Thread: Bellydance scene in Istanbul and gigs; not so good!

I finally took the plunge, took a 4-month leave of absence from my job in Canada and came to Istanbul to experience life. I will start a teaching job at the end of August and am getting getting used to my new city.

Although i will have my daytime job here, I am determined to dance while I am here. However, after visting Turkey 3 times already and talking to my Turkish friends, it appears that bellydance is very hidden here! Unlike Canada and US, where you can see bellydancing in most Middle Eastern and Greek restaurants on weekends, here, unless you are a tourist and go to extremely touristy spots in town with special shows, there is no bellydancing in mainstreams restaurants and venues:(((

A few of my Turkish friends told me that here, locals don't go to see bellydance or oryantal dance as Turks call it. My Turkish gf told me that bellydance is looked down upon and good girls woudn't want to take bellydance lessons or dance unless they are at home with women. Also, it seems bellydancers are not considered nice women (here we go, the typical misrepresentation of us as usual).

This whole situation makes me very sad and depressed. While I believe I can make something happen, I am extremely disappointed to learn about the lack of a strong bellydance community in Istanbul as well as lack of frequent and regular bellydance events and shows here.

Has anyone worked and gotten gigs here in Istanbul as bellydancer? I would love to hear from your experience and any information you can provide. Feel free to post here or send me a private message at my email: gabaee@yahoo.com

Thank you sooo much!
Goldie

Originally Posted by aida21

I finally took the plunge, took a 4-month leave of absence from my job in Canada and came to Istanbul to experience life. I will start a teaching job at the end of August and am getting getting used to my new city.

Although i will have my daytime job here, I am determined to dance while I am here. However, after visting Turkey 3 times already and talking to my Turkish friends, it appears that bellydance is very hidden here! Unlike Canada and US, where you can see bellydancing in most Middle Eastern and Greek restaurants on weekends, here, unless you are a tourist and go to extremely touristy spots in town with special shows, there is no bellydancing in mainstreams restaurants and venues:(((

A few of my Turkish friends told me that here, locals don't go to see bellydance or oryantal dance as Turks call it. My Turkish gf told me that bellydance is looked down upon and good girls woudn't want to take bellydance lessons or dance unless they are at home with women. Also, it seems bellydancers are not considered nice women (here we go, the typical misrepresentation of us as usual).

This whole situation makes me very sad and depressed. While I believe I can make something happen, I am extremely disappointed to learn about the lack of a strong bellydance community in Istanbul as well as lack of frequent and regular bellydance events and shows here.

Has anyone worked and gotten gigs here in Istanbul as bellydancer? I would love to hear from your experience and any information you can provide. Feel free to post here or send me a private message at my email: gabaee@yahoo.com

Thank you sooo much!
Goldie

That's pretty much how I thought it was there, but sad to hear it confirmed

Maybe get in touch with Tayyar Adkeniz? He puts together an annual dance weeklong with lots of teachers, including some locals. They've had to be cancelled the last couple of years, due to political/travel issues, but he does have contacts for both Oryental and Romani teachers.
Turkey Events | Turkey | FolkTours.com

Also, here's a short list of teachers in Istanbul, including Hale Sultan, with contact info!
Teachers - Raks TURKEY

I'm sure the locals don't take bellydance lessons, or have haflas, but there is some dance tourism to Istanbul, so there are dancers there who teach privates or small groups of tourists.

What kind of teaching job did you find there? Are you a teacher by trade? I'm working on my TESOL and wondering how useful it might be to me IRL overseas, so I'm very curious.

By the way, Meissoun (still a sometimes-bhuzzer) is something of an expert on the scene in Istanbul. Here's her shopping page, at the bottom she lists shows, teachers, & festivals. You could probably e-mail her for more info, too, she's very sweet & helpful.

Istanbul - Adresses for Shopping

Hello may I suggest that you talk to Lara Adrienne she dances in Turkey. Here is her Facebook page. I hope this helps.

http://www.facebook.com/LaraAdrienne?ref=ts

Maybe you could check with Athena Najat (friend her on Facebook)? she was recently in Istanbul for a couple of months and might have some insight and contacts.

There are weekly dance classes with Nesrin Topkapi, so there must be a certain interest - but I don't know who goes there. Maybe you could check these out?

The only place I have ever seen that has a lot of Oriental dance classes in dance schools and sports clubs is Beirut.

And yes, Oryantal dance in Istanbul is for tourists. Even Asena and Didem perform in "Turkish Night" shows. On the other hand, these are respectable, safe places.
I remember seeing bellydance shows advertised in restaurants around Istiklal caddesi - but they looked more like sleazy places. See picture....

And of course if you tell a local man that you are a dancer you are likely to get an "oh la la" reaction....

MEISSOUN

Middle Eastern dance is a legitimate cultural art! It is not about seducing the sultan or other debauched, insensitively Orientalist sexual fantasies! It is based on real folk dancing, done in social situations by regular people in the cultures where it originates! And we are serious artists who deserve the same respect as ballet dancers and other professional performers!




I HAS A SAD.
Now my rant has been contradicted.

Funnily enough, I went to a little subterranean club in SultanAhmet and it was very much like this.. dancers were far more up close and personal than many of the dancers I had seen in Egypt before the revolution.

Again, I think the Turkish population are not in the habit of freqenting the big dance and music venues like Orient House and Kervasaray as it is about 80E per person.. you have to be worth a few pence to afford that!

I am going back in November so will be interetsed to see what has changed since last time I went.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Middle Eastern dance is a legitimate cultural art! It is not about seducing the sultan or other debauched, insensitively Orientalist sexual fantasies! It is based on real folk dancing, done in social situations by regular people in the cultures where it originates! And we are serious artists who deserve the same respect as ballet dancers and other professional performers!




I HAS A SAD.
Now my rant has been contradicted.

Aww, c'mon. Just because that's not true in Turkey doesn't mean it's not true. Although, even in Egypt & Lebanon (where it really IS an extension of the way people dance in everyday life) and where people may have some respect for a highly skilled artist, it certainly has its seedy side and associations with prostitution.

But just because prostitutes do a thing doesn't mean it's not a beautiful art. Right?

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Aww, c'mon. Just because that's not true in Turkey doesn't mean it's not true. Although, even in Egypt & Lebanon (where it really IS an extension of the way people dance in everyday life) and where people may have some respect for a highly skilled artist, it certainly has its seedy side and associations with prostitution.

But just because prostitutes do a thing doesn't mean it's not a beautiful art. Right?

Art is in the eye of the beholder.. I tend to think of it more as a highly skilled form of entertainment.. which is an extension of *some* peoples everyday life, (although that in itself sounds far fetched).

People in the ME and Turkey dance a version of belly dance to popular music at parties etc. they do not have daily rituals in the home and they don't wear costumes or train to do it.. it is a far cry from having a career in it and I guess this advert is a graffitti art image similar to something one might see in the place being advertised (as I saw myself in Istanbul and other places in the ME). These clubs have exsisted a very long time.

Well, travelling through countries where Raqs Sharqi / Oryantal dance is actually part of the culture, one is in for a reality check.

Basically, any woman who performs in front of strangers is a slut. Or else she would not do it.
Period. A good woman covers hersef up and stays at home.
(goes for singers and actresses too)

To quot a young, open-minded Turkish guy: "You European dancers are ok. But our Turkish dancers are all slutty."

That's not to say that there aren't people who enjoy a good performance and appreciate a skilled dancer. But to expect that people in the Middle East / Turkey would see dance as a respectable career choice is just wishful thinking.

Of course it's different when we are talking about social dancing when everybody gets up and shakes around the dance floor. But that's a completely different situation.

MEISSOUN

You have to admit that the portrayal of the dance in that wall art as something that excites slobbering guys and bleary-eyed drunks does not fit into the picture we like to paint of the honorable, everyday folkloric roots. Realistically, everywhere where the dance exists as a social dance and a theatrical dance, it also exists as something that may be done in skeezy circumstances by people of questionable morals. Even within the US, there are dancers working the BD angle as strippers, prostitutes, or desperate gig hunters who don't object to sleeping with the boss if it gets the job. We get so carried away with defending the nobility of what we're doing, sometimes we lose sight of the truth that not being particularly noble has always been a part of the indigenous traditions, too.

Clearly there's a massive difference between dancing among female friends in street clothes at a party or wedding celebration and putting on a costume and dancing in front of a mixed audience for money. A massive difference.

But there is truth to the notion that the stage version is an outgrowth of the movement vocabulary in the social dancing.

And yes, art is subjective. But in it's highest expression, I see this dance form as being just as artistic as the music that it interprets. And just as heartbreakingly beautiful and haunting. The dancer is just as much an artist as the composer and performers of the music, to me.

I had no idea how inappropriate and scandalous the Turkish population sees belly dance!
And their country houses I'd say one (if not more!) of the most sought after costume designers?! I have to ask, how is Didem viewed and is she fairly compensated? Does she teach? Or is she enough of a celebrity to not be subjeced to the eyerolls or viewed as a "harlot"?

Does this perception (and that grotesque mural) have anything to do with specific stylistic preferences? I'm personally thinking of Tulay Karaca. I admire her dancing and zill artistry but every time I watch her on YouTube, i'm scandalized by her costumes! I just watched one and while she's strategically covered, she appears to have a g-string with fringe on! While us dancers looked past the "flash" did the public just see "sex?"

Didem offers private classes, but they are on the expensive side.

The choice of overly daring costumes certainly contributes to a dancer's bad reputation (Dina anyone?). I mean, if WE are scandalized, think about your average viewer in some Anatolyan farmer village?

But dancers have always been outcasts, even when they are fully covered.
Not too long ago being a ballerina was NOT a reputable career choice for a girl in Western countries! Ballet dancers were paid so little that they needed "supporters"....

MEISSOUN

These kinds of seedy clubs exist in Egypt, too, although I don't think an advertisement like that would be tolerated there.

I haven't been to Turkey personally (yet!) but it seems to me that the scene in Turkey is mostly different from the scene in Egypt in two ways:

1) Turkey is a more 'open' society that can paint a mural like that out in the open

2) Egypt has more 'star' bellydancers, including the old movies that still play on TV every day and a large network of high-end tourist clubs. Dancers, until the recent wave of conservativism, were still common at weddings. Belly dancers must seem more relevant to Egyptians than to Turks.


But the two countries approach bellydance similarly in that:

1) Most people-on-the-street in both countries can bellydance. They're proud of their dance skills and they bust out bellydance moves in the club and at weddings regularly. This is their social dance, they know it and love it.

1) Bellydancing in costume, as a performance for money, often (not always) occurs in seedy places where the dancer are as objectified as strippers are here. Like our strippers, they may or may not be actual prostitutes, and they may or may not rehearse and choreograph vigilantly and think of themselves as fantastic dancers and entertainers. But they are definitely selling themselves onstage as sexual entertainment for men who are in the mood to misbehave. That's frowned on everywhere you go, but even more in some societies than others.

2) Not ALL bellydancing occurs in those seedy places, though. There are stars dancing on television and on big stages. More in Egypt than in Turkey (where I have the idea that bellydance is thought to be an old-fashioned entertainment). Once someone is a 'star' they are forgiven and even loved in spite of their supposedly bad behavior or sexual dress. I could give a hundred examples from Hollywood...

Actually, bellydancing is quite common on Turkish TV I think.
When I used to have a regular gig in a Turkish restaurant, they had the TV running in the office where I changed my costumes and there was always some Friday/Saturday night show on with one or even several dancers.

I am not up-to-date with the Ibo Show (Ibrahim Tatlises) but Asena became famous there and so did Didem.

I remember telling a consierge at my hotel that I was going to watch Asena at the Kervansaray and he wondered: "but she is a big star!"

MEISSOUN

Hi guys:

Since i am the one starting this thread i had some more thoughts:

I have been to Turkey 3 times now. I have been living in Istanbul since mid July now. As I mentioned i am starting a teaching job at a private school (I am a librarian and also have Teaching English degree) and will also be teaching private Spanish and English lessons.

I def. intend to find out some dance gigs here but it's not easy. Like Meissoun quoted a guy, yes many people perceive dancing as slutty. My ex Turkish boyfriend said to me "forget about dancing here, it's slutty and everyone here can put a hipscarf and shake it"/ Another friend said "are you gonna teaching me bellydance/strip tease"? so yeah, with the exception of educated people in the dance field, people fail to see it as art and they still hypocraticaly continue to visually enjoy it. But then again, even in Canada where i am from and other places, generally people perceive our art as sexual. We all know this! I know a Canadian man whom I have known for many years and he never came on to me before; however, when one night he saw me dance and realized i was a bellydancer, he couldn't stop hitting on me! So it's almost a universal thing that we are seen as slutty and sexualized objects.

We all here know great dancers from Turkey like Sema Yildiz, Didem, and many more. None of my Turkish friends know who Sema is and they haven't heard of IBO show. They do know Nesrin Topkapi and love her.

I dont know, so far, i have been busy settling into a new life and have not had a chance to look into the dance scene here. I believe anything is possible but it's much much more difficult here.

I visited Turkey a few years back and I was never able to go to a belly dance show. Every hotel concierge, tour guide, EVERYONE detoured my husband and me away from shows. We did get a brochure for a stage event, but I got food poisoning the night of the show and didn't get to go.

Also, the next day I wanted to go to Bella's belly dance store, but I was still too sick to go (lasted two weeks). My husband tried, but he said the traffic was terrible and our hotel was on the other side of Istanbul from where Bella's store was located. He never made it there either :-(. Bella might be able to help, but I'm thinking she does most of her business outside of Turkey.

There are a lot of young ultra conservatives in Instanbul and I wonder if they are very influential in the polical world and are frowning on belly dance?

Azeeza

PS There is ONE extremely popular Turkish belly dancer there currently... I *think* her name might be Asna? I can't find the DVD I purchased while I was there. There are posts here regarding her. I wonder how she was able to break through the dance world and make it to stardom in Turkey. She's VERY GOOD.

I guess you mean Asena. She became famous through regular appereances on TV, just like Didem.

It's interesting how people's experiences in Istanbul vary.
I have a friend who went to Marrakech first and then to Istanbul - expecting it to be similar. Which it isn't at all. So he was very dissapointed and didn't like it.

I first went with people who had been there before and knew about dance shows, so I naturally went to see the shows easily.
Also I hardly get in contact with people who are against dance because the people I know in Istanbul are either involved with Oryantal dance or with Tango. (The latter being obviously comfortable with a social setting where non-related men and women dance in close embrace...)

MEISSOUN

The impressions I have got from Istanbul are that there is quite a bit of dancing going on, but a big part of it is packaged together with folklore, generic music and semi-local food into the kitch-touristy combos. I have so far only seen one of these shows, because despite being very touristy, these places don't really excel in communication :) I have also been told that there are not that many foreign dancers working in Istanbul, and that most of the employers are very partial towars Turkish dancers.

Well, ultimately we go to Turkey to see TURKISH dancers, aren't we?

It's an interesting thing: So many non-Middle Eastern dancers want to work in Istanbul/Cairo/Dubai/...
But given a choice, we would rather watch a local dancer than one from Russia/Brazil/Japan...

And of course it's much easier for the clubs to hire a local than to go through the hassle of getting a work permit for a foreigner. Even more so when you can have a big Turkish dance star in your show as it is the case nowadays.

MEISSOUN

Some things said in this thread are true, and some are not exactly accurate.

There are plenty of Turks who go to see belly dance on weekends. Belly dancers are hired for weddings, kina geceleri (henna night/hen night/bachelorette party), birthday parties in addition to the touristic places like Kervanseray, Sultanas, Gar, etc.

Many Turks think belly dance is sleazy, and many others view it as an art.

Turkish people DO take belly dance lessons. I teach 3 times a week in two locations, and all of my students are Turkish. (At one point, I also had a Syrian and a German, but nearly all are Turkish housewives looking to learn to dance/get out of the house/lose weight.)

The problem I have with many Turkish dancers is that they grab a costume and hit the stage without any training, hoping to get easy money quickly. Sometimes they ARE slutty and it's embarrassing. Sometimes, they're just bad dancers, and that's equally embarrassing. Turkish dancers whom I respect have voiced the same complaint. Sorry, even if you are Turkish, it doesn't mean you come out of the womb being able to perform on stage. Lots of women in my classes ask me, half-jokingly, why they "can't do it" when they are Turkish. Plenty of "professional" belly dancers who are Turkish do not dance well. Some of these "dancers" work in gazinos or pavyons with 99% male clientele. Sometimes decent (or even pretty good) dancers who need the money work there, too. (Didem used to work in pavyons!)

Another thing that kills me is that some of these women are willing to dance for tips only! Drives me nuts.

I dance for Turks (bachelorette parties, weddings, birthdays, boat tours, fasilhanes/nightclubs, holiday parties, at Baba Zula concerts, and have even been lucky enough to appear on television a few times), and for tourists (boat tours, resorts, dinner shows, hotels.)

There is work for dancers in Turkey. There are setbacks for dancers in Turkey. There are misconceptions of dancers in Turkey. There are also dancers who perpetuate the stereotype, reinforcing the negative opinions held about dancers. There are also appreciative fans of belly dance in Turkey. This topic has many angles!

Thanks for the insights, that's really interesting. I would love to meet you when I am in istanbul, and possibly do an interview for a dance magazine.
Will you be available the second half of November? If so, please let me know: meissoun@meissoun.ch

MEISSOUN

Originally Posted by meissoun

Thanks for the insights, that's really interesting. I would love to meet you when I am in istanbul, and possibly do an interview for a dance magazine.
Will you be available the second half of November? If so, please let me know: meissoun@meissoun.ch

MEISSOUN

I will be here. I'll send you a message.

Thanks for the insights Lara, it sounds like dancers in Turkey face the same difficulties and misconceptions like dancers in all the other parts of the world. Can't wait to see you next month=)

I was going to reccommend Speaking with Lara Adrienne, but I see she already responded
aves @ Lara::

So since that area is covered I just want to put my two cents in on the dissapointment people have with the culture of Mideast/Persia and their sometimes lack of respect of the dance.

I know that here in the states we tend to teach over and over again to our students things that bring them comfort that this dance is a respectable art form, and a cultural dance done in social settings, but it also important for us to also come to terms with the reality that this dance also comes from a society that can be deeply religious. Even in this country, you can go to parts of the bible belt and find areas where even singing outside of church is not considered something a respectable young lady would do. In parts of Turkey and Egypt that are more conservative... I don't care how much of an "Art" and "cultural" thing belly dance is it will not be respected(and there is nothing wrong with that). I used to be extremely religious Islamically and even though i was a sufi... I did not believe that a woman should ever sing, nor should she EVER dance in public... sufis are in general a little less conservative Islamically.(then i found belly dance whoa flipped my world upside down)

You can't expect to change the opinion of people who see dancing in general as Haram, and a woman not covering as haram... and for those who stil follow just traditions because of their cultural background and not because they are deeply religious it still takes time for them to get over their upbringing. One of the restaurant owners I work with just told me recently in the same sitting that he doesn't believe in God but urged me to get married because I was pregnant... I think that we have to know for ourselves that we are respectful, that we appreciate this dance for cultural purposes and not get disenchanted when others don't see it our way... well because of their world view they may never and it is what it is.

Thank you so much for the insights.

It seems like we always want other cultures to be less complex than our own, and other people to be simpler than ourselves. We want *everyone* in Turkey to feel the *same* way about this dance so we can learn 'bellydance's place in Turkish culture' in one quick lesson or conversation.

Of course each individual has their own opinion, and there are probably conflicting ideas within some individuals. You know, just like here, right?

Leave Tulay along, she is great and her costumes are ok :) You jut didn't see other Turkish bellydancers' costumes: some of dancers were topless with just two small brass tablets on their nipples, many performed just in bra/belt without skirts, some performed without underwear under the skirts ( and they did turns). If you haven't watched their dvd of 70-80, then just google or better talk to Turkish, who loved bellydance, to change your attitude towards Tulay's costumes.
Now, to the subject:
oryantal (or bellydance) was never ever a respectful dance form in Turkey. Partly because of all history of disrespect of bellydance by Turks (almost all famous belydancers in Turkey were Armenians, Romany, Jews), Partly it is because of Ataturk political course: he wanted to make his country Modern and he hated everything Arabic and bellydance was considered as Arabic dance. He supported only Turkish Folk dances and bellydance (oryantal) was looked down and moved in the low class tavernas and gentelmen clubs (yes, here we are: bellydancers in Turkey are the same as strippers here. One of my friends was there and she told that was terribly: you can became a gynecologyst after watching their floorwork). In Egypt bellydancers were a huge part of movie industry, but Nesrin Topkapi was only one dancer, whom Turkish TV invitated very often. But even than, Turkish Oryantal differs a lot from Egyptian, where bellydance was presented on big stage and movies. We have to be happy that Asena and Didem dance on the big stage and Orient House shows bellydancers, otherwise it would be very sad.
I wish you a good luck and be careful.
I was told that in Turkey everything depends on how a dancer shows herself during a persdonnal conversation with the owner of club. Don't give up and keep us posted!!!