Thread: Cutting off our noses to spite our face

This thread is spawned by an article I read in the Belly Dancer Magazine written by Morocco, Titled, If prices are up all over, why are oriental dancers getting less?

Lets face it.. There are too many of us.. Each day thousands enter the classroom to learn and thousands join the ranks to perform. Everyone wants their moment of glory and fame. Everyone it seems wants to perform and get paid. As our numbers grow our rate of pay will go down. Everywhere I turn in my own city I see another student or professional dancer going here and there to class or a gig. Like any other business when demand is low and supply is plentiful prices fall.... Just like any industry there comes a time when we need to curb supply inorder to keep rates high..... get where I'm going with this.

comments please.... for stimulating conversation.

It's absolutely true, but I think the problem is, what belly dance has been sold as has changed.

When Morocco and her ilk started dancing, nobody in the US knew anything about belly dancing - the high demand back then was in response to the popularity of Arabic nightclubs, which were a) new b) fitted with the 50s-60s fascination with "exotic" things c) were a little "naughty" and d) existed in a culture of live entertainment, where what you did, if you were a sophisticated person or aspired to be one, was go out for cocktails and dinner and thence to a club. The Arabic clubs found dancers who were not belly dancers, at first, in part because there were already jobs out there for girls who could dance and look pretty - there was still a LOT of live entertainment, there were dance shows and touring companies and the tail end of old burlesque.... By all accounts it was an exciting time. But it *was* the 60s and things were starting to change a LOT. From what I have read, the Arabic nightclub boom didn't last all that long in the grand scheme of things. People who just wanted titillation could soon go to topless bars, which were much more exciting, and the rest wanted the next big thing, whatever that ended up being. Even the way 60s fashions developed meant that "exotic" garments and trappings, and the showing of lots of leg, became very mainstream. So the people who were attracted by that no longer needed to go to a nightclub to see it.

I gather that it was about then - the late 60s, very early 70s - that the schools which were set up to train belly dancers for nightclub work switched their focus to promoting belly dance as a fun thing you could learn to do for your own fitness and well-being. At the same time, those few die-hards who wanted to learn more about the dance they were doing, like Morocco and Aisha Ali, were off checking out the ME, getting traumatised by sequins in Egypt, among other things. So as those professional dancers came back with more and more empirical information to impart to other professional dancers, gradually a class of dancer emerged that was much better informed about what they were doing. But at the same time, I am guessing, there were pockets of belly dance all over the place where dancers who were not part of the right professional groups, or didn't subscribe to magazines, etc, were merrily shimmying away based on what somebody might have learned at the Serena school years before, but with none of that subsequent input.

I think - and this is just my opinion, though I believe it to be informed - that as electronic media networks opened up, the quest for "authentic", which was a professional directive, filtered back to the hobby dancers because of, first, teaching videos, the wider availability of music on CD with proper liner notes etc, and now the internet. Plus, I'm guessing travel is a lot easier and comparatively cheaper today than it was in 1971. You might not be able to fly to Morocco but you sure can fly to a city where there are workshops. SO, dancers and dance teachers who are hobbyists are now bombarded with professional level inspiration, which means their own standards are going higher and higher. And in our world, success in a performance art form means, ultimately, making money at it, so all dancers who are even remotely capable want to perform, and to perform at a high level, and to become a famous pro dancer with her own DVDs and company and what have you. And there simply is not the market for it any more. I have no doubt the Jillinas of this world have worked very hard at creating their own market.

Of course the thing that complicates this even further is that for the last 40 years we have been selling belly dance as something *any woman can do*. And the reason for this is not simply because some dance schools wanted to keep functioning after their initial market of pro dancers trickled away. It's because the dances we do are at their core *social dances*, so it's not even a lie. The problem is, we think dancing = being a dancer, ie a professional entertainer. And not everybody can be one. But the way BD has developed in the west gives even the oldest or least physically capable woman a chance to feel like a star, and that's is a good thing. It's fantasy, yes, but we all need a little fantasy.

This is why I'm not in favour of trying to stop people who aren't very talented from learning to dance, because it is good for us. Rather, we need to create dance opportunities that are safe and appropriate for non-pro dancers and educate them enough to know that not everybody can, or should, be a professional dancer.

EXCELLENT synopsis, Zumarrad.

Lucinia, I also agree 100% that in simple terms, it's a supply and demand issue. As long as there are more people wanting to dance than there are people wanting to be audience members, pay will remain low.

If we wanted to correct that situation, we'd need to somehow be reaching the GP with a marketing message that *watching* belly dance is cool.

I agree with Zumarrad's observations that teachers need to cultivate enough amateur-appropriate performance opportunities to satisfy the desire some students have to perform.

Another cause of the problem of oversupply with respect to demand: Many belly dance teachers are also professional performers. Nothing wrong with that, except that some of them talk a lot about gigs as being the sign that one has achieved success.

I used to have a teacher who said something in almost every weekly class about performing professionally. She would make cutting remarks (without naming names) about the concept that teachers who don't perform professionally aren't qualified to teach, she would boast about her own prowess as a performing dancer in several local restaurants, etc. Taken together, this collection of remarks added up to a tacit message to students that if you don't perform in restaurants and such, you're not much of a dancer.

Hmmm, do you think that when people realise the gritty reality of being a performer, they stop as it's not like the hollywood dream? Plus all the headaches of being self employed.

Originally Posted by Lucinia

Each day thousands enter the classroom to learn and thousands join the ranks to perform. Everyone wants their moment of glory and fame. Everyone it seems wants to perform and get paid.

Coming to class doesn't equal visions of grandeur. I'm a teacher in a community services program. It's only a small percentage that will even consider performing in casual hafla setting let alone aspire to perform in a professional setting. In fact, I tell my students I realize that most of them have no desire to perform, but by being in class will help them be discerning when they are watching it.

Great summary Zumarrad. I think that's a keeper for my belly dance google notebook!

After witnessing a rather tragic belly dance performance a couple of weeks ago, I wondered about some of Lucinia's points. Why does everyone who takes a lesson a) think they should perform; and b) put themselves into performance siutations where they are completely out-danced and out of place?

Around L.A., I think perhaps it's the plethora of showcase and public hafla opportunities. We all have plenty of options to dance without any kind of audition process. Of course many are meant to provide an otherwise unavailable opportunity to those of us who are not professionals. Still, at some point, I find myself wishing someone would exercise some discretion. It's clear to me which showcases are safe for the more beginner dancer and which demand a higher level of skill - unfortunately not everyone uses that kind of evaluation process. They just think "showcase!"

I truly believe the dancer in question thinks she's a really good dancer and should be on stage - probably most of that comes from people saying "you were so great" as opposed to anyone pulling her aside and saying, "hey, you need to know...." Everyone thinks the latter is bitchy and horrible, so instead, her head is filled with how fabulous she is.

Zumarrad, I'm re-reading your excellent post for the third time. What a great summary. Lots of things I hadn't thought of before.

Regards
Priscilla

I can't understand, why in our dance form dancers become "professionals" very quickly. If we compare for other forms: ballet, show, jazz etc. The real professional start practising in early ages, continue practising for years, for hours per day, everyday of the week. In oriental dance after a couple years of dancing, a couple hours a week, dancers will think of themselves as professional level. We (dancers) have made something wrong with our advertising. Everyone CAN dance, but everyone can't ever be professional level dancer - not even advanced. Some just are not able and the rest will need so much work. Other issue I have with "dancing should always be fun". Yes, in hobbyist level and classes, but with professionals - no. I can't imagine ballet dancer insisting to have fun classes. Teaching oriental and ballet is different, same goes with children and adults, and the old ballet ways are horrible. BUT it seems that we have made it students constitutional right to have fun in our classes. Learning is sometimes hard - that's the fact.

Same goes with all the fusion. Good fusion is GREAT! But with saying everything should be possible, we encourage all kinds of attempts without any artistic view or background in the other form of dance/art. Fusion is more harder, because the dancer has to know about BOTH dance/art form almost equally.

Dance level and customs of course is different in every country or place.

Edited to add:
This was more for Dani's post.
Zumarrad, you really hit the nail.

Outi,

To tie it all back to Zum's post - I think maybe it's because we've moved from needing to create something for all women (70s and 80s) in an environment where there were fewer options, to today's environment where women can focus on how those options actually function. So we're "trapped" between old ideas of creating the medium and new ideas of elevating the quality of the medium.

I think women today are really caught between how we needed to see ourselves as a collective to gain equality and opportunity and how we can afford to see ourselves now within that equality and opportunity and dealing with what we are going to do with it.

Originally Posted by outi

I can't understand, why in our dance form dancers become "professionals" very quickly.

We have classes churning out dance hopefuls after a year or so (or even 6 months or so in Sacramento if a young woman is cute). These women are eager for the "prestige" of dancing in restaurants and will take any lousy pay rate because they have no experience, no mentors, no connection to the larger dance community.

The market is flooded and the price and the quality go down. I have been dancing almost 4 years and I have done student showcases and haflas, a festival, had a brief restaurant gig (and another that I bowed out of due to typical restaurant bullsh*t), hired for parties. I can honestly say that I was shocked that certain opportunities came my way at my level of dance--but given what goes on in this town, I guess I'm a helluva lot better than some of the "authentic teacher" sycophants. The paid gigs came to me via word of mouth through one of my instuctors who came from the Bay Area. I am not being down on myself when I say that I am not really ready for a high level of professional dance gigs yet. However, the overall quality is so bad that cheaply bad gigs with mediocre dancers are the norm.

You can see the biggest evidence by looking at Zaheea's post for a Sacramento gig. The qualifications she's looking for just DO NOT exist in town aside from a TINY handful of dancers. It's really sad. I want something to strive for--I want to really work my way up, but it's just class and low-paying restaurant sets.

,m::

In my general area it seems that the instructors who put their dancers in restaurants for money are the ones who maintain a large student base. These same instructors take a cut from the dancers pay, often without the dancers knowledge. Sometimes the instructors keep all the pay and the dancer only dances for tips. These instructors brag that they send their dancers out after 2 months of instruction.

The restaurant owners want dancers with an ethnic look. Long dark hair, brown eyes. Having a large chest and flat uncovered stomach is also preferred. They don't particularly care if the dancer actually "knows" how to dance, just that she looks beautiful and can "shake really fast" for the diners.

The dancers who obtain gigs on their own are auditioned and generally recieve a fair pay.

All of my students, even my troupe members, have no desire to dance individually in a restaruant or anywhere. I have to do alot of talking to convince them to do a (non restaurant) student hafla. Argh!

I would like to echo Outi’s post. I feel that Middle Eastern dance should be treated with the same level of instructional rigor as other dance forms. Over the last few years, my higher-level classes have evolved to be much more structured and demanding than when I began teaching. I realize that I lose some enrollment this way because I don’t hold onto many “hobbyists.” It’s worth it, however, because I want to raise the bar for my students and to gain more respect for the dance in the eyes of the general public.

The difficulty is that many students (not all!) are not willing to accept that for student dancers, instruction should be a higher priority than performance. There is a “have cake, eat it too” mentality among so many belly dance students. There is a great desire to get out there and perform, but a reluctance to accept the level of commitment (class attendance, practice, etc.) that should accompany performance.

As a teacher, this really places me in a bind. I do want to offer level-appropriate performance opportunities. I’ve focused a lot of my energy in developing these kinds of opportunities for my students. However, I feel that even to perform at a student venue such as a hafla or recital, students need to put in some time and effort and take it seriously.

Moreover, in my area, not everyone is so keen on distinguishing what are “student-appropriate” venues. When students see that someone at or below their level of skill and experience is regularly performing at a restaurant or taking private bookings, I’m sure it must be hard for them to understand why should they limit themselves to haflas, recitals and the like. At least in my area, teachers need to SLOW DOWN with their students, stop pushing them out onto stage so soon (even a recital stage). Why do students need to perform after 8 weeks of class??? It's as if teachers feel the need to give students "instant performance gratification" just to keep them in class.

And when the general public, including potential students, sees poorly rehearsed, inexperienced dancers at public festivals, restaurants, and so on, what image of our dance does this convey? Of course it suggests that “anyone can do this dance”…but not in the good, inclusive sense in which this sentiment was originally intended. It’s no longer “anyone can do this dance because we accept a range of ages and body types.” It’s “anyone can do this dance because clearly no technique or ability is required.”

As a side note, I had a call from a potential student the other day who asked me: “After this class [my 12-week basic beginner class], will I be able to belly dance?” I think my eye roll must have been audible…

Nisaa

Hi, Nisaa, good to see you here! You make some excellent points.

I think it's truly possible to have both.

People are able to understand that golf, for instance, tennis. bowling, ballroom dance, flamenco, etc. are all fun hobbies that 'anyone' can do, without assuming there should be professional opportunities for everyone.

Why can't students have fun, play dress-up, dance for each other at private hafla functions and yet still be told that the professional dance world is not for everyone?

My students understand the distinction, but that's partly because I'm very honest with them. There's the 'Bellydance World,' consisting of closed events and a friendly, supportive environment of other hobbyists -- honestly, how demanding ought we to be before we allow students to dance for each other at a VFW hall? (side note - discouraging them from spending lots of money on costuming would go a long way, I think.)

Then there's the 'World of Professional Entertainment,' which is bitterly competitive and filled with people who don't mind telling you that you're too fat, too old, too short, too flat-chested, etc. -- never mind talent & skill!

I don't think it's too confusing to know that these two worlds exist separately, with only a bit of overlap. It's true for musicians, writers, actors, and every other kind of artist, why should it be different for us?

Most of our students don't come to their first class wanting to be great artists OR professional bellydancers, they just want to have fun & get some exercise, feel a little sexy & exotic.

If we don't push them toward professional performance, then would they even think about it? Does everyone who shows up for a parks & rec ceramics class expect to make a living as a potter?

Hi Lauren,
Crossing paths again in cyberspace!

If anything, I try to dissuade students from performing until we mutually agree that they are ready. With respect to those who do choose to perform, I feel as if I'm doing them a disservice if I don't push them to do their best, even in a hafla environment.

I studied flamenco (as a hobby!) for a little over 2 years and my instructor was brutal. After I'd been studying with her for about a year and a half, she did permit me to perform a handful of times at festvals...relatively "safe" environments. However, hobby or no, she pushed me to be my personal best in those performances. I never expected to be a flamenco dancer, but I did want to do my best to represent flamenco as best as I could at my ability level.

Danidance wrote:

I truly believe the dancer in question thinks she's a really good dancer and should be on stage - probably most of that comes from people saying "you were so great" as opposed to anyone pulling her aside and saying, "hey, you need to know...." Everyone thinks the latter is bitchy and horrible, so instead, her head is filled with how fabulous she is.

This, in my opinion, is the heart of the problem we face as a dance community. I believe in creating supportive environments for student dancers as well as up-and-coming pros...but where do we draw the line between being supportive vs. giving dancers-whether student or pro-a false sense of their own abilities?

A word about haflas...I realize "hafla" is defined differently in different ME dance communities. In STL, the hafla is more akin to a showcase. What I think confuses matters for audience members who are non-dancers or beginning-level student dancers at these shows is that the performers are a mix of pros and students. At these events, if I'm accompanied by beginners and/or non-dancers, I always try to clarify who is a student and who is a pro...otherwise the non-dancer or beginner student audience members end up judging the students against the pros, which is not fair to the students at all. In this sense haflas aren't really the "safe" zones we would like them to be.

Nisaa

Just to be clear....

I was definitely, in the quote you pulled out, talking about a specific performance setting that was NOT one that I'd consider a place for beginning dancers or dancers of that skill level.

Definitely wanted to make that distinction, because as Lauren notes, there are venues that are good for encouraging those of us who dance as hobbyists or new dancers.

I realized the quote was probably referring to a pro level setting, and again I agree in offering supportive environments for new dancers to perform, but I do believe that constructive critique (appropriate to the dancer's experience level and goals) is appropriate and needed in the ME dance community.

A small fraction of the students who grow up in those hafla/recital type of environments do harbor ambitions to become professional performers and/or instructors and therefore should be guided with actual critique instead of constant back-patting.

Lots of great views here.
I started dancing in 1993 In Slc, UT there are alot of dancers there and always has been so. I have seen a little bit (16 years) of Belly Dance Evolution (in a modern sense).
And it shall continue to change as dancers build the "Belly World" they want.
I feel that only maby??? 10-15% of the performers make a negotiable amount of money.
I myself treat it as an art business at this point. Saturation will bring on a greater level of demand for professional dancers.
I for one hope to see a bellydancers guilde arise in the future to help standardize wages in some areas and to help businesses with dancer contracts.
Look at the Yoga industry. Well trained Instructors are in demand, reasonably paid and they are also plentiful.

But yoga is not considered a performance art.

Originally Posted by cassiopeia

In my general area it seems that the instructors who put their dancers in restaurants for money are the ones who maintain a large student base. These same instructors take a cut from the dancers pay, often without the dancers knowledge. Sometimes the instructors keep all the pay and the dancer only dances for tips. These instructors brag that they send their dancers out after 2 months of instruction.

The restaurant owners want dancers with an ethnic look. Long dark hair, brown eyes. Having a large chest and flat uncovered stomach is also preferred. They don't particularly care if the dancer actually "knows" how to dance, just that she looks beautiful and can "shake really fast" for the diners.

The dancers who obtain gigs on their own are auditioned and generally recieve a fair pay.

This is EXACTLY what happens with a certain teacher!!!

The yoga world is full of unqualified instructors who attended a weekend workshop (or less), and full of health clubs that want to pay you half what you're worth. Not a good model for us.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

The yoga world is full of unqualified instructors who attended a weekend workshop (or less), and full of health clubs that want to pay you half what you're worth. Not a good model for us.

YUP.....

well i'm going to be devils advocate here; if performing professionally isn't the pinnacle than why is "house wife belly dancer" used as an insult, hhmmm??? tina

People,

It's everywhere. A head-hunter called me the other day to let me know that they were looking for someone with "3-5 years experience" in my field starting out from 70-75K/year. Okay, I have 20+ years experience and don't see much more than that - so WTF? Someone with 3-5 years experience doesn't know jack .... (and I say that with love, but still....).

I'm working on a raise these days. I'm definitely not paid what I'm worth and I'm sick of it.

The fact that students want to perform after a short time wouldn't be an issue if there weren't people ready to hire them, and that's the bigger problem IMO. The demand side of the equation.

I don't work much with a ME/Arab population, so the following applies to my experience with the GP.

Most work comes from people who want you to embarass Uncle Joe at his birthday party. they aren't looking for dance skill, they want a pretty girl in an I Dream of Jeannie costume to give an implied Harem fantasy performance.

Then there's restaurant work, where the dancer is hired to be an 'entertainer -- or moving wallpaper as part of the atmosphere. It wouldn't matter in most cases if the dancer was doing the Hustle, as long as she's a pretty girl wearing a flashy costume and knows how to work a crowd.

I hate to bring Miles Copeland into any conversation, BUT I do share his notion that we need a BD Riverdance to make the general public more aware of what great dancing can look like, to generate interest & raise expectations. Every time a member of the general public sees really GOOD dancing, it helps us all.

And showing student dancing to the public AS IF it were pro level hurts us every time it happens.

(that's why my student show is called a 'recital,' so it's really obvious what this is...)

Having student performances clearly marked as such at haflas is a great start.

I am seriously dying for a local hafla scene. It's pretty dead here in that respect. There are not a lot of "safe" places for students to dance and get performance experience. I am seriously considering doing something, but I just don't know if I can handle the financial strain of it.

Originally Posted by tattood1

well i'm going to be devils advocate here; if performing professionally isn't the pinnacle than why is "house wife belly dancer" used as an insult, hhmmm??? tina

I would suggest that those who use "house wife belly dancer" as an insult are contributing to the problem because they create dissatisfaction in students' minds with the idea of being a hobbyist.

Originally Posted by Lucinia

This thread is spawned by an article I read in the Belly Dancer Magazine written by Morocco, Titled, If prices are up all over, why are oriental dancers getting less?

Lets face it.. There are too many of us.. Each day thousands enter the classroom to learn and thousands join the ranks to perform. Everyone wants their moment of glory and fame. Everyone it seems wants to perform and get paid. As our numbers grow our rate of pay will go down. Everywhere I turn in my own city I see another student or professional dancer going here and there to class or a gig. Like any other business when demand is low and supply is plentiful prices fall.... Just like any industry there comes a time when we need to curb supply inorder to keep rates high..... get where I'm going with this.

comments please.... for stimulating conversation.

I encourage everyone who wants to try bellydance to go for it. Even if you never perform, just going to class and learning this artform can be very rewarding.

Most people will not put in the required work and expense to develop themselves into a professional. I don't think people need to fear that much competition. Besides, if there's more competition, it just means work harder to distinguish yourself.

Besides, look at actors/actresses. There are thousands of them, and most have to subside on other jobs. But those who do succeed in Hollywood make tons of money.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

My students understand the distinction, but that's partly because I'm very honest with them. There's the 'Bellydance World,' consisting of closed events and a friendly, supportive environment of other hobbyists -- honestly, how demanding ought we to be before we allow students to dance for each other at a VFW hall? (side note - discouraging them from spending lots of money on costuming would go a long way, I think.)

Some very good points in all these posts. I agree - I don't think most people want to become professionals. . when I was a newbie dancer, I really wanted to try out my moves - with other people dancing ina social situation - not on a stage. I really enjoyed the effort that went into the annual recital, but I couldn't picture myself ever dancing in a restaurant. I don't know what happened though because somehow I got bit by the bug that made me want to perform, build a dance studio in my house, and own lots of costumes. What can I say? But among many of the people I've met in the classes I take, I'm the unusual one in that I've taken it this far.

To this costuming comment, I wanted to say - I think there's a certain association between amazing costume and professional dancer. But, like the person who buys a high-end digital SLR just to take family snapshots - we don't expect everyone who buys a high-end camera to be a professional photographer. If a student has the disposable income to buy an expensive costume, well - they should go for it. You don't have to justify a great costume by dancing in it in a professional setting.

my own confession -
I have a lot of beautiful evening gowns and I only go to a few formal events per year. But I have loved evening gowns since I played with barbies so whenever I see a cool one on sale at Filene's Basement, I add it to my collection. ..l;,

trouble is you tell the "truth" (which i do) & you do not maintain students or maintain them for long. teachers who dangle a possible pro career with a dose of goddess whoo whoo ta boot seem to be the most successful. of course the only one making money is teacher selling glitter dot /tissue lame' cossie for essentially student shows on off nights at her restaurants.

i will state again if people (yes even bhuzzers do this) didn't sneer at house wife, hobby bders in their glitter dot/ tissue lame' cossies maybe people would feel the pressure to be a pro of some sort. tina