Thread: How do you handle show videography?

I've been shooting & editing my own shows & duplicating the DVDs in my house. I either give the results away or sell them cheaply ($10), since I know I'm not a pro.

It's a lot of work, and there's really no profit in it. Actually, I'll have to do quite a bit more of it to pay for what I've invested in equipment.

My local videographers charge about $35 each for a single-camera DVD. Downside: My studio wouldn't make anything from the sales, my students & guest performers would have to pay more, and if they don't buy the minimum number of copies, I could be on the hook for some $$$.

On the plus side, we'd all have some professional footage, I'd have WAY fewer headaches and my valuable time and energy would be freed up.

Does anyone do this? If so, would you do it again? What are your experiences?

Hi Lauren:

I would definitely be willing to pay more for a really high quality video of a show, even more if the show profiled some really good dancers.

I've never had a video of myself where i can really see the details and nuance of the dance, my facial expressions, etc.

Sedonia

Ouch, $35 is a lot.

Can you do some sort of barter deal with someone? Maybe barter for the videography itself, and then for the duplication?

As Nepenthe remarked on another thread, she took care of the duplicating and distributing of DVDs resulting from footage shot at one of my Raks Spooki shows in Boston, and it was a huge time suck for her. The videographer donated his time, but we kind of got what we paid for. Next time, I'll contract a dance-experienced professional if there's interest from the performers, otherwise dancers will have to make their own arrangements for video. A small run would probably end up costing $25-30 per DVD, but I think it's worth it for a professional product.

Originally Posted by Taj

Can you do some sort of barter deal with someone? Maybe barter for the videography itself, and then for the duplication?

Don't we have entire threads about how offended belly dancers get when somebody tries to barter for our services? Are videographers any different?

I appreciate professionally filmed shows and am willing to pay for them. (However, I have paid decent $ for "professionally filmed" DVDs that still had issues . . .) If the DVD is available beyond just the performers and students, you are more likely to meet the minimum.

I have a couple from Sahara Dance (scroll to bottom to see their recent offering): Sahara Dance | Belly Dance Performances These aren't PERFECT, but are very, very good compared to most show DVDs (especially ones that include student performances) that I've seen.
(I have taken a couple of workshops with Rachel Kay Brookmire and the choreographies were in the shows for which I bought the DVDs, but ANYONE can buy these.) This particular dance studio has multiple instructors and a very large student base, so I realize their circumstances may be very different from the average dance instructor putting together a show DVD, but it's just one example that came to mind.

If you need to recover expenses of equipment you have purchased, is there a videographer willing to film and edit, for pay, but allow you to make the copies yourself?

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Don't we have entire threads about how offended belly dancers get when somebody tries to barter for our services? Are videographers any different?

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of a belly dancer who has video chops. Give her/him a discount on the workshop/show/classes/whatever.

Bartering is a respectable way to get services, provided that all parties agree, of course.

Does your local cable television provider have any sort of a local "city" channel? Ie, a locally-operated public access tv channel that creates its own programming based on local activities?

We have one which has come to videotape our local shows (those featuring only professionals, not students), and then it shows them on its station. Selling DVD's is not really its business, but it'll do it.

I personally did the editing, DVD authoring, and duplication for a local seminar show. (The camera was set up and left unattended.) It WAS a huge amount of work, and I won't do it again. I wasn't paid anything for it - I donated my time. (The local dance non-profit that sponsored the event did charge for the DVD's, so it was to them that I donated my time.) Anyway, the level of effort was such that even if I got to keep a % of the money collected, I still wouldn't be interested in doing it again.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

[. . . .]
Next time, I'll contract a dance-experienced professional if there's interest from the performers, otherwise dancers will have to make their own arrangements for video.

A dance-experienced professional videographer is crucial! I've paid too much $$ in the past for troupe belly and hips scans and zooms and no sense of the overall flow of my choreography, the patterns of movement, etc. As a choreographer, the results have often been deeply disappointing.

Even with a dance-experienced pro, I would suggest a meeting with the troupe leaders to see what they want. Some troupe leaders might want lots of individual zooms, or, as it would be in my case, no zooms, full troupe in sight at all times, including entrances and exits, since we practice these extensively before every performance.

No time for a meeting? I'd go up to the videographer with a short note, as in "Troupe Veils of Isis, dance numbers x and x, full entrance and exit, no individual zooms, entire troupe at all times." Make eye contact with the pro as you read the note and leave it with her/him with thanks.

Good luck!

Khalida

Originally Posted by ssipes

Hi Lauren:

I would definitely be willing to pay more for a really high quality video of a show, even more if the show profiled some really good dancers.

I've never had a video of myself where i can really see the details and nuance of the dance, my facial expressions, etc.

Sedonia

And herein lies the real answer to my question. Because a one-camera video, even done by a pro, isn't going to meet those expectations.

There would have to be multiple cameras, rehearsals with the videographers present, and lots of editing by a pro who understands both dance and video to make that happen.

I think for now I'll just keep doing it myself. Maybe I can invest a little LESS time in the editing work and simplify the process for myself a little bit.

I'm pretty happy to pay a fee of $35 for a pretty good dvd of a show. It down't have to have all the bells and whistles, good shots, clear and nothing freaky makes me happy.

I have issues with this topic... I don't mean to belittle anyone else's opinion and I hope to remain respectful. BUT, here's my take on it.

As professional artists, we have the right to expect payment at the going rate in our area. As individuals, we have a right to choose where to donate our time and efforts. I dance for free at select events, and workshop shows are something I don't mind doing to help support the event. Many of these shows wouldn't happen if we didn't help contribute to one another's efforts and I think we all really appreciate them.

However, if I have spent the time to put together a piece to perform at a venue pro bono, being expected to pay a fee for my dance footage feels like a slap in the face. Having the option is nice and depending on how I felt about said performance - I might be happy to pay the price of professional footage. No - nobody is forced to buy this footage, but I also feel I own the rights to my performance and if I want to videotape it with my own camera, I should be able to.

Obviously, it isn't a great idea to have people wandering around with cameras for a variety of reasons. So, I think the best answer to this question is this - have two cameras running. One pro cam, and one amateur cam. From there, the dancers have an option.

I know you could risk losing money where the professional DVDs are concerned, but perhaps if you approached the performers before the show to ensure you have enough buyers, that would be the best way around it? You could even have them pre-order the videos at a small "discount" so you don't have to deal with any headaches.

I have never caused an issue about this.... Really, I'm not a hard person to get along with and mostly avoid confrontation like the plague and will suck it up. But I do feel strongly that we have the right to our performance material. It's just not a nice feeling to be forced to pay for the footage after you've spent hours on practice and money on costumes.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

However, if I have spent the time to put together a piece to perform at a venue pro bono, being expected to pay a fee for my dance footage feels like a slap in the face.

But you are not just paying for your footage, but an entire show with multiple dancers.

Originally Posted by ssipes

But you are not just paying for your footage, but an entire show with multiple dancers.

Yes, that's true and is why if available, I am usually more than happy to purchase professional videos. I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea... but that I feel we ought to have options in regards to our own performance footage.

Lauren, I'm guessing if you get a DVD done professionally there'll be minimum orders you have to pay for, right? Last time I looked into this for my own concert, the DVDs were to be sold at $30, but with a minimum of 30 orders. That's $900 I have to vouch for - no way! I just know that, if I charge $30 for a show DVD, maybe one or two will buy, and the rest will burn a copy if they can. That's why professional videographes are going out of business!

I don't have a video camera or editing software, so my solution was to get an experienced amateur to do the videoing - one year a friend who did lots of kid's concerts, another year the husband of a student, who had professional equipment. I paid them up to $300 to do the filming and basic editing (chapters, titles, cut out the in-between bits) and then made copies and covers myself. That way, I can charge $20 per DVD, which means I usually sell just enough to cover costs (and if I don't, it's only a bit under and I consider that a reasonable cost for having the footage myself). I get a medium-to-good quality DVD which is worth having, but not a 'professional' one.

What I would do is tape a dress rehearsal of the show on your camera first. If you think the show is good enough to make into a DVD that will sell then get a professional in. That will help management some of the risk involved.

Even if there will be a professional video from the show, would you still allow people to bring their camera and do their own videotaping?

The biggest hassle for me is that I'm busy with preparing for the performance, my camera is mediocre quality and the friends that can do the videotaping for me are not very good at it. If I can do my own videotaping, I'll end up dragging extra stuff with me to the performance (added stress) and I'll have a dark and wobbly video of the performance. Paying $20 is a reasonable amount for me to consider not videotaping myself but just buying the dvd.

If I buy the dvd with footage from my performance, do you allow performaers to use this footage for their promotion? That's another issue, since internet and youtube are important when it comes to promoting yourself as a troupe/dancer. Good videofootage is important.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

I have never caused an issue about this.... Really, I'm not a hard person to get along with and mostly avoid confrontation like the plague and will suck it up. But I do feel strongly that we have the right to our performance material. It's just not a nice feeling to be forced to pay for the footage after you've spent hours on practice and money on costumes.

Well, although I do agree that it is nice to get complimentary footage, as an organizer...it's darn near impossible for me to find a way to hand out footage of the individual's performance for free. I do not require the performers purchase footage; however, I just can't find a way to justify giving it to them for free. Of course, I am not selling the video either. So if I had some other way to recoup the cost of the videographer, then I'd probably feel differently.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how anyone does it. I haven't ever video-taped and sold any of the shows I've produced because 1) It's a pain to get every performer to sign a release, 2) I just won't do it unless I can iron out the music rights (which is a whole other ball of wax), and 3) It's just plain expensive to produce a quality product. Honestly, I just don't know how anyone does it legally and breaks even.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but it really bothers me when videos are produced and sold to the public without doing things properly. I personally know someone who completely disregards music rights entirely and has a whole series of videos.

I'd love to find a way to make it possible. I don't even really care about making $$...I just don't want to fork out thousands of dollars out-of-pocket and not recoup the expense. If I could just break even...I'd be thrilled.

Most organizers sell the footage ONLY (or at least primarily) to the performers, and it's a service for them, not a profit center.

Music rights... well, theoretically if you're producing a show you've already taken care of that, right? ..g.:

Video releases aren't hard to gather, you just set them out in the dressing room and make an announcement before the show when the performers are gathered.

I don't think there's any need to be offended if an organizer offers you a DVD of the show at a certain price -- if you're not interested, just don't buy one.

I don't feel that an organizer is obligated to videotape and copy my performance for me when I perform. If I agreed to perform for free, I must have had my reasons (supporting her event because she provides a performance outlet for my students, publicity, just for fun) and I don't demand any special services in return.

I think, even for student dancers, it's nice to have some performance footage to keep with them of a bellydance show. I do know, the 1 video I have is of TERRIBLE quality. We look like washed-out blobs, and in this particular show, there were 35 of us, so people are getting cut out right and left. Sigh. At least I can see myself in one piece, but I look like a funny, little vibrating puppet shot from so far away!;-)

You know what? If you are putting on a show, there is no way to please everyone. You are putting a lot of time and effort into hosting the show, so you have to do what is right for you. The dancers can decide for themselves as to whether or not they participate or purchase DVDs.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Music rights... well, theoretically if you're producing a show you've already taken care of that, right? ..g.:

Video releases aren't hard to gather, you just set them out in the dressing room and make an announcement before the show when the performers are gathered.

Music rights for a show and music rights for a video are very different animals. Getting rights for a live show is relatively inexpensive. Last year we paid $65 (I think). But music rights for a taped performance is much more expensive.

I don't recommend making a blanket announcement before the show either as some people may feel pressured into signing that aren't really happy about it. It's just easier to put it into the contract/agreement ahead of time so it gets brought up early.

Of course, a show and a hafla are different animals too. I'm really thinking more about a bit larger production.

Otherwise, I agree with most everything else you commented on.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Of course, a show and a hafla are different animals too. I'm really thinking more about a bit larger production..

Ahhh. See, we don't really HAVE anything bigger in my area, so I don't even think in those terms. Haflas, workshop shows & recitals, that's it. Nothing you'd try to sell to the general public. A bigger show would be a different animal entirely.