Thread: Is negotiation undercutting?

OK, so I know you all have very strong opinions about undercutting, but I have a question about how that works with negotiation...

Say you have your prices listed on your site--and they are approximately the same as the other dancers in your area. Someone contacts you for a gig and you are available and would like to take it...but the person wants to negotiate. How much is appropriate?

I would think you'd want to have some wiggle room in your pricing...but how much is too much...At what point does negotiation become undercutting...

Please keep in mind that this is a hypothetical situation. This has not happened to me, nor am I referring to someone else.

Thanks!

among the gigging dancers in seattle, first we all agreed on a minimum fee to charge. then we all agreed on specific criteria for going below that rate. for 'friends and family' or repeat clients, we will give a 10% discount, if they ask, and we want to. 10% to a client's ears sounds like a good deal, while in reality that's only about $15 so we dancers don't lose much. otherwise, if people give us the 'ooh, that's more that I was expecting to pay' bit, I'll say gosh, I'm really sorry, but I can't go below that fee or the other dancers in town will ride me out of town on a rail. :)

beyond that we agreed on times we will offer to dance for less - haflas, charities, etc. - with the understanding that we will only dance for less if we *want* to, never because we feel coerced.

if you find you're experiencing clients wanting to negotiate a lot, you can raise your fees so you can bargain down to your preferred minimum. so, if you want to make $150, charge $170 and reluctantly offer to knock $20 off the price.

The prices I have listed on my site are higher than the current minimum in my area. That way I have wiggle room before I even begin to touch the minimum rate.

However, I've found that most cases I don't have to negotiate, and so I regularly make at least $50-$75 more than the local minimum.

I've got prices up on my website that are slightly higher than average here. I have wiggle room but I prefer not to use it.
Sometimes I have a feeling people are going to try to negotiate- then I quote higher, honestly. If someone really wants to negotiate I never go more than 10% lower anyway.
How lower can one go without undercutting?
Honestly I feel in the DC area we have a "minimum" that has been discussed on the boards. Anything below the minimum is undercutting.
We also have actual typical rates of many dancers- which is higher than minimum, so there is wiggle room from there.
We have higher tiers of rates as well, which have more wiggle room if one chooses to use it.

I don't negotiate. I'm not good at it, so I don't want to be on the loosing end of a negotition when we are talking about my fees!! (I'm a lawyer who can't negotiate - go figure!).

I don't like haggling over the price of my show, anyway. I think it's weird and creepy - I expect to haggle somewhere like a flea market, not when talking about my job. I am a human performing a service, not a flea market find!!

everything mentioned is correct.......it may mean updating your prices on your website by raising them a bit, so you can 'wiggle' in good conscience with personal/community minimums as the bottom line in mind...........you'd be surprised, tho there will be SOME who will try to haggle, you'd may be pleased at how many will pay your 'higher' fee without blinking or after a day or thought, just call and say, 'ok, so, it starts at .............'

as samirashuruk mentioned, many dancers in our area quote $25-$50 higher (or more) than the set community minimum.............and GET it with little or NO haggling...........it's a matter of your own value, and where you would discount if you so wish............friends, family, a group you have a soft spot in your heart for are good discount possibilities, but even THEY would understand you standing your ground, if the discount was within reason, and they understand that............

Yet another vote for a $50 "cushion". That way, you can shave a little off the top and still get what you're worth, and the client still feels like they're getting something for free. I really hate to beat a dead horse, but all it takes to jeopardize the going rate is for a small number of dancers to accept a little less once in awhile. (This is not including discounts for repeat customers, students, or family/friends).

I prefer not to negotiate, though, because knocking $50 off at the drop of the hat could make the client feel as though they have the "one-up," which could open the door to further annoying micromanaging behavior. (i.e. "Will you ride onstage on a Siberian tiger? What color will you paint your toenails? Will you feed grapes to the birthday boy? Oh yeah, and about that tiger, would you be so kind as to supply it yourself? My budget's kinda tight, kthanx.") I prefer to kindly-but-firmly show 'em who's boss from day one ..l;,

I also agree with Daniela. There is something very odd about the nature of haggling over services, especially dance. If they want you badly enough to book you for a party, they should hold you in high enough regards to pay your full rate without a protest.

Good luck!

Lisa

For your negotiation, just need to consider what your 'best alternative to a negotiated agreement is' (BATNA) - for many dancers, they would prefer not to work than to take a gig lower than X rate. This is where undercutting comes in, if your client knows that their 'BATNA' is to get someone up the road who does it for 50% less, then the client will use this in the negotiation. BATNA is what is going on in the clients head when negotiating with you, and doesn't need to be verbalised. What clients tell you are "tactics". You are the stronger party if you know your minimum and where you will or won't be negotiated down to.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

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I also agree with Daniela. There is something very odd about the nature of haggling over services, especially dance. If they want you badly enough to book you for a party, they should hold you in high enough regards to pay your full rate without a protest.
Good luck!
Lisa

I agree with this, but I also try to keep in mind that often times we are dealing with cultures that haggle all the time. For them it's part of the process and sometimes even enjoyable sport. If padding the price and then maybe considering lowering it after some discussion enriches the experience for them- so be it. I let them know I'm doing them a favor, though, which doesn't lead to micromanagement so much in my experience.
And Bellydanceing Caroline- you are absolutely right. Negotiating only works for us when we are willing to turn down/walk away from a gig.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I agree with this, but I also try to keep in mind that often times we are dealing with cultures that haggle all the time. For them it's part of the process and sometimes even enjoyable sport.

That's exactly why I don't do it -because they would totally win all the time!!! I'm so bad at it and they are so good at it - it's a loosing situation on my end!,f::

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

That's exactly why I don't do it -because they would totally win all the time!!! I'm so bad at it and they are so good at it - it's a loosing situation on my end!,f::

well, not all the time, in a venue i negotiated, i won that round, i knew i had it when he named an ODD lower price with a half grin, i stuck to my price, and he said 'done', that rate is still in place at that venue. for some, it IS sport, not always about winning.............and it's not just arabic people, some europeans do it and it's still alive and well in the fabric district in NY.......just know your bottom line and stick to it...........the good hagglers know when to stop.............

it was actually a fun haggle...g.: , but i don't know if i could have been as successful, or have the guts to try if i hadn't seen my mom doing it with the merchants at the fabric district (she spoke fluent yiddish ) and do it successfully........

I try to avoid "negotiating" with clients. With the exception of the aforementioned occasional cultural issue, I generally just find/feel it is a much better practice to quote a client a fair and accurate price for what it is you are going to give them...even if that price may vary slightly depending on specific factors. This is one reason I *don't* publish my rates on my website. Rather than having someone call me and assume a rate (then surprise me with weird details or try to negotiate me down), I want to talk to the individual and be sure I understand exactly what they need/are asking be sure I hear their reaction to the rate and am able to explain it as needed (rather than just have them read it on the web and go from there.)

My rates are higher than the low end some gigging dancers charge in my area, but they're well in line with the "norm." In the event I get the sense from a caller that he/she is going to be a serious haggler, I may start out higher than *my* normal rate so that there is room to haggle if need be or for me to be "benevolent" and give them a break (by dropping down to my normal rate, not the lower rate in the area.) But, if there's a high PIA factor or other reason for the bump...I'll stick to a rate that is *higher* than my normal rate.

There are occasions I will give a rate a little lower than my "normal," but it's still in the acceptable range locally, and it's only for a *very* narrowly defined set of reasons, usually having to do with the customer/customer experience. It's at my discretion to give/offer, though, not the customer's to haggle.

One negotiation tactic thing that I think at the very least falls into an icky area: dropping your rate below the rate you know most dancers are willing to accept and below what you usually ask for because you learn the client is contacting other dancers to get rates/info too, to ensure that you get the gig. I mean, not only does it lower the caller's sense of the "normal" rate, c'mon--at that point, you're undercutting yourself too....

I wouldn't recommend negotiating if you've posted going rate for your area -- it is undercutting, just don't do it unfortunately, that does mean you'll have to walk away every now & then. If you want to be able to negotiate you need to raise your listed rate. That said, I'm not really an advocate of rate-negotiation for one-time gigs unless it is for family/friends. It makes much more sense to me to find out who the client is and what he/she wants before you quote. You'd be all ..cr.: if you quoted $150 then pull up to the Biltmore to discover Trump Industries rented it for the day and an assistant hired you! Great story, yes, but you know they have paid more!