Thread: Territory

Need some advice here.
Living up in humble northern New England I've been very fortunate to live and play in a friendly, non-competative belly dance world. The population is so spread out here its like we have pockets of dancers here and there. I live in the southern part of the state and have a very successful troupe and private practice. Occassionally I or my troupe will be invited to perform in areas where other dancers have already established themselves professionally. Sometimes when the client realizes they'll have to pay my travel fees they'll ask if there is anyone closer and I will galdly refer them to their local dancer, other times they say " I know so and so is in this area but we really want you" so I take their business.
I was just contacted by the entertainment manager for a new casino that is opening in the northern part of the state--where I have many dance buddies.
They want to bring my troupe in for their grand opening and possibly book some stage shows with us as well. :Aconfused: I feel like I'm backstabbing my friends/colleagues who have established themselves in that area, and are VERY visible.
Am I skeezy if I take this work??
What would you do?
I think maybe if the casino wants an ongoing engagement I would refer them to someone local because I wouldn't want to travel 4 hrs round trip each time I had a gig there. If I do take the gig, I would talk to my dance buddies up there about the fact that I'd been brought up to their territory so it was at least out in the open. But would it be morally and ethically wrong to take a one time gig there?

Yes. It would. I think I need to refer the booking agent to their local dancers first and if they still want to hire me after talking to their local options then I would go.
The talent in that area is amazing and I know I would feel like WTF if the shoe was on the other foot.
Agree? Disagree?

well, aside from ethical, and your own personal moral concerns (which i applaud, btw.....some people wouldn't even blink), you've brought up a valid point about the sheer logistics ..............4 HOURS! wow!

actually, i think you should have a pow-wow with the dancers in that area, as i'm sure they'd share the 'territory' gladly if you're in town, or occasionally, knowing you feel so strongly about this.........

I think communication is the key. I would take the initial gig but inform your fellow dancers that you are helping to "break the ice" for them. Maybe your fellow dancers can meet the owner, during your gig and make formal introductions.

I realize you live in a non-competitive area and I admire you honoring the "code" that so many do not follow but - what would another dance troupe do in your shoes? What if the owner contacted another troupe that was 5 hours away? I think you need to think what is best for you and how this exposure will benefit your troupe and all your bellydance associates in the area. They contacted you so they want you. Use this opportunity to break the ice. Use this opportunity to introduce new dancers (if you choose).

You never know - they may end up contacting other dancers that are not so honorable. Take control.

Territory is a strange concept in dance. I feel a little twinge when I find out dancers from other areas are performing in my back yard -- but I get over it really quickly because of course it's my responsibility to promote myself, and the customer is free to hire whomever they want.

I don't think you're under any obligation not to take the gig. It would be a service to both the customer and the other dancers to tell him that you're having to charge XX for mileage (and rooms?) so he can look for someone local, or ask you for a referral.

But I don't think it's necessary to turn down a gig when someone contacts you. I certainly wouldn't expect (and have never received) that kind of consideration from other dancers.

You *could* perhaps offer to include local dancers in your show, especially if it becomes an ongoing thing. However, you'd then have the job of deciding who would reflect well on your troupe onstage, and undoubtedly you'd wind up stirring up more bad feelings than if you just took the gig and did it.

Of course, on the other hand, you might want to refer the job just because it's so far away. Sometimes a gig is way more hassle than it's worth.

I agree with Lauren.

I googled your name, and I also googled "belly dancer + New England + Maine."

You've promoted yourself well, and I enjoyed your youtube video.

I'm sure this client did some research, looking for belly dancers. Not all dancers dance alike, or have the same level of professionalism. They liked what they saw, and want YOU.

Don't feel bad for the others. If they want gigs, then they should have a youtube clip, that states they are in the New England area, and are available for shows.
This still doesn't mean they'd get the job.

There are a lot of dancers on youtube, that I wouldn't hire. I can tell they need more practice. I'm not going to post here who they are (I need more practice myself).

Why promote yourself, only to refer other dancer (that aren't promoting themselves, or may not have the image the client wants to PAY for)?

But, if it make you feel that bad, then include some of the local dancers.
Hopefully they won't mind taking direction from you, (choreography, music, etc); because this is YOUR gig, and YOUR responsibility, because YOUR the one they wanted.

Hi Nayastrance,
I think professional dancers (charging money for gigs) should follow standard business practices in general. It is not standard to give a competitor first right of refusal on a job. It is not immoral or unethical to take a gig that has been offered in a geographic location other than where you normally dance. In fact, I think when we start engaging in non-standard business practices, even with the best of intentions, is when the door to drama opens, because not everyone shares the same belief systems, i.e. sense of community-building, obligations to others, etc.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I don't think you're under any obligation not to take the gig. It would be a service to both the customer and the other dancers to tell him that you're having to charge XX for mileage (and rooms?) so he can look for someone local, or ask you for a referral.

Sometimes I get inquiries about gigs in Chicago, and this is the approach I take. I let them know that there are some fantastic dancers in in Chicago, and that they could easily get a high quality performer for less than I would charge with the millage thrown in. Chicago rates are higher than Milwaukee, and by the time I met the local rates and added mileage, they'd be paying a mighty princely sum for little old me. I'll even go so far as to recommend specific dancers close to their area (North side, West side, etc.).

Now, if for some reason they really wanted me specifically, and were willing to pony up the $$$, of course I'd take the gig. I wouldn't expect that any of my Chicago peeps would have a problem with that, as long as I was charging local rates.

I got googled! Giggle.
Thanks for all the advice. I really like the suggestions about using the gig as an opportunity to break ice. AND you're all right, there are some other dancers whose standards are not as high and will take any and every job, right out from under you. We have some right here in Lobsterland and they absolutely would be opportunistic and snatch up this work.
I did speak with agent and decided to promote my own troupe first and mentioned that there is some amazing local talent as well that I would be happy to refer her to. She wants my troupe, so..we'll see how it pans out.

Good luck and remember, it isn't always a bad thing to toot your own horn!

good for you! I think you made a wonderful decision :-)

I'm not quite sure about the concept of "territory" in this case.
If I found out that someone is dancing in a restaurant in my part of town, could I say anything? No! I don't own this part of San Diego, no one owns anything.

If someone contact you from north, even though there are dancers there, it doesn't mean that you took jobs away from them. he client wants you. If you choose to drive 4 hours roundtrip because the client is willing to pay for your travel and time, and you want to do it, I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
If someone accepted a job in your area, would you be upset? Could you?

I'm gonna be the lone voice of capitalism and the free market here, but take the gig! They contacted YOU, didn't they? So jump on the opportunity.

I've honestly never met a group of businesspeople who hold such a conflicted view on competition as bellydancers. Competition is a fact of life in every other industry, and as long as you're not stepping on bodies or giving happy endings or anything like that, things like this shouldn't be an issue. But when we establish "community" rules and alliances, it can be a slippery slope to clique politics and nasty territorial behavior. If our ethics were based on sound and realistic business principles as opposed to 100% group loyalty, a grand "sisterhood," and other utopian constructs, then I have a feeling a lot of the tension, dividedness and conflict we experience would be dramatically decreased.

This is where bellydance business tactics really nauseate me sometimes, though I'm sure many of you will beg to differ with me.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I'm gonna be the lone voice of capitalism and the free market here, but take the gig! They contacted YOU, didn't they? So jump on the opportunity.

I've honestly never met a group of businesspeople who hold such a conflicted view on competition as bellydancers. Competition is a fact of life in every other industry, and as long as you're not stepping on bodies or giving happy endings or anything like that, things like this shouldn't be an issue. But when we establish "community" rules and alliances, it can be a slippery slope to clique politics and nasty territorial behavior. If our ethics were based on sound and realistic business principles as opposed to 100% group loyalty, a grand "sisterhood," and other utopian constructs, then I have a feeling a lot of the tension, dividedness and conflict we experience would be dramatically decreased.

This is where bellydance business tactics really nauseate me sometimes, though I'm sure many of you will beg to differ with me.

Just to clarify my own position, there's a few reasons I do the referring thing for Chicago gigs (or any other area where I know there to be good local dancers):

- Customer service for the client. Somehow these people wind up at my website instead of finding one of the zillion Chicago area dancers, and seem to think they have to bring me down from Milwaukee to have a Belly Dancer at their party. I have a problem pretending that that's the case, when I know there's a pro dancer living in their backyard.

- Quid Pro Quo - it works the other way around, too. I've had referrals from Chicago dancers for Milwaukee or other WI gigs, presumably because of my back scratching nature. ..g.:

- A lot of the inquiries I get are for BellyGrams, which for me are less just two short songs. Even if they're paying me the going rate for my time and mileage, I really don't want to have to get ready and drive nearly 2 hours in costume to dance for 10 minutes at a birthday party. Like Lauren mentioned, sometimes it's just not worth the effort even if the money is good.

In my particular situation, I feel a real debt to the Chicago dance community. They gave me so many opportunities to learn and perform when I was developing as a dancer, so if I can throw a gig or two their way, I'm more than happy to. If that makes me a granola crunching hippy, so be it.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I'm gonna be the lone voice of capitalism and the free market here, but take the gig!

Isn't that pretty much what we all said?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Isn't that pretty much what we all said?

Yes. LOL.

I started typing this post around 10 a.m. when the thread was fresh and new, got distracted by work-related tasks (God forbid!), and by 3:00 when I posted, I was joined by several other eager capitalists ..l;,

So I stand corrected, I am not the only one on this thread who feels this way. More detailed post to come later.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Yes. LOL.

I started typing this post around 10 a.m. when the thread was fresh and new, got distracted by work-related tasks (God forbid!), and by 3:00 when I posted, I was joined by several other eager capitalists ..l;,

So I stand corrected, I am not the only one on this thread who feels this way. More detailed post to come later.

..l;, So funny, I've done that sort of thing before. OK, your post makes more sense now -- I thought maybe what I'd written wasn't conveying what I meant!

The question posed in this thread reminds me a bit of another thread that was posted a very long time ago -- probably when I first started Bhuzzing!

Someone wanted to know if she should get permission to begin teaching in a new-for-her area. I just about swallowed my tongue! From whom does one get permission? Why would one need to seek permission to begin work in any area? Does the owner of a hardware store ask permission of other hardware store owners before deciding to open for business? Do doctors and lawyers seek out the big-wigs on the block before opening a practice?

Sorry . . . I think I might be coming off as a bit over-excited . . .

Just to beat an already-dead horse: there is no moral or ethical reason in the world for you to offer this gig to someone else just because the gig is outside your usual performing area. The only reason you should not take a gig under these circumstances is because you don't want to take it; you owe nothing to the dancers from that area: you were called and you have the option of accepting or declining it for any number of practical reasons, but never think you shouldn't accept a gig because of non-existent ethical reasons. There are simply no moral or ethical cunundrums in this situation!

Have a great time and knock their socks off!

Deborah

Originally Posted by CFerhat

Hi Nayastrance,
I think professional dancers (charging money for gigs) should follow standard business practices in general. It is not standard to give a competitor first right of refusal on a job. It is not immoral or unethical to take a gig that has been offered in a geographic location other than where you normally dance. In fact, I think when we start engaging in non-standard business practices, even with the best of intentions, is when the door to drama opens, because not everyone shares the same belief systems, i.e. sense of community-building, obligations to others, etc.

I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Why would one need to seek permission to begin work in any area? Does the owner of a hardware store ask permission of other hardware store owners before deciding to open for business? Do doctors and lawyers seek out the big-wigs on the block before opening a practice?

Uh-oh. Some other construction company is building a house on the same street that my boss is building on. And he didn't even drop by our office and plead to my boss to pleeeeeeeease accept him into the divine yoni sisterhood of contractors. The NERVE!

.p::

..l;,

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Uh-oh. Some other construction company is building a house on the same street that my boss is building on. And he didn't even drop by our office and plead to my boss to pleeeeeeeease accept him into the divine yoni sisterhood of contractors. The NERVE!

.p::

..l;,

OMIGOSH! You're kidding . . . .w.:



Deborah

Although I completely agree that nobody needs to get "permission"...I do think that most businesses need take the market into consideration when they open their doors. If you are entering a saturated market, you need to consider your niche. What makes you different and unique? Why open a hardware store right next door to another hardware store. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

Nayastrance & troupe obviously fit a particular niche...hence the offer for the performance despite the distance.

And there are times when professionals in the area do need to work together...so it's nice to at least be aware of what it means to "play nice in the sandbox." This doesn't mean you do/don't take jobs based on whose toes you might step on...but it does mean that you don't take jobs out from under others.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with SatinWorship and everyone else who has said there is nothing wrong with taking a gig.

I also think all these conflicted feelings about sisterhood, community, etc. arise because we have no distinct line between amateur and professional.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I also think all these conflicted feelings about sisterhood, community, etc. arise because we have no distinct line between amateur and professional.

So true, when you must nurture both your friendships and your bottom line. This is why I'm friendly and respectful toward other dancers, but keep all dealings strictly business and don't let myself get too close. Also, I'd rather get gigs because I'm in demand by clients, not because I'm part of the right clique or I scratched some local bigshot's back. This may be the longer road to success, but I am allergic to brownnosing, terrible at being good friends with women (so catty!), and stubborn about getting ahead on my own merit ..l;,

I think for others, a healthy sense of community is key. Bear in mind that your "dance sisters" are, in the most matter-of-fact sense of the word, still your business competitors. You can't always expect your colleagues to come through for you when everybody's got a bottom line to watch after.

Perhaps, bellydancers would have a healthier sense of business relations if they worked in real estate, law, P.R., finances, the stock market, or any other "dirty" job. That'll teach you not to form mystical ya-ya sisterhoods with your colleagues.......l;, .w.:

Lisa, aka The Wall Street Bellydancer

Oh, and P.S. - when I refer to watching out for the bottom line, I mean that in a much less shallow or cutthroat way than it probably sounds. Even the most honorable professions must take measures to make sure that their business stays afloat and they can provide for themselves and/or families.

Just wanted to clarify....before I go practice my "greed is good" speech in front of the mirror.

All I have to add is that, while I agree that sometimes sending a potential client to a local dancer may be good customer service (e.g. when someone genuinely doesn't know there are local options, as in Laura's example above), I think referring a client to a local dancer could also come off as rude in other circumstances.

In your case, you've been contacted by the entertainment manager of a big casino in an area where you say there are several very visible professional dancers. I would be really surprised if a full-time entertainment manager hadn't researched sufficiently to uncover these well-promoted local options, but they've chosen your group instead because, for one reason or another, they must feel you would better meet the casino's needs. To refer this person back to those other options is to suggest that they're not capable of doing their own job: finding the entertainment that best suits their company's requirements.

Well, just to add another thought on this... in my day job, which is about as far from bellydance as can be, our biggest competitors are also our most important collaborators. That is, on some contracts we compete fiercely - but fairly - with each other for the work. Other contracts that come up, my company can't do it alone so we seek out alliances with those very same competitors for the project.

Point being, collaboration w/competitors is a valid and useful business tool, but in my opinion it is best used when chosen for one's own business reasons, rather than chosen because of how we think others might feel about a situation. A dancer who is impeccable in her business dealings, and agile enough to be able to evaluate competitive vs. collaborative opportunities, will likely have greater success than someone who believes this is an either/or proposition.

Just my 2cents. :)
Christine

maybe they want your style, not theirs!
clients are very open where we are, as to what they do and do not want.
so, ask them if they are looking for a certain style/look

Very interesting ideas, CFerhat. I suppose a great deal of my cynicism comes from having been burned badly by collaborators in the past, which is unfortunate: I can think of several instances where collaborating with your colleagues can be tremendously successful and helpful.

I also think that the interpersonal dynamics of your local community are a big factor in whether or not you can facilitate such a collaboration. Some communities are very cool, open-minded and willing to exchange ideas. If your community more closely resembles a herd of cats (or an 8th grade slumber party), professional collaboration can be an exercise in total futility. ..c::

I'm from the area in question, and we do live in a sort of Utopian Ra-Ra Sisterhood, especially in this particular region, because there's basically *No Money* here. For the most part, dance can only be a semi-lucrative hobby at best. Until now, it seems. This is not exactly a "big casino" we're talking about--casinos only became legal in the state a couple of years ago, and the town had to vote to approve this one being built!

I really really hope our collaborative community doesn't lose what makes it special. (The very fact that Nayastrance even thought twice about the situation shows you how unique this place is.)

That said, take the gig, honey! You and your troupe have worked long and hard and spent real hard cash to get where you are. And just talk to the locals (you know who they are) if you feel like you can't travel that far on a regular basis. Or give the promoter some names and have them audition. It's nice to be "open" about the situation, but it's not your job to worry about it.

Best of luck!
Mira