Thread: EGYPT, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! by Mohamed Shahin

EGYPT, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT

by Mohamed Shahin

Dear friends and bellydance enthusiasts from around the world, I’m writing this just to share my thoughts with you, and to take your opinions.


Some foreign dancers who are working and living in Cairo are writing and posting very negative things about Egypt, Egyptians, and the dance business in Egypt. They are trying to make Egypt look like a horrible place to dance and to live in, always mentioning about how dirty Cairo is and how nasty Egyptian people are. I understand that everyone speaks from personal experiences in life, and we develop our opinion based on that experience. But if someone chooses to live in a (foreign) country, work in it, and earn money from it, then there needs to be a VERY good reason to criticize it. I wonder what that reason may be? I think it is fair to say: If You Don't Like The Country, LEAVE IT!" We all know that every country has its problems and flaws, NO country is perfect. If anyone knows of a perfect place, let me know and maybe I will move there. Egypt is a country where its people are struggling to make ends meet. We just came out of a dictatorship, and we are still in a major transition to make a better place for us. Do we really need someone to trash us and talk nasty about who we are all over the internet?

In addition, these foreign dancers are trying to make the belly dance business look very dirty. They are saying that for dancers to be able to get a contract to dance in boats or hotels you don’t have to be a good dance or you don’t have to have talent, but you have to go out with the mangers and to be his girlfriend. Does this mean these dancers who are saying that did exactly the same to be able to dance in Cairo? Did they have to become the manager’s private girl so they can get the job? Should we discredit all the accomplishments of these talented girls? Let me just say, this is NOT the reality. Many dancers live in Egypt and work in Egypt and they don’t have to sleep with anyone to get work. They are professional, talented dancers who’s dance can speak for itself. I’m sure in some cases it happens just like women all over the world in any profession sleep with the boss to get a job or the promotion. We cannot generalize something about Egypt, or any single country or profession, because of this.

Again, I still wonder why these dancers feel that they should share that with the whole world......

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Please leave your comment I would love to hear your opinion on that matter..
Thank you for reading

Mohamed Shahin

I personally have not read any blogs from dancers over there who are attacking Egypt, but I don't follow dancer blogs all that regularly. The ones I have looked at have sometimes presented a less-than-rosy picture of life as a dancer there, but then that could be the case among dancers in other places, too. It's not like you have to go to Egypt to encounter a manager who thinks hiring you entitles him to a little "fun on the side," or patrons who make incorrect assumptions about your morals. Generally what I've read paints a very favorable picture of Egyptians as warm and hospitable people.

As an outsider, it is easy to glamorize the life of being a working dancer abroad. It's also easy to forget that the dance, or perhaps more the idea of a young, single woman moving around the world alone to pursue a dance career, is not always viewed in the most supportive light by those Egyptians who are religiously or socially conservative. Anyone who thinks they are going to waltz into Cairo and become the toast of the town is likely headed for disappointment, and being on the receiving end of such a reality check can cause some people to bristle.

Why would someone write such libelous words? Lots of possible reasons. Because it's easier to blame Egypt than face the possibility that you're not the great dancer you thought you were. Because you're in Egypt to build your brand, and controversy sells better than blandness. Because some dancers are immature or emotionally unbalanced, and they don't think their actions through very well.

Why would someone stay in a place they don't like? Because they've upended their life to pursue this dream and don't want to come home a without a success to show for it. Because maybe they're such shortsighted failures that they gambled everything on this dream, and when it didn't work out, they were stuck and couldn't afford the plane fare home. Perhaps they just like to complain and stir the pot, and things aren't actually as bad as what they're posting.

On one hand, I can understand why you're not naming these authors' names. On the other, when no one steps forward to challenge someone who's doing something wrong, the behavior isn't likely to stop. This isn't a private indiscretion. If you're publishing controversial opinions through an international medium, how much protection are you entitled to? If you're being specific, why shouldn't the other side get an opportunity for an equally specific rebuttal?

I don't know what kinds of words triggered such a passionate response, so maybe I'm missing something. But based on the things I've read from dancers working in Egypt, the negative things and the criticism I've read seemed totally valid.

I've never read anything that seemed unusually and unfairly harsh on Egypt and the Egyptian people. I've read things that were positive and things that were negative… just as I would expect from an informative piece about living in any country. I'm glad there are dancers out there who are frank about their experiences. I wouldn't want to read a fairytale story about someone's perfect experience dancing in Egypt if that's not true. It would be irresponsible to mislead others in such a way.

Egypt is going through some transformative times right now and I hope it all works out for the best. I can understand being sensitive during these uncertain times. On the other hand though, as an immigrant in the USA, the "love it or leave it" title strikes a chord with me. Should I not be allowed to voice my opinions of this country just because I am not originally from here? I live here, I am affected by the laws and policies and culture as much as the next person. Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech, and I feel just as entitled as the next person. There are thousands of Arabs living in the USA, many of them have very critical views of US foreign policy because of its effects in their home countries. Should these Arabs be told to "love or leave" the USA because of these opinions? Should they be told to stop talking about the negatives and only talk about the positives? I don't think so. So, what's wrong with foreign dancers in Egypt being somewhat critical of their host country?

Maybe you've been reading some misleading and exaggerated accounts. If that's the case, I'd love if you could present some of the points you disagree with and give us your counter-arguments. I'd love to hear your own thoughts on your country, and what's it's like to be a dancer there. I'd love it if you could gather others dancers whom you feel can present a picture that you feel is more positive and accurate. I think it's great to get as many perspectives as possible, and if you think we aren't seeing the whole picture, you can feel free to help us see it!

I liked Tiger's reply before the thread got merged.

Abuse thrives in the dark. As an American I have always valued free speech. And there are always two sides, at least, to every argument. I don't know what these other dancers are complaining about - since we haven't seen what they've said.

As someone who worked several years in Egypt I can say the following:

1. Yes, it's dirty there because of the sand in the air - particularly during khamseen season.

2. Yes, club owners hassled me to sleep with them, but no, I didn't, and I still kept my job. It was very annoying though, to fight them off every time I went to work.

3. The Egyptian people are some of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met and I am still in close contact with my musicians who helped me navigate the system.

4. Working full time as a dancer ANYWHERE is a hard job and not for the fainthearted.

5. The revolution has made it harder to work as a dancer in Egypt because many of the places were burned and the tourists have not returned to the ones still standing. Leila Farid told me the new government is considering revoking foreign dancer licenses again - so your rant may be superfluous. The unhappy campers may have to leave.

But NO, I, like the others, think everyone is entitled to express their opinions if they are spoken from their personal truth and not done only to discourage others from taking their (few remaining) jobs. It is very easy to make accusations when you have not named names.

Yasmin Henkesh
Sands of Time Music
serpentine.org

Tourbeau

I don’t want mention names and include likes, just because I don’t want look like I’m fighting with someone, they are not important and they will not change anything with their words, but this is their opinion, and I respected, but my always question is, why these people are still in Cairo and still taking advantage from my cultural? Why they don’t want to leave?
I can tell you why this dancer lives in Cairo but at the same time hates the country and its people!
For some reasons, first of all, taking advantage of Egypt is the biggest place and faster place to make your name if you dance there, so you can go on the internet, post pictures and video saying that I’m her dancing in Cairo, and of course people when see that, they think she is the best dancer in the world
And Egypt is the only place where you have the opportunity to dance on a live music and big band, and having a manager and things like that, in Egypt they feel important, because the Egyptian audience are very worm they make the dancer feels like she is the best dance in the world! Until she believe it. Also there is nothing to do in her country because in her country a lot like her, she is not special there, but in Cairo because of Egyptian people treat her like a very special person, and they love that feeling!! I know that for fact!!

yameyameyame

People who write their experiences in Cairo they can be lying about some things for some reasons. And if you want to speak about experience in dance, why do you have to trash the country, you don’t say one good thing about it, all you can find in Egypt is Just dirty?
Why don’t you say they write that stuff to scare other dancers to come to Egypt so it will not be more competition for them? They know and I know, right now the dance opportunities are very little in Egypt, dancers who already have a job in Cairo is very afraid if someone else will come and take the job from her or share it with her.
You are saying that you are immigrant in the US, the same as me, so there is so many things her I don’t like and I’m sure you do too, now I can go on the internet and write everything bad about America and speak horrible about it? No, I choose to live in America, and I have to take it the way it is!! But I complain too much, so I will have to leave.. I appreciate the country where I live even thought its not the perfect place either! But that was my choice to live here..
I read what is on the internet, and I know some of these people personally and I heard very bad things myself coming out of them.
If you want to hear from other people’s opinion and they also live in Cairo and dance in Cairo, please click here. https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...50682889355201

Originally Posted by Serpentine

I liked Tiger's reply before the thread got merged.

Abuse thrives in the dark. As an American I have always valued free speech. And there are always two sides, at least, to every argument. I don't know what these other dancers are complaining about - since we haven't seen what they've said.

As someone who worked several years in Egypt I can say the following:

1. Yes, it's dirty there because of the sand in the air - particularly during khamseen season.

2. Yes, club owners hassled me to sleep with them, but no, I didn't, and I still kept my job. It was very annoying though, to fight them off every time I went to work.

3. The Egyptian people are some of the nicest, funniest people I have ever met and I am still in close contact with my musicians who helped me navigate the system.

4. Working full time as a dancer ANYWHERE is a hard job and not for the fainthearted.

5. The revolution has made it harder to work as a dancer in Egypt because many of the places were burned and the tourists have not returned to the ones still standing. Leila Farid told me the new government is considering revoking foreign dancer licenses again - so your rant may be superfluous. The unhappy campers may have to leave.

But NO, I, like the others, think everyone is entitled to express their opinions if they are spoken from their personal truth and not done only to discourage others from taking their (few remaining) jobs. It is very easy to make accusations when you have not named names.

Yasmin Henkesh
Sands of Time Music
serpentine.org

Thank you for your honesty!

Originally Posted by MohamedShahin

If you want to hear from other people’s opinion and they also live in Cairo and dance in Cairo, please click here. https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...50682889355201
"...Let me close this commentary by bring you all the good news; Egypt has just opened all work papers for any foreign dancers who would still like to make their dream come true by dancing in Egypt. So it is again possible for a dance artist to move to Egypt, to have a live band, and experience all the amazing experiences and feelings my culture has to offer.

Feel free to contact me any time for advices or recommendations regarding dancing in Egypt, I would love to help."

So it seems you have a vested interest in foreign dancers going to Egypt to try to work ... and asking for your services...

I now understand the motivation for your rant.

Originally Posted by MohamedShahin

You are saying that you are immigrant in the US, the same as me, so there is so many things her I don’t like and I’m sure you do too, now I can go on the internet and write everything bad about America and speak horrible about it? No, I choose to live in America, and I have to take it the way it is!! But I complain too much, so I will have to leave.. I appreciate the country where I live even thought its not the perfect place either! But that was my choice to live here..

I believe in freedom of speech and in voicing one's opinions. If there is something wrong with where you live, you voice your opinions and try to change it for the better. If everyone just "took it" or left, no place on earth would ever improve.

Again, I don't know what this person said that offended you so much, so I can't tell you what I think about what they said, and whether or not I think they are being unfair, and whether or not I think they are just trying to scare away potential competitors.

What I can say is that I disagree completely with "love it or leave it," "put up or shut up" philosophy. Maybe it's a little different for someone who's just living in another country temporarily, surely if you are using the opportunities a country provides you to advance your career you should have a more balanced view of that country, however I still believe such people are free to voice criticism.

Another vote for free speech.

I hate it when people in the US say "love it or leave it" to those who criticize the US government or American culture.

I dislike it just as much when it is said elsewhere in the world about some other place.

Originally Posted by Serpentine

So it seems you have a vested interest in foreign dancers going to Egypt to try to work ... and asking for your services...

I now understand the motivation for your rant.

No i don't think you understand!

Originally Posted by MohamedShahin

I’m sure in some cases it happens just like women all over the world in any profession sleep with the boss to get a job or the promotion. We cannot generalize something about Egypt, or any single country or profession, because of this.

Again, I still wonder why these dancers feel that they should share that with the whole world......

You make it sound like when women sleep with the bosses it's just about that woman wanting to get a promotion. And that when women talk about the issue it just makes other women look bad.

It's more complicated than that. It often reflects the fact that there are places, jobs, and countries in which women are treated like second-class citizens/ have abridged rights/ are put in positions where it is swallow-your-ethics or not increase (or even loose) your income.

When I've read the few blogs about women dancers in Egypt. I have enough sense to read more than one, compare them, compare them with other things I know, and make informed thoughts about what I am reading....but I'll tell you, when I read about the pressure to sleep with people in power or to be a sexual commodity, I don't think less of the women involved in dance over there. It doesn't take away from my admiration of dancers...it makes me respect the many women who work their asses off to dance even though the performance industry can be so rough.

When I read about industries, job, situations where such sexual pressure exists...I'm not shocked, I'm sad. Women who speak out are not all saints and they aren't all harpies... but they are often questioning or complaining about things that need to be changed. When voices get silenced...things do not change.

Foreign dancers probably have more ability to speak about the negative aspects of the dance industry because they CAN leave if the repercusions of speaking out are bad. They may feel that their role and a dual outsider/insider pushes them to speak about things others will not or cannot.

I know Egypt is going through a great deal of change right now...and that some of that change is Egyptian women wanting a larger voice, the ability to talk about the negative and positives of their lives and try to get change to happen.

When I read a foreign female perspective it doesn't make me think "Awww, Egypt sucks." It makes me want MORE information about how that blogger's perspective compares to the perspectives of other women in the society in similar jobs or in very different ones.

Originally Posted by MohamedShahin

Tourbeau

I don’t want mention names and include likes, just because I don’t want look like I’m fighting with someone, they are not important and they will not change anything with their words, but this is their opinion, and I respected, but my always question is, why these people are still in Cairo and still taking advantage from my cultural? Why they don’t want to leave?

The international community isn't that big. Not naming names doesn't prevent people from making connections and making judgements about your motivations, even if you don't want to look like you're fighting with someone specific.

I admire your love of your country, but some of how you've spoken about some foreign women and the "love it or leave it" stuff makes me uncomfortable. It might be because I am a foreign woman living in a second country or it might be deeper than that.

(edited to add): I'd never say to a foreigner in America to shut up about their negative experiences and to love or leave my country. I'd disagree with what they say, but not their right to say it. I know that my country is not always good to everyone who lives within it and I know if those voices are not heard that my country will never be as good as it can be.

There are two aspects about this that I do not quite agree with, one as a member of this community and one as an expatriate:

First, messages that seem to be about a specific individual, but do not identify that individual are not a good idea. Anybody who posts such a message has to be fully aware that the readers, even if they are lacking any malice, will wonder who may have caused this comment - which can easily lead to incorrect ideas and in the worst case, hurtful false rumors. I am very, very uncomfortable with this kind of message posted in a public forum.

Second, like others, I strongly disagree with the "love it or leave it". As an yet another cultural transplant, I do not have to love the US unconditionally to live there. Others have made this argument very convincingly above. However, I think that the discussion of an expatriate's experiences should come with an added level of expectations. That is, I would be in a weak position complaining loudly and persistently about life in the US and how much better Germany is - and frankly, I would deserve people challenging me with the question of why I don't leave.

Instead, my position is: I am an adult, I made a choice to live where I live, aware of the fact that my choice comes with positive and negative aspects. I can not just throw a temper tantrum if things are different from my native country and expect those around me to listen and take me seriously, I need to do a bit more work. Rather, I can and often do compare and contrast, ponder the differences and what they mean and where they come from, daydream how one could create a much better place by taking the best of different countries, and of course I discuss publicly what is not so fabulous in either country. If I can believe my American friends, they enjoy these mutual exchanges as much as I do. And, when it comes to others' expressions, I tend to hold them to similar standards: I love well-reflected sharing of experiences (even the sometimes negative and ugly) and insightful discussions of cultural differences, whereas rants, expressions of superiority and the like reflect badly upon the complainer and his or her native culture, no matter what that culture may be.

Mohamed explains on his Facebook notes that his thoughts come from a comment that he saw online. He should add that he saw it here on Bhuz and be more specific about it. I remember that thread.
But let me say that the person or people who mad the comment(s) were speaking in a general way and focusing on personal experiences.

I think that:

- There are honest people and bad people everywhere in the world.
- Egypt is beautiful, but still has a lot to learn about many things, including gender equality.
- There are many dancers in Egypt who are just dancing, not doing any other "business". I know a few.
- Sexual favours do exist in belly dance in Egypt. But that is not exclusive of belly dance (it also exists in film industry, music, etc.)
- Dancers who are doing other "business" besides dancing is something which is not exclusive of Egypt.
- Sexual harassment for job promotion is well know all over the world, but in countries where gender rights are not equal it can be a step for getting many things.
- Many dancers have or had a relationship with someone within dance business. Some are married to musicians, male dancers, managers or club owners. That may help in many ways, but it has got nothing to do with prostitution. It has to do with other choices, including love.
- If a woman wants to go to bed with a man, nobody has nothing to do with it. And being free doesn't mean she's a prostitute.
- The idea of belly dance as a dirty thing comes, unfortunately and first of all, from egyptians! Not from foreigners for sure...
- Freedom of expression has got nothing to do with love or hate. Opinions are different from feelings. That's why one can love someone who don't agree with.

I think this is a deeply complex issue. I know over many months since the revolution, 'dance related people' involved with Cairo have been trying to be positive about Egypt to compensate the ridiculously overblown negativity about Cairo and the portrayal of it being like fire on Babylon.

Egyptian media is covering the cancellation of the Ahlan Wa sahlan Festival. I didnt think it was a good move on the festivals part to blame the Salafists (or recents problems)as anyone who knows anything about the festivals know the Nilegroup is taking place as we speak.. albeit in significantly reduced numbers.

I dont personally make it a habit to read dancers blogs but I do see things on facebook which can be irritating. The reason I find some of the stuff irritating is because people often blow things out of proportion without any real context to the situation and because they are a dancer in Cairo (even in the most loosest terms) some people drink every word like it's 100% correct.

I am one of those people who love Egypt and have lived there, and plan to again in the not too distant future.
Egyptians find it hard to live in Egypt, so I suppose it comes as no surprise to find an ambitious young women crashing into all sorts of dodgy situations in a culture they know diddly squat about and then wanting to share it with the world for support.

I dont think it is terribly useful to encourage dancers to flock to Egypt in search of work, especially now! there is not enough work to go around. the permit situation has been circling since the revolution and it is a time of great uncertainty, especially for Egyptians.
For most, it is a waste of time and money. Some non Egyptian dancers not only end up leaving the country disatisfied, but they also end up hating it and tell anyone who wants to listen.
The same applies to those dancers and tourists everywhere who have brief relationships with Egyptian men.. it's all about the bad men and Egypt.

I guess there is little we can do about dancers who want to share all... however, knowing people in the scene in Cairo, I would say remarkably little actually gets out. I know for a fact some of the people who have the nicest public fronts and high profiles (not just dancers) have crapped from a great height on other dancers to get what they want. It's not always a nice place to be and I personally wouldnt want it for all the tea in China (as they say in the UK).
It is not a warm friendly environment.. it can be at times ruthless and depressing.

This all of course needs to be separated from Egyptian culture and politics, as Tourbeau states. Crap can happen anywhere.

Egypt is beautiful, complex and unique. And out the belly dance ring of fire..it is a lovely place to be (if you can accept it for what it is, warts and all).

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

Egyptian media is covering the cancellation of the Ahlan Wa sahlan Festival.

Caroline, could you open another thread and explain us about it? I didn't know it had been cancelled...

It is featured in some of the online newspapers today. My husband read it on Al Ahram Arabic and one other one, it was one of the headlines. I shall try and find them.

They basically said that the festival had been cancelled because of 'fear of Salafism', lack of security and the Imbaba incident.
Raqia said she had been offered alot of money to move the festival to a Gulf State...

The festival was apparently expecting 1200 dancers.. which is marvelous considering this festival has not seen numbers like that for over 7 years.

It is difficult to know if any of it was accurate reporting of course.

The Nile Festival is now in full swing with approx 150 (or so I heard on the phone last night).

I just hope people have not been left in the lurch like they were in April when the Nile festival cancelled last minute.

This was the only thing I could find in English but i guess it depends on what heading you search for?

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/201...-festival.html

PS This is what we were reading in todays media so please check with the festival if you plan to travel as it maybe nonsense!

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I dont think it is terribly useful to encourage dancers to flock to Egypt in search of work, especially now! there is not enough work to go around. the permit situation has been circling since the revolution and it is a time of great uncertainty, especially for Egyptians.

Thank you for saying that.

I did not know about Raqia's cancellation either. Oh, to be a fly on the wall during those discussions!

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

This was the only thing I could find in English but i guess it depends on what heading you search for?

Elder of Ziyon: Fear of Islamists: Belly-dance festival canceled in Egypt

PS This is what we were reading in todays media so plaese check with the festival if you plan to travel as it maybe nonsense!

Your PS is indeed an important point! On Raqia's facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!...p?id=577404528 Leyla Lanty posts that she saw Raqia 3 days ago and as of then nothing was canceled. So, who knows? Was the cancellation a decision made since Leyla last saw her, or was it an unfounded rumor? I have no idea. I guess those who plan to attend will soon be reporting back to us on which side is accurate!

Originally Posted by Serpentine

So it seems you have a vested interest in foreign dancers going to Egypt to try to work ... and asking for your services...

I now understand the motivation for your rant.

Even if Mohamed doesn't have an ulterior financial motive, he's still entitled to be hurt by whatever this person (these people?) wrote. There's obviously frustration on both sides. If this mystery dancer has a grievance, she has a right to air it, but it is also valid to ask why someone is voluntarily living in a place that she finds so unpleasant. To the people who consider Egypt their home, it would be understandably insulting and painful to see an outsider complaining about how awful it is, and it does call into question how much merit someone could attach to the experience of living and working in Egypt when they hate it so openly. To me, this is the bigger issue. If this dancer has gone to Egypt to shore up her credentials as an "authentic source," dragging a nasty, condescending attitude about it all over the Internet undermines her own marketability. I don't expect anyone to like everything completely, and it's reasonable to be homesick or to struggle with cultural dissonance when living abroad, but sometimes in the name of professionalism, one has to know the difference between a frank, unbiased recounting of the negatives in an effort to disseminate the truth, and a personal rant you should keep to yourself.

I can complain as much as I like about my mother, but when you badmouth her, oh, now them's fightin' words! As they like to say, مصر أم الدنيا.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If this dancer has gone to Egypt to shore up her credentials as an "authentic source," dragging a nasty, condescending attitude about it all over the Internet undermines her own marketability. I don't expect anyone to like everything completely, and it's reasonable to be homesick or to struggle with cultural dissonance when living abroad, but sometimes in the name of professionalism, one has to know the difference between a frank, unbiased recounting of the negatives in an effort to disseminate the truth, and a personal rant you should keep to yourself.

The question is, which is it? Since none of us knows who the person in question is, and what she has written, how can we judge whether or not the grievance is legitimate?

As of now, no one who has responded to this thread has been able to point to someone who has spoken about Egypt in such a manner, no one who has responded has even been able to recall having ever read anything by a dancer in Egypt talking about Egypt in this manner. All we have been able to do is confirm some of the realistic, albeit negative aspects of life as a dancer in Egypt.

No specific arguments have been made, no specific thing this person has said has been repeated and countered. We have only this general idea based on the original post, and each one of us is imagining whatever we would like to imagine about whatever the critical article in question may have contained.

Is this a post made to counter an article (or multiple articles) that was misleading and defamatory? Or is this just a straw man argument against freedom of speech?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Even if Mohamed doesn't have an ulterior financial motive, he's still entitled to be hurt by whatever this person (these people?) wrote. There's obviously frustration on both sides. If this mystery dancer has a grievance, she has a right to air it, but it is also valid to ask why someone is voluntarily living in a place that she finds so unpleasant. To the people who consider Egypt their home, it would be understandably insulting and painful to see an outsider complaining about how awful it is, and it does call into question how much merit someone could attach to the experience of living and working in Egypt when they hate it so openly. To me, this is the bigger issue. If this dancer has gone to Egypt to shore up her credentials as an "authentic source," dragging a nasty, condescending attitude about it all over the Internet undermines her own marketability. I don't expect anyone to like everything completely, and it's reasonable to be homesick or to struggle with cultural dissonance when living abroad, but sometimes in the name of professionalism, one has to know the difference between a frank, unbiased recounting of the negatives in an effort to disseminate the truth, and a personal rant you should keep to yourself.

I can complain as much as I like about my mother, but when you badmouth her, oh, now them's fightin' words! As they like to say, مصر أم الدنيا.

I TOTALLY agree with you Tourbeau. The Egyptians I know are VERY proud of their country and it hurts them to hear anything bad said about it. I do not like to see wanna-be star dancers airing dirty laundry in public, either. But it was the way Mr. Shahin presented his case on the forum that got to me. I'm always looking for the business 'angle' in things made so public. Why in this way, now? Everyone knows things are bad there now. Those of us who can are trying to help in our own small ways.

My personal opinion (freedom of speech ) is that this is not the time to badmouth Egypt for someone who supposedly loves some part of its culture. To me, that shows incredible self-centeredness (is that a word?). But on the other hand, trying to take advantage of foreign dancers and their money by encouraging them to try to work in a place where there is none ... I think that's just as bad.

But again, I agree with your Om ad-Dunya comment.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Is this a post made to counter an article (or multiple articles) that was misleading and defamatory? Or is this just a straw man argument against freedom of speech?

"Mohamed explains on his Facebook notes that his thoughts come from a comment that he saw online. He should add that he saw it here on Bhuz and be more specific about it. I remember that thread.
But let me say that the person or people who mad the comment(s) were speaking in a general way and focusing on personal experiences."
ANA_bellydancer

Is this what you are referring to? Was there a thread on Bhuz that started this?

Originally Posted by Serpentine

"Mohamed explains on his Facebook notes that his thoughts come from a comment that he saw online. He should add that he saw it here on Bhuz and be more specific about it. I remember that thread.
But let me say that the person or people who mad the comment(s) were speaking in a general way and focusing on personal experiences."
ANA_bellydancer

Is this what you are referring to? Was there a thread on Bhuz that started this?

Yes, Serpentine! But I think Mohamed must be the one to say here where he saw that as he did on Facebook...

I think many of us know exactly who Mr. Shahin is writing about, and have a very good idea as to why, but are also very reluctant to contribute to this whole distasteful episode. I can't imagine that it's going to end well for either of the two people most directly involved, and I really, really wish it would just stop now before it gets any uglier or more damaging.

Mohamed, I've met you briefly a few times. I've learned a lot from your workshops, and I respect and admire you very much. You have an excellent professional reputation and a strong, affectionate following. You are in great demand as a teacher and performer, and your work is highly regarded. With this in mind:

We all understand the temptation to write things like this in the heat of anger and pain and pride. Please think, though. Publishing them all over the Internet could hurt you far more than the other person. These words will last a very long time, and they will reach far more people than have ever taken classes or workshops or lessons with you. Do you want this to be the first thing -- or even one of the first ten things -- that people think of when your name is mentioned? Whether you feel you are completely right or not, and no matter how many people say they agree with you or not, please consider the harm you may be doing yourself and your business by making this very personal battle so very public.

I was thinking about this as well... Thanks, Suzana!

Originally Posted by Suzana

I think many of us know exactly who Mr. Shahin is writing about, and have a very good idea as to why, but are also very reluctant to contribute to this whole distasteful episode.

Well I have no idea who he's talking about or why, and as such I'm completely confused. But if it's not going to be uber-educational to learn about it, then I won't bother to, or ask for details.

So one Bhuzzer is talking trash about working in Egypt?

Pardon my flippance, but this seems a bit like a tempest in a teacup. We used to talk sh_t all the time about Miles Copeland. O-dette-Jay comes up conversation frequently and I don't think anybody has anything nice to say about her. We criticize Israel. We criticize Palestine. We criticize America. We criticize each other. We're all jealous h8ters after all.

Mr. Shahin, please don't think that one Bhuzzer is going to change the overall image of Egypt in our minds. Cairo is dirty? So is Chicago and I still go there. SOME people in Egypt are hateful? Most of my community in Indiana is hateful. I'm desensitized to it :) But I also don't agree with the "love it or leave it" comment. America has LOTS of problems, but just leaving the country isn't going to fix them. I'm sure the same could be said of every nation or community.

You could put what Mohamed said in any country because people are people all over the world, they talk trash, they talk nice, there are bad points and good points, and bellydancers have just about the same problems here that they do anywhere else.

But I can understand his feelings because I still bristle a lot when people from other countries trash the American people, and especially when much blood has been shed, like we have lost many soldiers, and then someone trashes us, well I get extremely upset too. The first thing I do as well is passionately defend the good points of my country as well.

I do agree with Serpentine

I have being living in Egypt since 2005 and I know what happens here, note that after the revolution its truly hard to find work as a dancer around here and as an Egyptian myself ( new Egyptian)I believe that we should understand most of the mixed feelings around here.

It’s hard to work as a dancer everywhere in the world and of course in Egypt will not be different, each one can speak what they have in mind, at least I believe in freedom of speech, however sometimes we need to understand that if someone was speaking the same about your own country I believe you will feel it inside your heart.

No dancer can state that life is PINK anywhere, I have danced in several countries.

I just hope that new Egypt will be amazing and able to give much more to the world as it as so many potential.

Marinna Hafsa