Thread: Event sponsor questions...

1) If you're sponsoring a workshop with a show, where generally only dancers who are participating in the workshop will be performing, do you hold your own students to that same requirement? Or do you let your own higher-level students or troupe members dance in group numbers even if they're not attending the event?

2) What are typical vending fees for a small workshop? (Let's say fewer than 50 expected participants)

Thanks!

I would say yes to #1. Assuming you don't want The Show That Never Dies, you have a limited amount of slots available. I have only done two events, but both times I had dancers in the show on Saturday who were only taking the Sunday class. It was noticed and pointed out to me each time.

Say you have two students who are only mildly interested in the seminar but both want to perform. Dancer A attends the workshop because that's the thing to do, and later finds out that Dancer B performed but didn't pay. Oh look, here comes drama potential. You favor Dancer A, it's not fair, etc. Even worse, I know that you encourage your students to take outside workshops but don't always have a lot of takers. If you can't get them to broaden their horizons by dangling the performance carrot then how will you do it? I know you want them all to have as many performance opportunities as possible, but I think you are opening a big can of yuck if people can dance without taking the seminar.

I won't even comment on #2 since I am directly involved. ..g.:

Andrea, I know you've been associated with more than one studio in your dance career -- did they all do it the same way? The sponsor's students don't dance in group numbers unless they're taking the workshop?

It makes my life easier if I can state that this is The Way It's Done and I'm not just being a big meanie.

My troupe-level students will be offered solo spots if they take the workshop, but I'm wondering about a group number for the level 3s or the level 4s.

Or maybe I'll just assume the level 3s aren't ready for this and let them wait for my student show...it's only a few months away. I'd like to get them excited about the weekend, but maybe I should just talk up the workshop and the chance to SEE the show.

I have a totally different philosophy about shows.

The people who get slots are the ones that I think will add to and improve our shows. The invitations to be in the show are independent of whether or not they attend the workshop.

Before everyone jumps my ass for daring to be different, understand that in my niche, shows are not solely or even mostly for the dancers. The shows subsidize the workshop and usually float the entire event. We cannot attract a huge crowd of workshop attendees, but we are able to attract GP audiences of 200+ to our shows. We have a repeat fan base on campus and in our town because the shows are reasonably good and not too long. We balance student performance opportunities with advanced/pro dancers.

In the case of my own students, whether or not they got a solo slot in a show would depend on whether they could show me a well-rehearsed, culturally-appropriate solo ahead of time and accept coaching and suggestions for improvement, not whether or not they took the workshop. The audience doesn't care which dancers attended the workshop, they care how good the dance is.

Originally Posted by Andrea2

I have only done two events, but both times I had dancers in the show on Saturday who were only taking the Sunday class. It was noticed and pointed out to me each time.

Andrea, I think you have the right to run your events the way you want. What's the difference if some performers take the Sat workshop and not the Sun., or the Sun. only and not the Sat? Why would someone else care? Its YOUR event.

Sedonia

I don't think my students/troupe members would expect preferential treatment. Hopefully my students/troupe members would be excited about my choice of workshop instructor and want to take the workshop.

That is such a hard one to balance. I require at least half of my troupe that will be performing (we are 13) take the sponsor's workshop if we do a troupe number in the show. Some may not be able to attend the workshop due to their work schedule, but many can, and those that can will help the others qualify to perform in the show. I feel that the sponsor has put her financial ass in the wind, and my troupe wont be the ones who leave her hanging it out to dry. You wanna play..you gotta pay. I would also expect the event organizer to contact the performers and troupes who she feels can best add to the show and give them first option to attend the workshop and qualify to perform. When I was a noob, I certainly would not have expected to dance just cause I took instruction at a workshop.

I agree with Sedonia that the performers in the show should be chosen according to who will provide good entertainment for the audience. If this is done, then it will be possible to attract the general public to the shows.

In contrast, if the show's content seems to be nothing more than a recital of area students, it won't be possible to build a following from among the general public for future events. The worst are ones that go on for more than 2 hours, with almost no professional performers in the mix. I'm happy to support students at haflas, but I feel seminar shows should offer a more professional level of dancing. People are paying for admission - don't they deserve to get their money's worth? And isn't it valid to expect dancers to earn the right to perform in a show by attaining a certain level of skill and polish? Also, wouldn't it be a sign of respect for the visiting instructor to feature a high quality show in her honor?

And speaking of respect for the visiting instructor...

Isn't it a little disrespectful toward the visiting instructor to skip the workshop but then want the glory of performing in the show? Isn't it effectively saying, "I can't be bothered to learn what you came here to teach, but I'm going to use your visit to our town as an excuse to grab my share of attention"?

Originally Posted by ssipes

Andrea, I think you have the right to run your events the way you want. What's the difference if some performers take the Sat workshop and not the Sun., or the Sun. only and not the Sat? Why would someone else care? Its YOUR event.

Sedonia

My thoughts exactly, Sedonia! I was surprised that anyone would notice, much less bring it up to me. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter which day they take. The seminar's subject matter and the dancer's schedules have to be taken into consideration.

Andrea, I know you've been associated with more than one studio in your dance career -- did they all do it the same way? The sponsor's students don't dance in group numbers unless they're taking the workshop?

Given my complete cluelessness then and my advanced case of CRS now, I really don't remember how it was done at the first studio. I was such a baby dancer doing group numbers. I do think there was at least one that I didn't take the seminar, though. None of that was really explained to me. One way to make it easier for students to take the class is to allow them to do a half day and still be eligible for performing. With the way this seminar is set up that shoud be really easy to do.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

And speaking of respect for the visiting instructor...

Isn't it a little disrespectful toward the visiting instructor to skip the workshop but then want the glory of performing in the show? Isn't it effectively saying, "I can't be bothered to learn what you came here to teach, but I'm going to use your visit to our town as an excuse to grab my share of attention"?

This is how it's usually seen in our area, and why locally it's expected that you will take the workshop if you're going to dance in the show.

One local troupe director recently covered both bases by sending out an invitation to perform (alone or with my troupe) and one line on the invitation said something like "Out of respect for the instructor, it is expected that all performers will attend at least one workshop." Maybe I'll do that.

Hmmmmm... and maybe a handout or a speech for my students, explaining the local etiquette, s in order. There has been at least one misunderstanding in the past, and it would probably help them if I talk about it.

Originally Posted by Andrea2

I won't even comment on #2 since I am directly involved. ..g.:

..l;, Sadly, the only two event organizers I'm really friendly with locally who might be able to give me a clue are both potential vendors for this event. ,f::

Originally Posted by ssipes

The people who get slots are the ones that I think will add to and improve our shows. The invitations to be in the show are independent of whether or not they attend the workshop.

This is intriguing, and I'd like to know who else does it this way.

Shira pointed out that:

if the show's content seems to be nothing more than a recital of area students, it won't be possible to build a following from among the general public for future events...I'm happy to support students at haflas, but I feel seminar shows should offer a more professional level of dancing.

I agree! I feel seminar shows in our area suffer from this "quasi-hafla" type of presentation, and it would clearly help organizers and the dance in general to get more GP bodies in seats for a good quality show. So this makes me wonder whether Sedonia has hit upon a viable solution.

Nisaa

I know from talking to dancers in other cities that the traditions differ. In some areas, high-profile dancers are HIRED to perform in workshop shows.

I've sponsoired a numer of workshops of different "types". My general rule is: no workshop, no perform. As Shira points out, it's disrespectful. It's also disrespectful of the sponsor, who is probably paying large amounts of money to have an istructor come in and teach. I'm not doing this for your glory, I'm doing it so the local group can learn from a top teacher!

I have always made exceptions: one year, a well known dancer from an hour away couldn't commit to the workshop for a good reason. I told her to come if she could and bring a costume. But, the workshop only is a fairly standard rule.

This year, I'm doing a smaller workshop/festival and the show is seperate. It's invitation only, but everyone coming is a pro and they'll WANT to take workshops. And, maybe that's a difference. Long timers, pros, and so forth, no what you're doing and want to participate. Maybe education is needed?

I tend to feel this way: I am paying a headliner to perform. That makes ONE star and you are not it. I have diva issues.

As to the vendors, that totally depends on the venue. I charge a flat fee, allow/expect that the vendors will want to participate in the workshop, and encourage them to perform. If the turnout is small, I may waive the fee, but that's between me and them. Once we had a quite small event and a vendor from several states away came up as a personal favor. She wasn't charged.

We are in a small city, many hours away from an urban center; the vendors are a major draw. I usually have a night before for seting up the vendors, and we've turned it into a potluck dinner, get together for everyone. I dont' charge at the door for shopping, but I do politely request that everyone AT LEAST purchase a show ticket to defray my expenses.

Kitty

I understand the point about respect to the workshop instructor, but frankly, isn't it also disrespectful to a workshop instructor to put on an amateurish barely-more-than-a-hafla type of show in his/her honor, with him/her as the headliner? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Also, I feel like the show itself is a learning opportunity for students because it offers an opportunity for students to see the best of what this dance can be. When students never see anything OTHER than student-level dancing, they have no objective understanding of what it means to be a real professional in this dance form. Honestly, in my area, I feel it's because students frequently form the bulk of seminar shows that they start to feel that they are "ready to go" as far as professional performing.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I have a totally different philosophy about shows.

The people who get slots are the ones that I think will add to and improve our shows. The invitations to be in the show are independent of whether or not they attend the workshop.

Before everyone jumps my ass for daring to be different, understand that in my niche, shows are not solely or even mostly for the dancers. The shows subsidize the workshop and usually float the entire event. We cannot attract a huge crowd of workshop attendees, but we are able to attract GP audiences of 200+ to our shows. We have a repeat fan base on campus and in our town because the shows are reasonably good and not too long. We balance student performance opportunities with advanced/pro dancers.

In the case of my own students, whether or not they got a solo slot in a show would depend on whether they could show me a well-rehearsed, culturally-appropriate solo ahead of time and accept coaching and suggestions for improvement, not whether or not they took the workshop. The audience doesn't care which dancers attended the workshop, they care how good the dance is.

They can jump on my ass, too, because this is how I run my events. The performers in the show are by my invitation only, and the show is open to the GP. I'll often hold a few slots open to see which of the out of state instructors might be attending - or I'll email them and ask if they're coming and would they like to perform - but workshop attendance is not a requirement. I do ask the performers to please promote the event to their students as the students are the target participants for most workshops. (Master classes are a separate issue.) And I feel this is respecting the guest instructor by filling up the workshops with eager and attentive participants. I have not had the experience of someone questioning my way of doing things, but I know other event organizers in this area have been questioned. And if my troupe is asked to perform and only attendess can be in the show, then we'll respect the rules of the organizer. But for my events, my philosophy is "My event, my money, my rules." And why would anyone feel they have the right to question that? Don't like my rules? Run your own event. And we'll miss you at mine. (I know, I'm a diva.)

As for vendors, I charge by the table or rack. I know how much space I have available, and how many tables/racks I can comfortably accommodate. I don't require they buy a minimum number of tables, and I charge a fee depending on how many participants I anticipate for the workshops. (I've had one vendor tell me I don't charge enough!) And I invite the vendors that I want to have first. I try to have a mix so that they're not competing with each other and selling the same coin belts and hip scarves, etc. As I receive replies and if there is room available, I'll open it up to other vendors who have asked about space.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I understand the point about respect to the workshop instructor, but frankly, isn't it also disrespectful to a workshop instructor to put on an amateurish barely-more-than-a-hafla type of show in his/her honor, with him/her as the headliner? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Also, I feel like the show itself is a learning opportunity for students because it offers an opportunity for students to see the best of what this dance can be. When students never see anything OTHER than student-level dancing, they have no objective understanding of what it means to be a real professional in this dance form. Honestly, in my area, I feel it's because students frequently form the bulk of seminar shows that they start to feel that they are "ready to go" as far as professional performing.

WELL SAID, Nisaa


Lauren_ : might that be a good idea to go to see few such events before organizing one yourself ?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I know from talking to dancers in other cities that the traditions differ.

Lauren, I see no reason to stick to "traditions" re workshop shows, if you have some other idea to try.

Why must there be only one way to do something? Your friends from Carbondale will not shun you because you dare to try something different.

In some areas, high-profile dancers are HIRED to perform in workshop shows.

What a radical and great idea!..g.:

Sedonia

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I understand the point about respect to the workshop instructor, but frankly, isn't it also disrespectful to a workshop instructor to put on an amateurish barely-more-than-a-hafla type of show in his/her honor, with him/her as the headliner? I'm just thinking out loud here.

Also, I feel like the show itself is a learning opportunity for students because it offers an opportunity for students to see the best of what this dance can be. When students never see anything OTHER than student-level dancing, they have no objective understanding of what it means to be a real professional in this dance form. Honestly, in my area, I feel it's because students frequently form the bulk of seminar shows that they start to feel that they are "ready to go" as far as professional performing.

Thanks everyone. This is all really helping to solidify my thought process.

I still don't have any idea what a typical rate for vending might be. Please, please PM me or e-mail me (lauren AT lotus-arts DOT net) if you have info but don't want to publicly share.

Originally Posted by Michaela

Lauren_ : might that be a good idea to go to see few such events before organizing one yourself ?

Michaela, I agree, that's an absolute must!! I attended dozens of events in my own area and across the country before I started producing events-- as an audience member, as a soloist, as a troupe director and as the workshop instructor/headliner. Each point of view is different and you're so right, it all helps!

Lauren,
Whatever you end up deciding, just look at it this way: it is YOUR event, and YOU can set the rules. And...since you are a relatively new event producer in our "scene", you have a chance to shake the locals out of the "this is the way we always do it" mentality.

Anyway, good luck...the event will be great!
Nisaa

I think that everyone has chipped in with some great perspectives. We also are carefully selecting those who are performing in the 2 shows at the Vegas Intensive this year. The number one priority is a GREAT & DIVERSE show. So there are many many factors we take into consideration. We want a wide variety of styles and performers.

At a certain point, we also look at those who are participating as workshop attendees. If there are 2 possible candidates with all factors being basically equal (oriental style, pro/semi-pro level, great costuming & music, entertaining, etc.) and one of them is taking workshops and the other one isn't...well, then, the one who is supporting the event gets the slot.

It isn't a requirement, but it does tip the scale in their favor.

I also have a committee that chooses the performers so I'm not the only "bad guy". And sometimes I get out-voted.

As far as the vendor question...

How much space do you have & how many vendors to you plan on having there? That would make a difference. If you are only going to have 1 or 2 vendors for "exclusive" spots, I might charge more than if you have 3 or more vendors.

Try to realistically project how much each vendor could make at your event. With only 50 people there, you really don't want to have too many vendors because it is less likely they could make any money.

I'm just going to throw this out there. I may be completely off-base, but if I had only 2 vendors, I'd charge $20/table. If there were 3 or more, I'd charge $10 or $15/table. But I want to qualify that it really depends on many other factors.

Also, if you really have no clue what would be fair to the vendors, and how much they could realistically sell...then ask them if they might be open to a percentage of sales. That way they only pay if they sell stuff. That would depend on a pretty decent level of trust, but it could be a win/win for both you and the vendors if it ends up being a slow sales day.

Thanks a lot, Samira!

There will only be two vendors there as far as I know so far (plus -- maybe -- Kimahri's Eye Kandy). I think I'll just keep it cheap, but ask them to pay for any workshops they want to take since workshop space is limited.

I'm leaning toward inviting performers, but with the caveat that they need to participate in a workshop out of courtesy to the visiting instructor. Then if others contact me and want to dance, it'll be on a space-available basis.

As for my own troupe members participating in the group number... I'll take it on a case-by-case basis.

I'm coming to this pretty late, but here goes anyway: approaching the show as a halfa for the workshop attendees and approaching it as a by-invitation gala show of great dancers both have their pros and cons.

However, while I woul be proud to be invited to be a guest artist, I would not be thrilled to be asked to do it for free if admission were being charged. Maybe a middle ground would be to do the invitations from among people who are attending the workshop?

In the one case where I was invited, I took the workshop, so it was moot. :)