Thread: Swap Meet "Rules"

Now that there is a complaint section as a companion to swap meet, we really need to establish agreed-upon guidelines that the community thinks are fair. Otherwise, different people may have different notions of what is fair and that could cause disagreement over whether a complaint is valid.

I'd say there's a difference between "rules" and "etiquette". Right now, I'd like to focus our thinking on rules.

A "rule", which is what I'm suggesting we define here, would be something that, if violated, would be grounds for posting a complaint on the complaint section. And if enough people complain about the same seller, violating the rule would be grounds for banning.

"Etiquette" would be recommendations (which are not enforced, except possibly for peer pressure) on how to make transactions as smooth as possible. An example of etiquette would be to include exact measurements for the costume you are selling in the very first message you post advertising that costume for sale. Although it could be good to develop community etiquette guidelines, I'd rather not use this thread to do it.

Here is a link to a thread on Classic Bhuz about swap meet etiquette:

http://ads.bhuz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26064

Here is a link to another thread on Classic Bhuz about swap meet etiquette.

http://ads.bhuz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24302

I would suggest that even if we have general rules (for example, "If you're going to pay by PayPal, do so within 48 hours of promising to buy the item"), it's still fine for individual buyers/sellers to negotiate an exception for a specific transaction.

Topics I would suggest addressing in "rules" include:

• Should a person who says, "I'll buy it" be held to it? Ie, if they back out of the transaction 2-3 days after saying they'll buy it, is that grounds for a complaint?
• How soon after promising to buy something should a paypal payment be sent?
• How soon after promising to buy something should a check or money order be sent?
• How long should a seller be allowed to wait for a check to clear before shipping the item?
• Within what lead time should a seller be required to respond to questions about order status?

What other topics might be appropriate to include in "rules"?

In reference to your first point of "Should a person who says, "I'll buy it" be held to it? Ie, if they back out of the transaction 2-3 days after saying they'll buy it, is that grounds for a complaint?"

I would suggest a basic rule of 'offer and acceptance' that confirms the sale.

Seller places add, potential buyer makes offer to buy, seller accepts offer. From that acceptance both have entered into a 'binding' agreement as stipulated by 'the rules'.

And yes, if a buyer or seller backs out after that point then that could be grounds for complaint. If a buyer posts/emails an "I'll buy it" then that should in all fairness be considered a genuine offer to the seller that will be binding if accepted.

Other topics that could be covered by a set of rules:

- Accurate representation of goods and condition of goods by sellers
- The seller's right to define their own sale conditions (e.g.: Ship US only, Payment to be sent within 24 hrs, First to post on bhuz is first in line)

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

Other topics that could be covered by a set of rules:

- Accurate representation of goods and condition of goods by sellers
- The seller's right to define their own sale conditions (e.g.: Ship US only, Payment to be sent within 24 hrs, First to post on bhuz is first in line)

Agree!
Also, only a seller can put their item on hold or mark sold - that should be a rule.

I have also heard many complaints about sellers not responding to emails after the sale when the buyer has concerns about something. Maybe people want to add that in as well.

well, here's the thing, who would enforce these? who would have the time? i can see banning someone, which isn't that difficult (or difficult to get around) but how would you "police" these?

Don't get me wrong, but ebay spends mucho dinero on making itself safe, and it ain't.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

Other topics that could be covered by a set of rules:
- The seller's right to define their own sale conditions (e.g.: Ship US only, Payment to be sent within 24 hrs, First to post on bhuz is first in line)

yes. the "rules" should be "unless otherwise stated by the seller."

except of course, true enforcement will be almost impossible. you can't do X number of complaints and you're out, because you have to allow the other party to state their case. then you get into she said/she said, and who's going to rule? if you've ever had a problem with an ebay transaction, you'll know that ebay's way of dealing with complaints seems to be to shrug its shoulders and ignore them, because really, how can you really adjudicate these spats?

probably better than banning (if only because more practicable) would be to say, This is the Bhuz community etiquette for buying and selling on Bhuz. If you don't play by the rules [something to the effect of, it'll piss people off and you won't be welcome]. that is, instead of a threat of a ban, let people know their standing on bhuz will be affected. anyone who comes on deliberately to rip people off is going to laugh at the threat of a ban, but 'no one will play with you' might get the casual violator to clean up her act.

even if there is no "or else", it's a good idea to at least have "this is what you're expected to do" just so we all know what's expected of us.

Originally Posted by kina

well, here's the thing, who would enforce these? who would have the time? i can see banning someone, which isn't that difficult (or difficult to get around) but how would you "police" these?

Don't get me wrong, but ebay spends mucho dinero on making itself safe, and it ain't.

Bhuz isn't ebay and it's not trying to be. The "rules" are there to agree what sort of behaviour is acceptable, so that when people behave unacceptably, there are proper verifiable grounds for Naming & Shaming in the Complaints Forum.

I absolutely agree, and wouldn't buy from them. My point however, is that if you have this set of rules, there will be people who expect more punitive action to be taken. If you have a set of rules, and there is no enforcement, what's the point? Ebay is and it's enforcement is laughable.

Bhuz isn't set up to enforce. I buy and sell all the time on here. I will name someone who has ripped me off, and hope that no one feels that I have ripped THEM off. For someone like me, who is a part of the community, then name and shame will have some meaning. For others, like the one recently posted on the complaints thread, there isn't all that much meaning, as they weren't active members of the commmunity to begin with.

But verifiable isn't going to happen without a framework where an independent party can go in and look at all transactions, can check for payment, track shipping etc.

I'm wondering what the legal ramification for bhuz is if they adopt a policy aroudn this? right now, it's at your own risk, but if you have a framework, does that increas bhuz's liablity?

Kina, I think you're missing the point. Bhuz doesn't aspire to be an online shopping mall for belly dancers. It's a community, which happens to have buying and selling as just one part of a larger system. Anybody who expects bhuz to tightly regulate buying and selling has the wrong expectations.

People asked for a way to complain about buyers/sellers who are problematic. Rosey obliged by providing it. However...

Sometimes transactions go bad because people had differing expectations of what constitutes acceptable behavior. Rather than have lots of complaints arise because a seller expected payment in 24 hours and a buyer thought it was okay to wait a week before paying, the rules will say, "This is the default expectation, though individuals involved in a particular transcation may agree on something different at their discretion." Establishing such a common expectation is needed if you're going to have a complaint process so that everyone knows what's considered a reasonable complaint versus not.

I think it is good to have rules, and expectations set forth. Sometimes people are inexperienced in dealing with online shopping, so now they would know.

I think in a community it does count if someone's name is tainted because of behavor. If I know someone has been unfair with others I would less likely to buy from them.

As far as payment: I think if someone commits to buy something they must have the money available right away. Therefore if I send an email / post promising the seller that I buy, I should be able to send payment right away, but definitely within 24 hours. If I am waiting for a paycheck in 5 days, then I need to communicate it to the buyer beforehand.
When I buy something on Ebay I always pay right away. Why wait? I either have the money or I don't. If I don't, I shouldn't commit to buy - simple as that.

just my opinion :)
Marianna

honestly, i don't think we really need these rules. we are for the most part a responsible community of buyers and sellers. the complaints forum should be a good enough place for complaints, and warnings from members of the community. i don't think it's necessary to institute a set of "rules". i think it should be up to the user's discretion what their terms are...ie. if i want to sell something, and someone says put it on hold for me, it should be up to me when and how i release that hold. i personally release it after 24 hours is i don't get payment or hear back from someone because i feel it's unfair to the others in line to wait for someone who's not serious...

i really think these rules are too much. if you want a rule, your rule should be "set your terms within your listing, including holds, final sale, shipping, etc..." or something like that.

I am reading this thread wondering why this is an issue. I use the bhuz swap pages often to buy and sell, and am also a fairly active member of the discussion groups. I have never (knock wood) had a problem, and to the best of my knowledge have never been a problem.

It seems to me that we already have the 'name 'em and shame 'em' concept in place. Someone who is here to rip us off is not going to get too far with too many of us, because we *will* talk about it!

Creating rules seems like something that could create more problems, not solve ones (ones that don't exist on any regular basis that I am aware of). Sellers can put anything they want in their listings, and many do (first to email me gets it, first to reply here gets it, no returns, money order only, etc.).

Finally, the rules that are established are not actually going to be endorsed, agreed to, or read by everyone. Let's be honest. So then do we play an 'ignorance is no excuse in the name of the law' card and ask Rosey to ban someone, or mock them in complaints?

I vote for the status quo on this one.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Kina, I think you're missing the point. Bhuz doesn't aspire to be an online shopping mall for belly dancers. It's a community, which happens to have buying and selling as just one part of a larger system. Anybody who expects bhuz to tightly regulate buying and selling has the wrong expectations.

People asked for a way to complain about buyers/sellers who are problematic. Rosey obliged by providing it. However...

Sometimes transactions go bad because people had differing expectations of what constitutes acceptable behavior. Rather than have lots of complaints arise because a seller expected payment in 24 hours and a buyer thought it was okay to wait a week before paying, the rules will say, "This is the default expectation, though individuals involved in a particular transcation may agree on something different at their discretion." Establishing such a common expectation is needed if you're going to have a complaint process so that everyone knows what's considered a reasonable complaint versus not.

Thank Shira, I do understand that.

However, if we are asking Bhuz to adopt this, then we are investing it with the power to do so, and potentially putting the site at risk. That's it.

Envision the scenario, someone comes onto bhuz, says, look, shopping! buys something. Potentially isn't aware that they are on their own in this, and finds the rules section. Complains to the administrator, administrator says, ok, bann in place. Person who was buying says, yes, but what about my money? I'm concerned that if we have bhuz identified with the rules, then it places an expectation on bhuz to enforce the rules, which implies some liability.

That's all.

I agree that there should be an accepted code of conduct, but we really have no ability to enforce it.

Originally Posted by kina

Envision the scenario, someone comes onto bhuz, says, look, shopping! buys something. Potentially isn't aware that they are on their own in this, and finds the rules section. Complains to the administrator, administrator says, ok, bann in place. Person who was buying says, yes, but what about my money? I'm concerned that if we have bhuz identified with the rules, then it places an expectation on bhuz to enforce the rules, which implies some liability.

That's all.

Well that's easy- the first rule of Bhuz Swap Meet is "Bhuz is not responsible for any of this- you buy & sell at your own risk- check out the complaints page for warnings against dodgy dealers"

(Man I so wanted to write, the first rule of Bhuz Swap Meet is You do not talk about Bhuz Swap Meet ..g.: )

Originally Posted by beafarhana

Well that's easy- the first rule of Bhuz Swap Meet is "Bhuz is not responsible for any of this- you buy & sell at your own risk- check out the complaints page for warnings against dodgy dealers"

(Man I so wanted to write, the first rule of Bhuz Swap Meet is You do not talk about Bhuz Swap Meet ..g.: )

YES!!! perfect

..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

I can't see how you can enforce "rules".
I have had I hope 3 "sales" and a purchase recently and the buyers/seller and I PM'ed each other, kept in touch. I answered all questions as promptly as I could as did they respond. It was great to deal with these ladies. I hope they like their goods ..they've all got posted!!
We all abode by etiquette, in other words it was a delight to deal with people with good manners.
As to the reverse I just won't either buy or sell with one Bhuzzer as she p$ssed me about something wicked. That is the choice we have.
Rules..mmmmm..difficult.

If the Bhuzzer is a trader not just an individual selling and buying others' costumes etc and is lacking in service, uncommunicative, gives poor value then they should be named and shamed.

I agree that using the Swap Meet pages should be "at your own risk" in most cases...

But wasn't there a discussion on the old Bhuz about vendors using the SM to advertise their stores, etc? Shouldn't this be reserved for the "Product News" forum? I would prefer it if there was a separation between individuals selling their stuff and vendors posting advertisements...

Originally Posted by perizaad

I agree that using the Swap Meet pages should be "at your own risk" in most cases...

But wasn't there a discussion on the old Bhuz about vendors using the SM to advertise their stores, etc? Shouldn't this be reserved for the "Product News" forum? I would prefer it if there was a separation between individuals selling their stuff and vendors posting advertisements...

I think so too.

Originally Posted by perizaad

I agree that using the Swap Meet pages should be "at your own risk" in most cases...

But wasn't there a discussion on the old Bhuz about vendors using the SM to advertise their stores, etc? Shouldn't this be reserved for the "Product News" forum? I would prefer it if there was a separation between individuals selling their stuff and vendors posting advertisements...

ya know it says that right in the forum description, also says that commercial postings will be deleted, though i haven't seen that actually happen. why not put up a new forum just for those vendors?

Yes, Rosey, Please give vendors their own forum. I don't want to be looking at a hundred posts from vendors. I want to buy from my dance "sisters" not vendors on the swap meet page.....

Shira, will there be a page that clearly outline the swap meet rules in a short, concise way? Like a final (subject to updates), official rules page with bullet points- so that a poster doesn't have to sort through a ton of old threads about the subject.

Originally Posted by jawahir

ya know it says that right in the forum description, also says that commercial postings will be deleted, though i haven't seen that actually happen. why not put up a new forum just for those vendors?

Originally Posted by *maria*

Yes, Rosey, Please give vendors their own forum. I don't want to be looking at a hundred posts from vendors. I want to buy from my dance "sisters" not vendors on the swap meet page.....

Vendors, or regular store owners, are welcome to buy advertising, and many do. We appreciate their support and hope that BHUZers shop at our advertisers.

You won't be seeing a forum for vendors, because BHUZ has to eat! Our wonderful advertisers help us pay the bills, so we stick to the guidelines that are stated on the Forum and the Advertise page. Commercial enterprises must buy advertising; we won't last long if some get a free ride while others have to pay. If you see posts that are from commercial businesses that are taking advantage of the Swap Meet, please send me a PM - click on my avatar.

We love the Swap Meet, an amazing, democratic, pretty much self-policing, free way for bellydancers to replenish their closets, and we want to keep it commercial free.

Originally Posted by gotraqs

Shira, will there be a page that clearly outline the swap meet rules in a short, concise way? Like a final (subject to updates), official rules page with bullet points- so that a poster doesn't have to sort through a ton of old threads about the subject.

That's the goal! ,r:;

From what I have seen on this thread, there's not much support for the concept of "rules", though I imagine there would be support for "recommendations".

I'm preparing to create a draft of "recommendations for buyers" and "recommendations for sellers", positioning these documents as "you're free to arrange mutually agreeable exceptions with the other party".

Thanks Shira! that's a big undertaking - thank you so much!

What is the general consensus on this situation: person says she's interested and asks a few questions, but doesn't commit. Another buyer comes along who is ready to commit, do you give the first one dibs or sell to the second one without contacting the first one. I feel better about letting the first one know, but fishing for info and buying are pretty different things.

Originally Posted by s1dur1_sab1tu

What is the general consensus on this situation: person says she's interested and asks a few questions, but doesn't commit. Another buyer comes along who is ready to commit, do you give the first one dibs or sell to the second one without contacting the first one. I feel better about letting the first one know, but fishing for info and buying are pretty different things.

I say that is up to the seller.... IMO, it's like going to a store, asking questions, then someone walks in 5 minutes later and buys it.

Originally Posted by s1dur1_sab1tu

What is the general consensus on this situation: person says she's interested and asks a few questions, but doesn't commit. Another buyer comes along who is ready to commit, do you give the first one dibs or sell to the second one without contacting the first one. I feel better about letting the first one know, but fishing for info and buying are pretty different things.

If it were me, I'd sell to the person who is ready to pay me money. I'd politely tell the first person that I appreciated their interest, but I couldn't wait any longer for them to make a decision. I wouldn't feel the need to warn them before promising the item to the second person - if their interest was strong, they would have paid me already.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

If it were me, I'd sell to the person who is ready to pay me money. I'd politely tell the first person that I appreciated their interest, but I couldn't wait any longer for them to make a decision. I wouldn't feel the need to warn them before promising the item to the second person - if their interest was strong, they would have paid me already.

I agree, I've held thing answering tons of questions and the person decides they don't want it. I'll sell to the first who commits to buy.