos.

Sedonia

Suha, here's a new question! In Egypt, the dance style of the Ghawazee is viewed as the foundation for modern-day Oriental. Do Lebanese dancers have a corresponding view of Nawari? Is Nawari dance still recognized as a folk form in its own right?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Suha, here's a new question! In Egypt, the dance style of the Ghawazee is viewed as the foundation for modern-day Oriental.

I don't want to thread-jack, but I have never heard this about Egyptian oriental dance. Rather, everything I have learned has indicated that the solo women's baladi style is the root of modern oriental. It certainly resembles oriental dance more than Ghawazee, which to me looks more like it served as the primary foundation for American Tribal Style.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Suha, here's a new question! In Egypt, the dance style of the Ghawazee is viewed as the foundation for modern-day Oriental. Do Lebanese dancers have a corresponding view of Nawari? Is Nawari dance still recognized as a folk form in its own right?

Actually, several Egyptian dancers I know would disagree. One prominent instructor says that the Ghawazee are an American invention, and they're just Egyptian dancers like any others, nothing special. This person points to the word "ghaziyah" -- the singular of "ghawazee" -- and says, "It just means dancer."

I don't agree with this viewpoint, but it exists.

In Egypt, there is still more respect for musical and artistic tradition than in Lebanon, where anything that looks too Arab is considered outdated and (unfortunately) inferior, and hence there has been better preservation of the arts in Egypt (although they are not faring as well they used to in the face of mass production and hawking of cheap sexuality) Egyptian audiences are also a lot more appreciative and receptive to traditional artists and what they have to offer.

That is so true and explains why the quality of entertainment in the Lebanese clubs has gone down drastically in my area. Now anything new and different is in vogue. Good artistry, technique and professionalism is not.