Thread: Discussing business skills - how to do it?

This was inspired by the thread about a certain over-the-top web site. I decided to start a new thread to take the focus away from that web site and look at the larger issue of business skills.

The majority of working dancers that I've met do NOT have any professional training in marketing communications, finance, economics, and other business skills. Consequently, when they build web sites, design flyers, sponsor workshops, and engage in other business activities, they may do things in a way that is counter to what business professionals would advise.

I think it can be valuable for us to share ideas on these areas. It helps those who don't have formal educations in business practices build their skills.

But.... discussions of this sort are much easier to have if you can point to examples of what you believe to be either great role models or mistakes, and then talk about why they are good or bad. Sedonia raised the question of whether it's a good idea to make a point of one's own social status, one's husband's social status, and the social status of one's clients. Her point would have been more difficult to make if she hadn't linked to a web site on which a dancer was doing exactly that.

So, what is a civilized way in which we can talk about business practices, educating those who are new to the pro world, without making people feel we're picking on individuals?

Shira, I'm glad you've started this thread.
I believe it's possible to create fake examples that may be based on real practices. This way we can talk about issues without anyone feeling singled out.
We can talk about professionalism and image through fabricating text, altering text to eliminate identifiers or describing things without linking to an individual.

For example- exaggeration on websites is something that I feel is very unprofessional and generally coming from insecurity. Unfortunately unless a website viewer knows the person locally, the untrue claims whether subtle or outrageous are usually assumed to be true.
These sorts of things can range from:
*the "dancer all her life" AKA dancing since she was a zygote
*links or text implying connection or affiliation with schools or individuals when there is no real connection, endorsement or affiliation
*"specialties" that are more dream than reality (do you "specialize" in embassy events if you have never professionally performed at one?)
*hafla events implied as professional performances "around the country" when listed on resume

Flowery language and over the top self aggrandizement seem to me often to be making up for lack of something else. This "something else" might be dance experience, but it also might be self confidence, simple business skills and professional image skills or when it continues, maybe something deeper, such as habitual or pathological lying.
Example: Shapoopie, dancing all her life found with blessings and gratitude the mysterious and exotic art of danse oriental. Her love of the dance took over her soul and flourished under great many mentors.

I mean really. It's possible to present concrete genuine experience and education beautifully without getting all flowery and false.
I love flower garland wearing unicorns that leave sequin droppings as much as the next girl. BUT unless you can actually present a sparkly pooping steed in reality, or genuinely performed with one WHY are you talking like that?

Thanks for doing this, Shira.

I can't speak for Sedonia, but I didn't get the sense that she was singling the specific dancer out for the purpose of lambasting somebody on a Friday afternoon. Her post seemed to be more in the nature of bringing up issues of personal disclosure, ettiquette in terms of discussion of wealth, and where we draw boundaries between healthy self-promotion and a gratuitous self-lovefest.

As for me, seeing that I caught a lot of heat for my comments, I tried and apparently miserably failed to divert the conversation to marketing by offering firsthand suggestions that work successfully with high-end clientele. The criticism was that nobody asked me to open my big rude mouth....though, ironically, the point of my using specific examples was to open the conversation back up to a more generalized topic of what does and does not work in marketing! I actually think my response, though it had an innocent intention, was the worst received of all of them.

The issue that triggers the greatest offense is the issue of consent. To avoid throwing dancers to the wolves, we could always invite them to share their blunders and their previous "don'ts" in an open forum. For instance, Jewel wrote that great lighthearted article about performance SNAFU's not long ago, which offered some great advice coupled with hilarious anecdotes from our beginner days.

Costume snark also seems to raise many eyebrows, as the UBDC thread has been canned for its political incorrectness. However, how will students know what Long Bra Strap Syndrome looks like if they don't have concrete visuals to aid them? Perhaps, we can similarly ask Bhuzzers or friends to submit pics of their previous costume blunders and compile them in a lightly humorous, but instructional way.

I also love Samira's idea about fake examples. It is easy, after all, to fabricate the popular cliches.

Sedonia also raised a good point: how about discussions of Paris Hilton, QueenCassie, Princess Farhana/burley fusion, Suzie Nippletassels, Shakira, Suhaila Salimpour, Kaya and Sadie, Dolphina, or even Sahar's latest debatably "fugly" designs? It seems as though all of the above are fair game for critique, so where exactly do we draw the line? How do we have a truly non-offensive thread on Bhuz? Is it even possible? ..g.:

Lisa

Even simple things like grammar and spelling errors take away from one's professional image, regardless of the business. Samira has good suggestions. I always appreciate seeing what marketing works--there is a lot of information about the effectiveness of flyers, direct mail, etc. (mostly they are not worth the money!). I agree that the belly dance industry suffers from a lack of professionalism, not in teaching and performance!

Simple strategies like learning how to do a basic business plan and a basic marketing plan are musts for professional dancers.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Thanks for doing this, Shira.

I can't speak for Sedonia, but I didn't get the sense that she was singling the specific dancer out for the purpose of lambasting somebody on a Friday afternoon. Her post seemed to be more in the nature of bringing up issues of personal disclosure, ettiquette in terms of discussion of wealth, and where we draw boundaries between healthy self-promotion and a gratuitous self-lovefest.

As for me, seeing that I caught a lot of heat for my comments... ironically, the point of my using specific examples was to open the conversation back up to a more generalized topic of what does and does not work in marketing! I actually think my response, though it had an innocent intention, was the worst received of all of them.

...However, how will students know what Long Bra Strap Syndrome looks like if they don't have concrete visuals to aid them? ...
Sedonia also raised a good point: how about discussions of Paris Hilton, QueenCassie, Princess Farhana/burley fusion, Suzie Nippletassels, Shakira, Suhaila Salimpour, Kaya and Sadie, Dolphina, or even Sahar's latest debatably "fugly" designs? It seems as though all of the above are fair game for critique, so where exactly do we draw the line? How do we have a truly non-offensive thread on Bhuz? Is it even possible? ..g.:
Lisa

Oh, gosh, I never thought anyone on that thread had bad intentions at all. It was apparent to me that people were merely discussing business practices and professionalism and how to make decisions beneficial to the image you choose to create.
...and Lisa you bring up a wonderful point- where is the line? I believe we all have different lines...and our lines might evolve and change as our time in the dance changes us as individuals.

Business is business:

check for broken links on your website,
keep your contacts and homepage updated,
always state several ways of payment for your services.

Is this kind of input we want in this thread ? Or am I kidding myself ?

The problem with keeping everything hypothetical is that you really can't get the variation in perceptions and opinions from different people based on the actual thing being discussed. if I describe a hypothetical example, you are really just seeing my opinion.

It's like the difference between:

1. Hey everyone, taste this chocolate cake and tell me what you think.

vs.

2. Hey everyone, do you like really delicious, mouthwatering chocolate cake with smooth and creamy butter frosting, drizzles of hot fudge, and big dollops of whipped cream?

vs.

3. Who likes chocolate cake?

vs.

4. Don't you hate it when chocolate cake is too sweet and doesn't have enough butter in it and is made with cheap crappy chocolate?

Which conversation is going to be the most insightful? The one where everyone tastes the same cake and reports their opinion, or the other three generalized or hypothetical examples?

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

The issue that triggers the greatest offense is the issue of consent. To avoid throwing dancers to the wolves, we could always invite them to share their blunders and their previous "don'ts" in an open forum.

I think this is a great suggestion. Some people already do this by posting links to their newly-created web sites or newly-posted youtube videos and inviting critique. We could take this a step farther by inviting people to post for critique flyers they have created or marketing text they have written, and the bhuz community could offer gentle, tactful feedback.

And yet... a person can learn a lot from seeing something bad, and the creator of the "something bad" doesn't always come here to post it.

Years ago, when shira.net was little more than a tool for me to learn the skills of web site design & creation, I found this web site: Web Pages That Suck learn usability and good Web design by looking at bad Web design Home Page . I found it useful as a tutorial in common mistakes by web site designers, to help me avoid making the same mistakes. I found that its use of actual web sites was helpful to me, because it helped me realize that people DO make certain mistakes. I agree with Sedonia's point that hypothetical examples would not have had nearly the same impact, and therefore wouldn't have taught me as much. Interestingly, one challenge the creator of this web site has had over the years has been that once he singles out a web site to feature, the owners get word of it and change it. So he has the constant challenge of ensuring that the examples he cites as "what NOT to do" are still doing the things he originally scolded them for.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I believe it's possible to create fake examples that may be based on real practices. This way we can talk about issues without anyone feeling singled out.

Samira, you've given some excellent examples to illustrate your point. And yet...

Originally Posted by ssipes

The problem with keeping everything hypothetical is that you really can't get the variation in perceptions and opinions from different people based on the actual thing being discussed.

Sedonia makes a valid point here.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Oh, gosh, I never thought anyone on that thread had bad intentions at all. It was apparent to me that people were merely discussing business practices and professionalism and how to make decisions beneficial to the image you choose to create.
...and Lisa you bring up a wonderful point- where is the line? I believe we all have different lines...and our lines might evolve and change as our time in the dance changes us as individuals.

I never got that feeling, either.

Also, something I found odd: Claudia La Rocco, uneducated in M.E. dance, writes a brief blurb that Leila Haddad is a sex kitten. Legions of nasty letters immediately get sent to her editor. Soraya, who's been dancing in America since childhood, consistently degrades American dancers in her website copy, and in greater depth than Ms. La Rocco. We're accused of being rude for feeling alienated. Both are essentially the same damaging generalization. How is it permissible when a dancer does it, yet reprehensible when an unsavvy reporter does it?

Let that be another lesson in copywriting ettiquette: if you want to elevate your art form to the level of ballet and opera, do NOT imply that the majority of your peers are low-class, flailing idiots who perform raqs beaver in shady nightclubs and don't understand the cultural roots of their own art form. Lead by example.

Sorry for threadjacking. This truly is a multi-faceted issue. Maybe we should start a spinoff thread of copywriting do's and don'ts.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Years ago, when shira.net was little more than a tool for me to learn the skills of web site design & creation, I found this web site: Web Pages That Suck learn usability and good Web design by looking at bad Web design Home Page . I found it useful as a tutorial in common mistakes by web site designers, to help me avoid making the same mistakes. I found that its use of actual web sites was helpful to me, because it helped me realize that people DO make certain mistakes.

Controversial as it is, the UBDC thread was quite helpful for me in terms of altering and designing costumes.

For instance, all of the nipple-targets and crassels are a striking example of fringe and applique placement gone horribly awry: a flower on the top and/or bottom half of the bra cup looks innocent, but center it over the nipple and it suddenly looks scary! A snake motif is cool on a costume, but make it look like a penis and center it on the crotch? BAD IDEA. And, yes, seeing enough underboob, sideboob, and long bra strap syndrome has drilled it into my mind that bra strap placement is key in emphasizing your "assets."

On the other hand, had somebody written a lengthy manifesto about what happens when your bra straps are too long, or why you might want to position your tassels somewhere other than your crotch or buttcrack....,s::. It just doesn't drive the point home.

And I am, by no means, implying that I know everything about costumes. I have several PRIME offerings to the UBDC discussion, from my early days. Think, 3-4 puffy circle skirts, WITH harem pants, WITH scarves around the hips....and I'm 4'11". If somebody made fun of my old pics, I'd probably join right in on the mockery......l;,

Have to say that mostly information like:

Our chocolate cake is *this big
*this many portions and flavours
*this cost
*available in many places
*many methods of delivery in short term
*many methods of payment

works better with clients than:
* we have the biggest, sweetest cakes in town
*we use only pure ingredients imported straight from elsewhere
*our cheff was awarded so and so
*we use ages old family owned recipe.


I believe it should be reversed if weever want to reach higher status of our dance but the truth is that most clients are hunting for a cheap price not concerning themselves with quality.


If I`m off topic again, I`ll quit this thread, I promise.

I honestly believe that what was posted yesterday was the "right" way to discuss.

A.) A topic was given to discuss

B). Opinions were given in a positive manor; no name calling and slander were present.

C). Examples of what were wrong with the website information were given (b/c that is what the topic was)

D). Polite suggestions were discussed among dancers on what could be said instead of over the top self indulgent, misguided information.


P.S.
We have a link for belly dance business already. Maybe someone could post links to helpful websites like the one Shira posted.

If we as a board can't discuss topics without getting upset b/c not everyone see's it our way than we are in trouble. Sometimes we just can't agree and we need to accept that both views could be absolutely correct.

I agree, Michelle. Totally. If we cannot identify what is professional and what is not because we have to be nice all the time, we'll never get anywhere. There's more to life than walking on eggshells all day long.

Originally Posted by Michaela

[COLOR="purple"]works better with clients than:
* we have the biggest, sweetest cakes in town
*we use only pure ingredients imported straight from elsewhere
*our cheff was awarded so and so
*we use ages old family owned recipe.

See, I think fun little details can "humanize" a business pitch in a tasteful way. I love to see a dancer's personality peek through on her web copy: it's a nice departure from all the boring bios out there. Everybody seems to say the saaaaaaame...exaaaaaaaact...thinggggggggg....,s::

If the aforementioned chef was awarded some significant title, then that bears brief mention or a little logo plastered somewhere on the site. (NOT "It was a truly blessed day when my years of pastry making and my calling from God finally paid off in the form of a gold medal in the 2008 Pleasantville County Chamber of Commerce Cake Bake-Off"). Maybe the family recipe might be a fun little tidbit in a "How We Got Started" blurb. You're right about the rest: superlatives are always risky.

To strike the balance, I think one must avoid any word ending in "-est," any untrue statements, and schmaltzy language ("Poopsie has been dancing since the day she could walk!" "Middle Eastern Dance is a blessing from God!" "Lady Glittertush grew enamored with the feminine divine that is bellydance!" etc), and present herself as an accomplished professional who still has something unique to offer.

I totally see the use of having concrete, real examples of "bad" to serve as learning tools.
Maybe there is discomfort for some because this is in open forum as opposed to a closed room in which we are watching and discussing some of *those* videos.
Maybe it also feels different for some because (as Lisa brought up) we are in fact not defending our art against an "outsider", but "learning from" one of "our own".

Seeing as we have so many food examples and we all like cake:
Charm City Cakes
I think is an excellent example of really good web design as well as copy that communicates both quality and personality.

How about starting a poll for 10 best and 10 worst belly dance web sites ?

You can use sites from other businesses/entertainers to avoid the inevitable negativity that will come if you say, "These 10 websites are BAD."

of course, now I want cake
(though I like he analogy)

This reminds me quite a bit of the "how to" write your resume and cover letter web articles, as I am getting prepared for my "nerd life" job search. And maybe in a few years, I'll have to think about the whole bellydance webpage thing.

Originally Posted by resullivan

This reminds me quite a bit of the "how to" write your resume and cover letter web articles, as I am getting prepared for my "nerd life" job search.

It's exactly like writing a resume, with a little more wiggle room for creativity. Same concept, though. Keep it simple. Briefly highlight your best achievements and assets. Remember that your reader will probably devote 30 seconds AT BEST to glancing at it. And, finally, don't make sh*t up. ..l;,

Good luck with the Nerd Life! Doesn't get more fun than that....wait, it does....I miss being a college spaz

Samira, I love Charm City's copy!

It's concise and humble, yet it's engaging, offbeat, and tells a little story. Professional, yet totally unique and colorful!

Too bad I don't know squat about HTML, otherwise I'd create an interactive educational mock-up of a bad bellydance website, complete with cliche copy, costume no-no's, glitchy moving graphics, cheesy music, and other SNAFU's, so students can witness firsthand how not to do things without anybody tempers flaring.

Anybody know a thing or two about web design? I'll write the unflattering fictitious copy....we can call it RainbowMoonflower.com, after my sparkly unicorn, to protect the anonymity of all bellydancers on the world wide web ..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Too bad I don't know squat about HTML, otherwise I'd create an interactive educational mock-up of a bad bellydance website, complete with cliche copy, costume no-no's, glitchy moving graphics, cheesy music, and other SNAFU's, so students can witness firsthand how not to do things without anybody tempers flaring.

This is a really good idea. I don't know anything about HTML either, though...the software provided by my web hosting company (Homestead) is made for non-techies such as myself, so I don't have to know HTML.

Maybe somebody could start a Geocities site?

Nisaa

I think there is a large room for improvement in the bellydance community on the subject of marketing themselves. I know some instructors have workshops that touch on the subject (How to be a Pro) but there is a lot we can do as dancers. This type of discussion can be helpful for newbies and seasoned pros, but I just feel slightly uncomfortable with using real dancers as the bad examples...unless they volunteer themselves.

The idea of creating a mock website is brilliant and THE best way to show what not to do...I think if one were to do this, a "what to do" site that cleans up the bad stuff would be even better. This way, if someone realizes their site has X problem, they can also see Y way of fixing it.

I'm always amazed when professional dancers who have obviously spent a great deal of money on costumes, training, make-up, workshops, professional photos etc decide to cut corners and not seek out and pay a professional designer to help them design a website or nice cards.

Originally Posted by ozma

I'm always amazed when professional dancers who have obviously spent a great deal of money on costumes, training, make-up, workshops, professional photos etc decide to cut corners and not seek out and pay a professional designer to help them design a website or nice cards.

Yes! Which is why I'm hiring someone to do mine for me ..g.:

It is expensive though and can take many gigs/parties to save up for. But I think it will be well worth it and I'm looking forward to getting feedback when it's finished. I'm hoping the bio isn't too gushy for everyone!

excellent thread topic!

Originally Posted by Safiyah

... I just feel slightly uncomfortable with using real dancers as the bad examples...unless they volunteer themselves. ...

Exactly.The Top 10 bellydance webs would be more positive approach. Or do you learn better from negative examples than from positive ones ? If it is so, this might be a good idea:

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

...
... create an interactive educational mock-up of a bad bellydance website, complete with cliche copy, costume no-no's, glitchy moving graphics, cheesy music, and other SNAFU's, so students can witness firsthand how not to do things without anybody tempers flaring. ...
..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

I think the worst websites site is excellent. It doesn't have to be about belly dance to get the message across. You could also ask people to come to the workshop and get feedback on their own websites.

I just really love the cake site...

Originally Posted by maliam

Yes! Which is why I'm hiring someone to do mine for me ..g.:

It is expensive though and can take many gigs/parties to save up for. But I think it will be well worth it and I'm looking forward to getting feedback when it's finished. I'm hoping the bio isn't too gushy for everyone!

(Cheering!)

It's just always struck me as the oddest thing not to outsource...and when i think about our costume costs...silly.

Yes, I designed my own cards, but I have a background in fine art and a group of graphic design-oriented friends I could run designs past.

Originally Posted by ozma

(Cheering!)

It's just always struck me as the oddest thing not to outsource...and when i think about our costume costs...silly.

Yes, I designed my own cards, but I have a background in fine art and a group of graphic design-oriented friends I could run designs past.

I saw your b-cards on another thread. They're gorgeous! ..g.:

And yes, if you have experience in web design or graphic design then do it yourself. But I don't. My website now isn't bad (I think), but I'd like something that pops and goes beyond what I can do on a DIY web builder. And from the previews the new one is going to be incredible!