Thread: Small rant about local going rate (long)

So, I figured I'd continue my rate discussion in a different thread (started in the restaurant jobs thread). The going rate here is $50-65 for two shows. I did some calculations and if I factor in getting ready time, travel time, waiting time and performing time I'm almost making $11/hr. That saddens me, considering I haven't even started to factor in the time and money it takes me to prepare a set, practice, take workshops, take regular classes, purchase all supplies...ugh. It just doesn't seem worth it.

So I go on to Sumaya's awesome going rate page and see that Columbus, OH is $50-75 for one show, $100-$135 for two shows and Dayton/Cinci is $45-$60 per show, 2 show minimum. I'm in Cleveland, BTW. So for our two shows, we are getting $40-85 LESS than other dancers in our state, in cities with comparable costs of living

I then looked at the cost of living in those cities compared to us, and they're basically the same. Dayton and Cinci are a tiny bit lower, Columbus is a little higher.

I just don't think these rates reflect what we're worth. I know I'm newer in this scene so I don't really know how to convey this to others; I hate to just march into a dance scene as this semi-newb and tell all the ladies who have been dancing for a long time that they're being underpaid. Especially since I haven't heard complaints (maybe I just haven't been involved in those discussions, though, who knows).

Thanks for letting me vent. ,f::

Rates never reflect what you're worth or even cost of living. They reflect the history of the dance community. One or two undercutting dancers can bring the rates down for an entire region very quickly and it takes years to get the rates back up. If you want to bring the rates up in your area, you need to band together with all of the working professionals. There's strength in numbers! Good luck!!

Originally Posted by Safiyah

I just don't think these rates reflect what we're worth.

I just want to say, I agree! you are worth so much more! As are the other dancers in your community. Why do dancers value themselves and their art so low?

Oh yeah, I know that but I wanted to make it comparable so we couldn't excuse the lower rate based on cost of living (like, I would never compare a dance job or even a day job to a SF or D.C. salary). I just feel a little bit "outside" the pro dance scene right now so I don't want people to think I'm coming in as a know-it-all...sorta hard to explain I guess. I'll figure out some way to casually bring it up. I emailed one girl a while back with that going rates link and she never responded

Originally Posted by shems

I just want to say, I agree! you are worth so much more! As are the other dancers in your community. Why do dancers value themselves and their art so low?

I think some dancers just want to be in the spotlight and therefore $10 might even be enough to bring them out, just for the attention.

I do it because I love to dance - hell, I think I need to dance, but I'm also a businesswoman who realizes that just because it's something that you love doesn't mean it's worth any less. We are skilled professionals and our pay should reflect that!

Originally Posted by Safiyah

I don't want people to think I'm coming in as a know-it-all...sorta hard to explain I guess

No, makes perfect sense. You have to assume that at least a few of the old-timers & leaders in your local dance scene are RESPONSIBLE for those low rates, and they're not going to take kindly to a 'young upstart' who doesn't 'know the business like we do' telling them that they're wrong.

I've been somewhat active on this front in my community, even though I'm one of the newer studio directors at only 8 years in the scene. It's tough.

I recently was given an old hafla flyer (from 1979) and discovered the the door price of haflas was actually HIGHER 30 years ago than it is now. I'm fairly certain the same is true for restaurant rates. I think it has to do with stiff competition that became very personal -- dancers who were more interested in 'winning' against each other than in earning a living.

Anyhoo, you don't know when you step into the local scene WHAT the history was, or who knocked down the prices. But you can bet if those dancers are still present, they're going to take it personally & fight you tooth and nail.

the way we've raised the rates recently is to open up group boards and discussion forums in our region......do you all have that? if you do, it's a good place to start with a "hey folks, i just saw that dancers in '______', get suchnsuch per set, and since it's the same kinda town.....maybe we can work our way to that........." kind of discussion..........plant the bug, as it were.....

gets people thinking, and wondering, and doing the math..........upstart or no, when people do the math, you wonder why they haven't done so sooner

we've made a HUGE improvement in our rates here, just in the last 2 years cuz we set the bar, and stuck to our guns......even previous undercutters are on the bandwagon, realizing they've cheated themselve, in addition to cheating the community..........we still have 'em, but they're not as prevalent

start slow, and community minded, you many end up with more support than you expect.........there WILL be dissenters, but they come around eventually, and the rates will go up

bravo, safiyah for looking forward, and upward! you deserve it!

Amazing, nobody expects to be fought by other dancers who knocked down the prices when fighting for higher rates for everybody, and goes for higher rate. Or maybe going for higher rate is a reason for hate and seclusion, I don`t know.

If somebody displays such behavior, then shems described their real problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shems


I think some dancers just want to be in the spotlight and therefore $10 might even be enough to bring them out, just for the attention.

I have heard often people blaming other dancers for bringing down the rates by low-balling, but I think we really need to consider those paying us themselves as a possible source of the low-pay as well. I've found many Middle Eastern clients to be particularly stingy and want to hire you, but want to pay you a meal, or $10 or $15 at best for a set. Many bellydancers in many regions face the sorry choice of either dancing for piddly pay, no pay, or not dancing at all. I know where I live, the Bible Belt, bellydance is just like stripping in most people's minds here. Where I dance at a local restaurant, the pay is so low I won't mention it here. I don't like it, and I have asked for a better rate of pay through our studio director and she understands we should be paid more, and I know she is going to try, but she is worried we will lose our dance gig all together if we press too hard. It seems like bellydancers are always stuck between a rock and hard place when it comes to pay. If it's not stereotypes, it's each other, or our clients. I guess the only one we really have control over is each other. Guess maybe that's why there's so much talk about dancers who low-ball to get a gig. The thing is, I can see all sides of this issue, and I think when you analyze it, it comes down to a lack of respect for not just the art but also for women in general. I could expound on that more but my post is already too long!

Just my 2 cents.
Eve

When I think about successful women in history, I don't think any of them got there worrying about what other people thought about them

If you want rates to go up in your community, don't worry about people who are against the idea. People who have a problem with "We deserve more" would be very unwise to judge you as a "know-it-all". Don't let that stop you from getting community rates up, or your own.

I agree that if many restaurant owners are certainly guilty of not wanting to pay a reasonable rate. But if ALL the local dancers just laughed in their faces and demanded a respectable minimum, the restaurant owners wouldn't be able to get away with paying those low rates. The reason the restaurant owner thinks he can hire you for tips only, or a few bucks, is because he knows OTHER DANCERS will do it.

There does come a point where restaurants simply can't justify the expense, of course. If it's a depressed community, if the restaurant owner doesn't see enough increase in customers on nights when there's a dancer, etc. then dancing gigs for reasonable pay simply won't exist.

I agree, too, that sometimes you just have to make waves, even if it makes you unpopular for a while. That's how progress happens and it's how leaders operate. I'm just saying, find out what you can about the players involved and the local history before you crusade.

Originally Posted by EveRabie

I have heard often people blaming other dancers for bringing down the rates by low-balling, but I think we really need to consider those paying us themselves as a possible source of the low-pay as well. I've found many Middle Eastern clients to be particularly stingy and want to hire you, but want to pay you a meal, or $10 or $15 at best for a set. Many bellydancers in many regions face the sorry choice of either dancing for piddly pay, no pay, or not dancing at all. I know where I live, the Bible Belt, bellydance is just like stripping in most people's minds here. Where I dance at a local restaurant, the pay is so low I won't mention it here. I don't like it, and I have asked for a better rate of pay through our studio director and she understands we should be paid more, and I know she is going to try, but she is worried we will lose our dance gig all together if we press too hard. It seems like bellydancers are always stuck between a rock and hard place when it comes to pay. If it's not stereotypes, it's each other, or our clients. I guess the only one we really have control over is each other. Guess maybe that's why there's so much talk about dancers who low-ball to get a gig. The thing is, I can see all sides of this issue, and I think when you analyze it, it comes down to a lack of respect for not just the art but also for women in general. I could expound on that more but my post is already too long!

Just my 2 cents.
Eve

you are correct that owners have blame here too..........

but many in areas that have improved their lot have done so by WALKING AWAY from bad paying venues...........

i'll get yelled at for saying it, but that's what does it sometimes......fear of losing a gig is another aspect of price stasis, cuz owners know, or more accurately, THINK they have dancers over a barrel........

another weapon is willingness to walk away.........

Re: walking away from gigs rather than accepting lower-than-low wages:

It can be really hard to do!

1. "Well, if I don't do it, then some six-week-wonder will wander in and do it for even less (or maybe for a plate of hummus)."

2. "The restaurant is just starting with dancing; they can't afford much." (See #1 above)

3. "It's just a short set and maybe the tips will be good (or are good)." See #1 above.

4. "Well, I'll start low and the wage will rise soon." See #1 above.



I have, occasionally, taken private gigs for less than I should have, as well as subbed for low wages for friends. Maybe it's karma, but it seems that the "discounted" private gigs are often a huge fiasco; sometimes the restaurant gigs are, too, but they're usually okay . . . well, they're okay until I get just a few bucks in tips for all my effort!



Although I don't seek restaurant jobs, if I did, you can bet that my required minimum would be $50 for a 15 minute set and a minimum of $70 for two (more if there's a big gap between shows). Longer show? More $.

Although we do have to keep in mind what our particular markets will bear, we simply must not short-change ourselves.

And to you, Safiya: you go girl! :thumbs_up:

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Re: walking away from gigs rather than accepting lower-than-low wages:

It can be really hard to do!

1. "Well, if I don't do it, then some six-week-wonder will wander in and do it for even less (or maybe for a plate of hummus)."

2. "The restaurant is just starting with dancing; they can't afford much." (See #1 above)

3. "It's just a short set and maybe the tips will be good (or are good)." See #1 above.

4. "Well, I'll start low and the wage will rise soon." See #1 above.


...

Deborah

Hey CasbahDance,
Numbers 2, 3 and 4 are addressed really nicely by Artemis Mourat's article on the Top Twenty Club Cliches.
Top 20 Club Cliches

As for number 1- that's where local yahoo groups and forums for discussions can help a lot. You won't reach everyone, but you can make really big strides. There ARE places that have some standards for quality - they will pay more for those with experience over the 6 week wonders; so if most of those with experience are sticking together for higher rates, they'll end up paying more.
It works! We've been doing it in the DC/Baltimore region for the past few years and places on average have raised their rates by over 40%.