Thread: Is this normal? Now with pictures!!

Please tell me what you think about this situation - this has NEVER happened to me before, and I'm wondering if it is at all normal.

I just danced at a wedding - awesome time. The bride is Irish but the groom and most of the guests are Jordanian. I was a surprise hired by the bride for her new family.

During the show, the Jordanian family members were SHOWERING me with money - not just a money shower here and there, but literally four people at once throwing money at me, and then another four, and then three, etc......for the first five minutes of my show. I would guess there was about $200 on the floor.

After the money showers stopped, but still during the show, I saw the mom of the groom pushing all the money towards the center of the floor. Then she started telling the employees to sweep it up and they start sweeping it into garbage bags during my set.

Ok, I think - the mom doesn't want anyone tripping on the money. Fine with me, makes it easier for me to get my tips and go at the end.

So, the wedding ends, and my mom (who always comes with me ) goes to find the employee who swept up the tips. The employee brings my mom over to the mom and dad of the groom and tells her she gave it to them.

So my mom says "I'd like to get the bellydancer's tips." And the mom of the groom says "Oh no, those are not hers." And my mom - in shock - says "What do you mean?" and the mom says "Those tips do not belong to her."

My mom was so taken aback she didn't know what to say, so she came back to where I was and we just left. Obviously, I think those tips are mine, but I didn't want to cause a scene at a wedding. If the tips don't belong to me, who do they belong to, then??? There was no band - I brought my own CD. There is no club or restaurant owner who could lay claim to them - this was a private party. The bride paid for me, not the groom's mom (the groom's family didn't even KNOW about me!).

Please tell me that it is Jordanian custom for the groom's mom to collect the tips of the bellydancer and give them to the bride and groom to start their life together. At least that will make me feel better about this. Otherwise, I'm going to be really pissed that the mother of the groom just MADE money off of my show.


Update! The bride is back from her honeymoon and I have decided NOT to say anything to her, because she really is the sweetest thing and she sent me some amazing pictures. Thought you all might get a kick out of these two.

Here's an example of the "multiple person money shower" that was going on that night.


And here is a quarter of the dance floor, AFTER the mother in law already had most of the money swept up.


There are more but they are too painful to look at. ,f::

Anyway, just thought you all would appreciate this...cr.:

Oh, Daniela! I'm sorry I can't help--I don't know what Jordanian custom is, but I just cannot seem to pick my jaw up off the ground! I also just want to tell you that I'm truly sorry this happened to you. As if our profession didn't have enough obstacles already what w/gig-finding and undercutting, we must now also be wary of wedding gig tip-taking in-laws?!

Thank you for your sympathies :-)

I'm thinking I'm going to add a clause in my contracts that any tips thrown on the floor during my show belong to me...never thought that would be necessary being that I am talking about private parties where I supply my own music...but apparently it's an issue......

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

Thank you for your sympathies :-)

I'm thinking I'm going to add a clause in my contracts that any tips thrown on the floor during my show belong to me...never thought that would be necessary being that I am talking about private parties where I supply my own music...but apparently it's an issue......

Excellent point! I know you're an attorney; I'm a paralegal...I was actually just starting to think about what legal action, if any, could be done. But I guess you're headed in the right direction by ensuring it doesn't ever happen again.p::

LOL....legal minds think alike. :-)

I don't think there was anything I could have done here - technically, you don't have to tip the bellydancer, and they paid me my fee. I could have fought for it, but I really liked the bride and didn't want to cause drama at her wedding. But - live and learn, right?

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

LOL....legal minds think alike. :-)

I don't think there was anything I could have done here - technically, you don't have to tip the bellydancer, and they paid me my fee. I could have fought for it, but I really liked the bride and didn't want to cause drama at her wedding. But - live and learn, right?

Exactly. Very delicate situation being that it's a wedding; Good karma on your part - generous, dignified, classy IMHO *Runs off to change my contract format, too* ..g.:

Yes, I would expect the $$ were given to the bride and groom.

Whether doing this this way is any kind of widespread Jordanian custom I cannot say--I've certainly never heard of it--but this may at least be a *family* custom. From what you described I got the distinct impression that the mother of the bride was not the *only* one who thought the money being showered on the dance floor was going to the bridal couple.

I have seen other things where guests are "tipping" or giving money to the bride and groom in some way. Never on the scale or in the exact way of this incident, but nevertheless. And honestly, at the Arab weddings I've been to as a dancer or guest, tipping a *dancer* (if one was present) was different from what you would see at pretty much any other kind of parties (including an engagement or other prewedding event). Typically, not the bunches of people showering money--maybe someone makes a small show of doing it, but sometimes too, there is no tipping at all during the dancer (though the person who hired her may tip on top of her fee.) Again, though, this is just based on the people and communities *I've* been exposed to--so I don't intend to assert that I know any definite Arab/Arab-American norm. I get the feeling that, like many things her in the US too, certain matters of how things are done and what customs and ettiquette are followed may vary somewhat by ethnic/national background, region (of the US as well as former countries), socio-economic status, family traditions, etc.

Maybe someone else will have a better answer for you. But this is part of why I charge more for weddings than normal parties--when performing at a wedding, I generally don't *expect* there to be tips (if there are, swell, but I actually feel a little awkward about the whole tips at weddings thing, unless they are specifically handed to me afterward etc.) The other reasons, of course, ar things like: I also expect weddings may take going to be more planning/contact upfront and require me to be flexible and able to "go with the flow" the night of the event. Whereas I may stack multiple parties and appearances in a night, if I'm doing a wedding, it's more likely either going to be the only gig I take that night, or I will at least leave a very wide berth timewise (hours) between it and whatever else to be sure I can accommodate reasonable hiccups in their event timing etc. without adding to their stress.

Have you ever been to a wedding with a money tree? I imagine that to the bride's mother giving the money shower to the dancer might be as like expecting to give the money tree to the caterer.

Maybe before you add clauses to your contract regarding tips, it might be a good idea to discuss cultural expectations with clients to avoid faux pas. Perhaps there is a way to learn more about wedding customs in various middle eastern cultures. In fact, that would make an intresting article in a dance publication.

Souzan

Well, the sister of the groom was talking to my mom about the tips in a way that made my mom feel she definitely was thinking they were my tips. (They were talking during the show). And I've danced at Arab weddings before (no specific Jordanian weddings, though) and gotten to keep all the money I made in a money shower.

I am interested to learn more about customs and practices, but I think I will insert this clause into my contract anyway. If a potential client has a problem with it, they can bring it up before signing the contract. At least that way it will be out in the open and discussed beforehand and I'm not blindsided after the show.

Originally Posted by Souzan

Have you ever been to a wedding with a money tree? I imagine that to the bride's mother giving the money shower to the dancer might be as like expecting to give the money tree to the caterer.

Maybe before you add clauses to your contract regarding tips, it might be a good idea to discuss cultural expectations with clients to avoid faux pas. Perhaps there is a way to learn more about wedding customs in various middle eastern cultures. In fact, that would make an intresting article in a dance publication.

Souzan

That is a really good idea like many I have no difinitive answer and it doesn't seem like there would be any way to anticipate the behavior of the clients at a wedding. Therefore the best thing to do would be to take control of that expectation in advance by adding to your contract.

You didn't talk to the bride about this? I would have bypassed the mother of the bride and gone straight to the source to ask about where the tips were supposed to be going, and if she was aware of this new "custom" of the dancer's tips not going home with her. The question can be asked in a very "I had no idea" innocent kind of way so as not to offend.

Holy crap, Daniela! Unless, of course, there really is a custom that at Jordinian weddings, tips for the dancer belong to the bride and groom, that totally sucks!

I don't know if I would assume that's the case, though - as was pointed out to me recently in my "gig from Hell" thread, jerkwads come in all nationalities, and just because a ME person does something that seems rude to us, doesn't mean it's due to a cultural clash. Sometimes they are just a rude person, period.

If the bride's family hired you, it seems to me that anything involving renumeration should be their call, not the groom's family. I think it was an excellent call to not make a scene at the wedding, but now that it's over, does the bride know what her new MIL did? I can understand not wanting to cause friction between her and her new in-laws, but maybe a politely worded and innocent sounding email when she returns from her honeymoon?

"I had so much fun performing at your wedding, thank you so much for booking me. I just wanted to confirm that you were passed along the substantial tips thrown during my performance? We were told (I think the key here is not to say who told you, but leave it vague) that the tips were not intended for me, so just wanted to make sure that the money was given to the intended recipient."

For all she knows, you might be just making sure that an employee didn't make off with the cash. In any case, the only reason I bring it up is the thought that the bride did want you to keep the tips, and might feel terrible if she knew you didn't actually get them.

Originally Posted by SummerSahar

You didn't talk to the bride about this? I would have bypassed the mother of the bride and gone straight to the source to ask about where the tips were supposed to be going, and if she was aware of this new "custom" of the dancer's tips not going home with her. The question can be asked in a very "I had no idea" innocent kind of way so as not to offend.

No, I didn't want to bother the bride, she was having so much fun on the dance floor. As a recent bride myself, I know I would not have wanted to deal with this type of drama while I was trying to enjoy my wedding (and there were vendors trying to ask me questions while I was having fun, and I summarily dismissed them all and told them to talk to my coordinator because I didn't want to hear it!). I am waiting to see if she sends me a follow up email, because then I will bring it up (very innocently, of course!) and see what she says.

Originally Posted by laura 2

"I had so much fun performing at your wedding, thank you so much for booking me. I just wanted to confirm that you were passed along the substantial tips thrown during my performance? We were told (I think the key here is not to say who told you, but leave it vague) that the tips were not intended for me, so just wanted to make sure that the money was given to the intended recipient."

For all she knows, you might be just making sure that an employee didn't make off with the cash. In any case, the only reason I bring it up is the thought that the bride did want you to keep the tips, and might feel terrible if she knew you didn't actually get them.

I LOVE it Laura!!! I will definitely send this email - yes, it totally makes it seem that I am genuinely concerned that a staff member did not run off with all the dough, while pointing out that I did NOT get the tips! Nice!

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I LOVE it Laura!!! I will definitely send this email - yes, it totally makes it seem that I am genuinely concerned that a staff member did not run off with all the dough, while pointing out that I did NOT get the tips! Nice!

You're welcome! It's kinda sneaky, but effective.

I know there was stuff that happened on my wedding day I was horrified to find out about later. But I was having so much fun, and shielded by caring family members, so I never realized any of it was happening. I'd hate to think of the bride finding out about this months from now, and being mortified as to what you might think of her.

Originally Posted by laura 2

...
I don't know if I would assume that's the case, though - as was pointed out to me recently in my "gig from Hell" thread, jerkwads come in all nationalities, and just because a ME person does something that seems rude to us, doesn't mean it's due to a cultural clash. Sometimes they are just a rude person, period.

If the bride's family hired you, it seems to me that anything involving renumeration should be their call, not the groom's family. I think it was an excellent call to not make a scene at the wedding, but now that it's over, does the bride know what her new MIL did? I can understand not wanting to cause friction between her and her new in-laws, but maybe a politely worded and innocent sounding email when she returns from her honeymoon?
...
For all she knows, you might be just making sure that an employee didn't make off with the cash. In any case, the only reason I bring it up is the thought that the bride did want you to keep the tips, and might feel terrible if she knew you didn't actually get them.

Oooooohhhhh--do what you think is right, I guess, but I wouldn't touch that with a 30 foot pole. Sending an email like that...you're starting to brush up against the relationship between bride and new MIL. Cardinal rule of family relations: if it's not your family and no one's in mortal danger, STAY AWAY from it. That goes double in Arab families (or other close-knit communities and families) where family relations are considered very private and very central.

Yes, jerks and rude people come in all ethnicities and nationalities. It's very possible that the parents of the groom made the decision alone, and it doesn't sound like an overly high-class choice to have made, but you don't know. Maybe certain members of the groom's family were accustomed to doing things this way, and maybe the bride, some members of her family, or some younger member of the groom's family even would disagree strongly. Heck, even among fairly homogenous Euro-American-born groups of people there can be VEEERY nasty disagreements about certain matters of wedding ettiquette among families when couples get married (just because different people were used to different things...cash bar vs. open, money tree vs. "no, that's tacky", who all needs to be invited, etc....) It's between them...and it's also done and over now.

You got your performance fee. Tips are gravy. I understand that it's disappointing (because they are an important income source) and it feels yucky (like maybe you were dissed a little *because* you were a "just a dancer", etc.) but my advice would be...Let this one go. Just take steps in the future to try to be sure you and your clients are on the same page in terms of expectations.

I think you did the right thing by letting this one go. But honestly I've always been given tips showered on my during shows- Arab weddings, Turkish weddings, Indian weddings, musicians/CD...the only people who have ever tried to take my tips were venue owners and musicians.
Your experience brings up an excellent point, though. Get it in writing.

I just sent out a contract for a new wedding I'll be dancing at in June - and I included this sentence after my fee section:

All tips placed on the floor during the performance are property of the Performer.

It's for an American wedding, we'll see if they say anything....

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

Heck, even among fairly homogenous Euro-American-born groups of people there can be VEEERY nasty disagreements about certain matters of wedding ettiquette among families when couples get married (just because different people were used to different things...cash bar vs. open, money tree vs. "no, that's tacky", who all needs to be invited, etc....)

ITA with this - people in my family have literally gotten into physical altercations over whether or not to do the "dollar dance".

Asks in a bashful voice, "what is a money tree"?

I think it was professional and dignified of you to not cause a fuss at the wedding. No bride wants to deal with issues like this on her big day.

But I agree with Laura on the email and following up on this once the bride is home from her honeymoon...

... I'm adding this into my contract too!

Oh, that stinks. At least it was going to the couple, rather than a restaurant owner, but wow.

I always put this clause in my contract:

* Nadira Jamal will not solicit tips from the guests, but if they choose to tip Nadira Jamal of their own accord, they may do so by throwing bills in the air above her head, respectfully placing them in her costume (Nadira Jamal will indicate an appropriate place, and inappropriate behavior will not be tolerated), or handing them to her. Any and all tips given to Nadira Jamal are hers to keep, and are in addition to the (insert fee here) payment.

I can see how there might be some confusion along the money tree or dollar dance lines, and if the client really wants the tips to go to the couple, you can modify the contract accordingly. If you do agree to give away the tips, I'd ask for a higher base rate.

I'd also ask that someone announce that they are going to the couple. Ordinarilly, I think that not allowing a dancer to keep all of her tips is unfair to the *audience* as well as the dancer (since they probably wouldn't give that same money to the house), but if it's announced that it's for the couple, they may give more generously. Plus, more people may participate, which will improve

I usually discuss certain points of the contract (how tipping works, how much waiting time is built in and what accrues a waiting fee, etc.), ask them to confirm that everything fits what they had in mind for the show, and revise the contract if necessary. (Not all points are negotiable, and I never ask them to "approve" or "change" any particular points, that would be a can of worms.)

Originally Posted by laura 2

Holy crap, Daniela! Unless, of course, there really is a custom that at Jordinian weddings, tips for the dancer belong to the bride and groom, that totally sucks!

I don't know if I would assume that's the case, though - as was pointed out to me recently in my "gig from Hell" thread, jerkwads come in all nationalities, and just because a ME person does something that seems rude to us, doesn't mean it's due to a cultural clash. Sometimes they are just a rude person, period.

If the bride's family hired you, it seems to me that anything involving renumeration should be their call, not the groom's family. I think it was an excellent call to not make a scene at the wedding, but now that it's over, does the bride know what her new MIL did? I can understand not wanting to cause friction between her and her new in-laws, but maybe a politely worded and innocent sounding email when she returns from her honeymoon?

"I had so much fun performing at your wedding, thank you so much for booking me. I just wanted to confirm that you were passed along the substantial tips thrown during my performance? We were told (I think the key here is not to say who told you, but leave it vague) that the tips were not intended for me, so just wanted to make sure that the money was given to the intended recipient."

For all she knows, you might be just making sure that an employee didn't make off with the cash. In any case, the only reason I bring it up is the thought that the bride did want you to keep the tips, and might feel terrible if she knew you didn't actually get them.

From my humble experience, brides are greedy and are willing to accept large wads of cash without batting an eye. They think they deserve whatever they want because they are getting married (bitter, me?). I wouldn't be surprised if this bride acted in a similar fashion.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

...I always put this clause in my contract:

* Nadira Jamal will not solicit tips from the guests, but if they choose to tip Nadira Jamal of their own accord, they may do so by throwing bills in the air above her head, respectfully placing them in her costume (Nadira Jamal will indicate an appropriate place, and inappropriate behavior will not be tolerated), or handing them to her. Any and all tips given to Nadira Jamal are hers to keep, and are in addition to the (insert fee here) payment.

I like that. It manages to clarify whose is what, but does it in a way that keeps the focus on behavior: your own (you won't solicit tips), and the client-guests (helps them anticipate what is or is not appropriate behavior with regard to tipping.) Nicely done.

I like that too, I will start using that from now on!!!

Also....the good karma of "letting it go" yesterday has already caught up to me - I just got an email from someone who has a friend who was a guest at last nights wedding. Her friend said i was great and this person would like to book me for her sisters wedding in May.

Thank you, karma. :-)

i've never heard of anything like this at a greek wedding, unless the performer was a friend of the couple and had already decided to give them her tips. the whole throwing hoards of money onto the dance floor and needing it swept up is pretty typical. so is making sure that the staff doesn't run off with any of it.
although, those who were throwing money on you could have said something to the MIL before doing so which made her think that they were not so much throwing it on you, but more for the couple. if they tips HAD gone to you, it may have looked bad for the MIL
just presenting another point of view.
even though i know tips are not guaranteed..i would have been disappointed too!

It's a sticky situation at best and man do I feel for you!!! 9 times out of 10, I've collected the tips and there was no issue.
The one time I had ended up arguing with the matre' d after my show, when I figured that several hundred dollars was showered and I wasn't about to give up more than $100 in tips.
I was going to leave it to the (very) well-to-do newlyweds, but decided to press the point with the maitre d'. When he insisted that the $$$ was for the band (who didn't play during my set), I insisted that he collect the moolah for me or I was headed for the bride...
Long story short, I got my garbage bag filled with bills and meandered home...when I counted, my tips amounted to over $1500.
I have a clause in my contracts now that unless requested by the client, all tips offered at any party are the property of yours truly...if I dance with a band, I offer a split.
Gia

OMG, Gia, I don't even know what I would do with $1500 in a garbage bag!!

Thankfully, I don't think this was that much - unless there were a bunch of $20's sprinkled in with the singles, but if that was the case, I don't even want to know..... :-(

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Asks in a bashful voice, "what is a money tree"?

A money tree is a way for family and guests to give some bucks to the happy couple. You can pin a envelop with cash or check to the limbs along with your greetigs or simply stick some bills in the branches. I've seen some that were either a fake or real bare branched bush or tree painted waite. Others that are an actual potted plant. And one wedding I went to had one that was metallic and apparently made just for the purpose of collecting money.

Souzan

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

OMG, Gia, I don't even know what I would do with $1500 in a garbage bag!!

Thankfully, I don't think this was that much - unless there were a bunch of $20's sprinkled in with the singles, but if that was the case, I don't even want to know..... :-(

I know...I wish this was the norm...but I don't think I'll ever see tips that amounted to THAT much again in my career.
And...dumb me...I thought it was a couple of hundred...
The best advice was about putting in the contract...so no one's surprised after the fact!
Gia