Thread: SWAP ETIQUETTE again!!!

Type: Bra/Belt Set

Style: Folkloric

Costume Size: Not sure of size, or not applicable

Seller's Country: USA

Status: Available

OK, here we go again.....being a pioneer in the bhuz.com world, I was the one who suggested a "Swap" shop blog on here years ago to Jennifer, (correct me if I am wrong.) My intent was for private parties to buy, sell and trade belly dance wares.
This site has grown beyond belief over the years, changed hands, & grown even more, the drawback is that some do not play with "integrity" PLEASE, if you have an item for sale, keep an eye on your post - there are people waiting with BAITED breath to purchase these items immediately or work out a plan with you....don't check back in a few days to see you is interested, keep a jump on it! If you are buying, do it immediately or work out a deal with the person fast, other people are willing if you are not. I know we all like to maintain integrity, but when someones says, "I will take it" - please do or contact immediately, it is not nice to say you will take something, and then say no, don't want it. Look at it, ask about it, don't freakin' fart around!!! If we didn't need the money we wouldn't be posting the freakin item!
Be kind to your Sisters in Dance, follow through what you say and don't waste time, because there is always someone else waiting in line.
Ajaa/ member since 2002, ex monitor/board leader of Swap meet and Belly Dance Video reviews.

Thank you. I have been very lucky on the swap meet so far, I have bought and sold dozens of items with only good experiences to share. Most Bhuzzers are awesome.

The stories I hear of bad transactions makes me wary, though. We have such a great community here so, folks, if you're going to be a part of it please respect your fellow dancers. Watch your swap threads, reply and pay promptly, and don't say you'll take something unless you're serious.

Maybe the initial buyer had second thoughts after being asked to send the money as a gift instead of a regular payment (after the deal was made)? I know I would.

Originally Posted by sarahshimmies

Maybe the initial buyer had second thoughts after being asked to send the money as a gift instead of a regular payment (after the deal was made)? I know I would.

if the seller asks you to pay it as a gift in most cases it means she does not want to pay Paypal fees, so if you r worring about sending as a gift just add 4% to the price and pay it for goods

I agree with everything that has been said ... but as someone who lives on the other side of the world I can't always get back right away (there have been nights I've been on the computer well past a decent bedtime stalking a thread!) I do try to tell people I'm in Australia but can't remember every time ... so please spare us a thought :-)

Moondances, if I have *agreed* I will pay $200 for x, then I don't expect to have to pay $208.

Sellers should pay their own Paypal fees and suck it up or charge $208 in the first place.

Originally Posted by MoondanceS

if the seller asks you to pay it as a gift in most cases it means she does not want to pay Paypal fees, so if you r worring about sending as a gift just add 4% to the price and pay it for goods

that's fair, but it should be added to the original deal, not have the proviso added after. In legal terms, if you change the contract after the initial agreement, without agreement from both sides, it voids the contract.

Alternatively, the seller could calculate the amount and add it to the asking price.

I will *NOT* purchase something if the seller does not want me to pay in an open and above board manner. The swap was loaded for a time with posts from people spending hundreds of dollars and not getting what they paid for. I can't afford to lose money that way, and I don't think many of us can.

Hell, I won't even buy from someone who I haven't seen online much, or who I haven't met in real life.

I hate to break it to you, but charging the buyer for your paypal fees is against paypal policy. It's simply a cost of doing business, like processing credit cards with a merchant account. Raising the price of your item to cover ALL fees (shipping/handling/processing) is something a seller could consider, but stating that the buyer must pay the fees or charging less for someone who pays a method other than paypal because there are no fees could lose you your paypal privileges if discovered or reported.

Not an opinion really.... simple Paypal policy fact. Do with that information what you will.

Also, if you send the money as a "gift" for professional merchandise, it will look suspect when you then try to deduct that purchase for tax purposes. Just sayin'

Well, it is also not necessarily bad to give things a little bit of time. Not everybody is online all the time, and I believe the usual "time before moving on" is 24 hours for costumes. For those for whom bellydance is a hobby, these transactions often are not the highest priority in life and have to come after hungry children, yelling bosses, broken cars :-) And, speaking as a somebody who has the memory capacity of a housefly, sometimes people forget, despite the best intentions.

I'm sorry I left my computer after saying I would take it. I had an exam to take, lectures to sit through, and a dress rehearsal to undergo. I did not realize you were in that much of a hurry to sell the item. Had I known that, I would have tried everything I could to get in touch with you or send you a PM saying, "I won't be here tonight, but I still want it."

So, I apologize for making it seem like I was wishy washy or just wasting everyone's time, as that wasn't my intention. I personally have never expected immediate response from people selling me something or buying something from me, because I understand they cannot be online or they have some place to be. Not because they told me they have to go somewhere, but that I've learned to expect it.

So again...I really am sorry for making you wait and for frustrating you with my inability to be here and answer, and for prompting this thread.

Originally Posted by steffib

Well, it is also not necessarily bad to give things a little bit of time. Not everybody is online all the time, and I believe the usual "time before moving on" is 24 hours for costumes. For those for whom bellydance is a hobby, these transactions often are not the highest priority in life and have to come after hungry children, yelling bosses, broken cars :-) And, speaking as a somebody who has the memory capacity of a housefly, sometimes people forget, despite the best intentions.

Good communication makes good transactions

In my last sell the buyer mentioned: "I'll be out for a couple of days, so don't wary if I don't email you back before Monday" or as for myself I have often said: "... it's a civic holyday here, post offices are closed, I won't be able to ship before (day name)" or "I need more time to find a proper box, don't want to "squoosh" the bra cups", etc. and don't forget "thanks for you patience"

If I may add a little pet peeve... If you a re-posting a costume purshase for any reason, please take a little more time to make a full add.

If you don't want to re-measure or re-write everything do a copy-paste from parts of the original thread (it's also nice to ask if the first seller agrees to the use her pics), please make a new complete informative thread. I find it a real pain when it says "click on this link for the original post" and it's brings me to a thread that says "click on my pics album" or my webpage" not to mention that the pics might have been deleted and I end up with 3 or 4 windows opened on my computer.

Just my 2 cents!

Sticking my nose in, despite my qualms about getting involved.

I just went and read the threads in question. Wow, quick turn around, and I don't see anything wrong with what Eden-eyes posted. Sure, she could have said that she would wait for confirmation, and that she would be back online later, but within the time frame it looked reasonable.

I agree with waiting for confirmation rather than just "I'll take it" and immediately sending money, because I've seen people all of a sudden pop back that the item was sold off-line or through PMs that we didn't see on the thread.

I agree with a previous poster that 24 h is a reasonable window for response. I think that moving something to the next in line at 3pm (or was it 6pm?) after a response at 11 am (that's 4 hours, only, or 7, during a US workday) was severe.

There was nothing involving 'days' of response time.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Moondances, if I have *agreed* I will pay $200 for x, then I don't expect to have to pay $208.

Sellers should pay their own Paypal fees and suck it up or charge $208 in the first place.

yes i agree with that, but everything should be said and agreed b4 hand and the detail posted on the thrtead what includes in the price and what not so the buyer will know what to expect to pay

Originally Posted by Teophania

Sticking my nose in, despite my qualms about getting involved...I agree with a previous poster that 24 h is a reasonable window for response. I think that moving something to the next in line at 3pm (or was it 6pm?) after a response at 11 am (that's 4 hours, only, or 7, during a US workday) was severe...There was nothing involving 'days' of response time.

I agree. I think, Ajaa, that you did try to follow up w/Eden-eyes and when you didn't get a response you moved on. That's fair. I think its a little extreme to flame someone in a thread with "some do not play with integrity" and "don't freakin' fart around!!! If we didn't need the money we wouldn't be posting the freakin item!"
The item sold in a pretty reasonable amount of time. Its not like you spent days or weeks haggling over the sale and actually lost buyers. If you want to provide criticism for swap meet etiquette, I think its more helpful do so in a way that is constructive and avoid the angry rants.

Good communication is the key.

Originally Posted by sarahshimmies

Maybe the initial buyer had second thoughts after being asked to send the money as a gift instead of a regular payment (after the deal was made)? I know I would.

was unaware that would make a difference, I just kind of followed suit when I bought things myself..................GOOD TO KNOW, thank you for the insight.

Originally Posted by ajaa

was unaware that would make a difference, I just kind of followed suit when I bought things myself..................GOOD TO KNOW, thank you for the insight.

OMG!!!!!! I have it, maybe in case you wanted a refund or was not happy with item - must be wow, the bleach from the hi-lights must be soaking in too deep

Originally Posted by MoondanceS

if the seller asks you to pay it as a gift in most cases it means she does not want to pay Paypal fees, so if you r worring about sending as a gift just add 4% to the price and pay it for goods

thank you for that, obviously I don't sell alot

Originally Posted by Christina K

I hate to break it to you, but charging the buyer for your paypal fees is against paypal policy. It's simply a cost of doing business, like processing credit cards with a merchant account. Raising the price of your item to cover ALL fees (shipping/handling/processing) is something a seller could consider, but stating that the buyer must pay the fees or charging less for someone who pays a method other than paypal because there are no fees could lose you your paypal privileges if discovered or reported.

Not an opinion really.... simple Paypal policy fact. Do with that information what you will.

Also, if you send the money as a "gift" for professional merchandise, it will look suspect when you then try to deduct that purchase for tax purposes. Just sayin'

thank you for your insight and thoughts as well Christina, it has been an educational experience :).........I did state plus paypal fees..........but am happy to know the paypal policy and appreciate the tip - I was unaware and as state before following "suit" as having been a BUYER wayyyyyy more than a seller

Wow. Good point, Christina. Do SELLERS know this? Because most post with items for sale, that I've been interested in - have said Buyers must pay Paypal fees. Not only does it make the items over priced at times, but is that really fair to buyers? I don't think so. We already have to pay high shipping rates.

Originally Posted by Christina K

I hate to break it to you, but charging the buyer for your paypal fees is against paypal policy. It's simply a cost of doing business, like processing credit cards with a merchant account. Raising the price of your item to cover ALL fees (shipping/handling/processing) is something a seller could consider, but stating that the buyer must pay the fees or charging less for someone who pays a method other than paypal because there are no fees could lose you your paypal privileges if discovered or reported.

Not an opinion really.... simple Paypal policy fact. Do with that information what you will.

Also, if you send the money as a "gift" for professional merchandise, it will look suspect when you then try to deduct that purchase for tax purposes. Just sayin'

Originally Posted by Cassis

Wow. Good point, Christina. Do SELLERS know this? Because most post with items for sale, that I've been interested in - have said Buyers must pay Paypal fees. Not only does it make the items over priced at times, but is that really fair to buyers? I don't think so. We already have to pay high shipping rates.

I didn't know either at first until it was pointed out to me by one of our event attendees. Sure am glad we started paying the fees ourselves because as our event has grown, we've gotten a lot more attention from paypal (when you go from about 7 months of relative inactivity to taking in a huge wad of cash in one day, they notice).

The paypal agreement is long, but it's in there somewhere. A targeted search can help you find it, but yeah... passing on the fees to the buyers (at least obviously or directly) is verboten.

Originally Posted by ajaa

OMG!!!!!! I have it, maybe in case you wanted a refund or was not happy with item - must be wow, the bleach from the hi-lights must be soaking in too deep

Yes, that is correct. If you buy something, pay for it as a gift, and then the seller either doesn't send the item, or the item is defective or not as described, then you as the buyer have no recourse. You are not protected by paypals buyer protection and you can't open a claim with your credit card company, because you've literally gifted the money.

And yes, this HAS happened, multiple times here on the swap page. If the transactions had been done as, well, transactions, then the sellers may have been forced to make things right, or in any case, the buyers would have recourse.

Originally Posted by Christina K

The paypal agreement is long, but it's in there somewhere. A targeted search can help you find it, but yeah... passing on the fees to the buyers (at least obviously or directly) is verboten.

Yes, but as someone pointed out, just build in all of your costs into your asking price, and there are no problems and no rules broken.

what SSIPES has said is very true, I highly recommend you don't send money as a 'gift'. When I first came to bhuz I took the habit to send money as a gift upon other dancers' request. I didn't take the time to get familiar with paypal policies so I pretty much got scammed by another dancer for $500. She had posted old pictures of a beautiful costume and what I got in the mail was a nightmare. The skirt was ripped with holes, burns and wax all over it. More than half the beads and beautiful details of the costume were not there. It had stains all over and smelled so bad I couldn't be near the box in which she mailed it. It was in such bad shape that the costume was not longer suitable for any type of gig. I contacted the dancer and she refused to answer my emails, then I posted all of the information and pictures on bhuz. Other dancers were outraged about her behavior and encouraged her to do the right thing and refund me the money. I contacted paypal and they said money sent as a 'gift' can not be refunded. The dancer who sold me the costume disappeared from bhuz, at least that's what it seemed like at that point or she just changed her profile=(. Anyways, lesson learned and I hope some of you take the time to read this and follow my advise.

WOW!!!! Lots of valuable info here. I have been fortunate I have not done a lot of transactions here I am fairly new but all the one's I have experienced have been excellent. I think there are more honest gals out there than not. I am sorrry some of you have had the bad experiences I am glad you have shared the info about gifting money through paypal etc. Good to know these things!!!

Originally Posted by anissayuz

WOW!!!! Lots of valuable info here. I have been fortunate I have not done a lot of transactions here I am fairly new but all the one's I have experienced have been excellent. I think there are more honest gals out there than not. I am sorrry some of you have had the bad experiences I am glad you have shared the info about gifting money through paypal etc. Good to know these things!!!

I have done the gift thing, but usually with people I know well and have done a lot of business with.

Originally Posted by ShoshannaQ

I have done the gift thing, but usually with people I know well and have done a lot of business with.

I totally agree with this, I'm guilty of doing the gift option as well, most of the time I find myself sending it as gift (I just did it a couple of days ago and 3 days before that), and so far I haven't had any problem, the dancers have been really honest and I have received really nice surprises!!!

On the other hand, the few times that I sent it as a payment I had a couple of bad surprises, the costumes have been in worse condition than described and I tried to get back to the sellers, and let them know their item was overpriced. But I don't take it any farther, I just suck it up :( and keep them on my naughty list

Lots of good info on this thread,.... thanks all!! If a bhuzzer asked me to "gift" I MIGHT do so if they agreed to send the item first, unless I know that person or have dealt with them many times over. That would mean the seller would have to trust me as much as I'd have to trust them.