Thread: Spinoff: How Much is a Picture Worth? (And Don't Tell Me 1,000 Words)

If you would be so kind as to divulge the details: how much did you spend, or would you spend, on your promotional photos?

You may think I'm off my rocker, but there's a good possibility I'll book a shoot that will go for $1,000. The photographer doesn't generally shoot for the "G.P.," as he does mainly fashion/editorial/lifestyle work, but likes to make exceptions for artists who use the pictures for professional purposes. His pictures have this great easygoing elegance and would fit right in in a glossy magazine. I love them.

I've been grumbling all afternoon while poring through portfolios of local photographers. They all either look very amateurish, very Glamor Shots at the Mall, or totally wedding cheeseball. Slim pickings when it comes to the particular look I have in mind.

I think I'll feel better if I'm not the only one going all out for promo pics. Or you may also feel free to slap some sense into me for being so indulgent.

Where do pics and promo materials fall into your personal budget? Do you save? Do you splurge? Big spenders, was it worth it?

Let's talk!

Lisa

Ok, IMHO $1000 is crazy!! From my experience, a great photog will charge around $300-400 for a session. There is no way I would pay $1,000, especially with someone who is not used to shooting bder's as I think you need a special skill to shoot dancers (so you don't end up with the cheesy glamour shots look). Sarah Skinner is obviously a great example of that, and I can tell you her fee is no where near $1,000!

I do think you are off your rocker.

Well, I don't think you're off your rocker.
I mean, I really don't think I would spend $1,000. on photos, but then I haven't seen the work of this photographer.
If you truly love the work I don't see how it is any more crazy than spending the $1,000. (or more) on a Sahar or Bella. Many dancers will never spend that much on a costume either, but there are also plenty who do!
After all the pics will (hopefully!) work for you in terms of promotion as well being a beautiful keepsake.

I would hope for $1000 you are getting high res images...
I don't photograph dancers, but am a portrait and wedding photographer. I would spend a couple hundred dollars for photos....You have to look around and find a photographer that suits your taste and what you want to get for the money. I would rather pay more for great photos, then less for Walmart looking ones...

$1000 seems like a lot...but if it is a "famous fashion photographer" then that is probably what they charge. Some photogs are worth it...LOL

I was also curious what is included for this price. How much studio time, number of images etc.,

Funny, I just happened recently to be perusing the site of an NY photographer who's most basic package for photos is $900.

My first time I spent 300ish for the photographer and 280 on my hair and make-up artist. Worth it.

Since then I've landed some good free shoots and have befriended a rotating group of photographers who swap photo for model time.

Tried to PM you - your box is full. Check out Jerry Bezdikian - Stellar Indigo - he has a wonderful website. He did my profile pic and the gold set in my gallery. He takes photos which are incredible and then for an added fee he transforms a photo into a work of art.

Thanks for all your input, guys - EVEN you, Daniela, for telling me I'm off my rocker ..l;,

Mariyah, it's funny. I was thinking exactly what you said about Sahars, on my way home from work. I'd much rather drop $1,000 on beautiful, flawless promo pics that will (hopefully) show me off at my best, attract high-end clientele and ultimately pay for themselves, than on one Bella or Sahar, or even two Hannans.

The going rate for photogs of any decent quality around here seems to be at least $700. There's a big jump from bargain basement photographers to the creme de la creme, and very little in between that's not mediocre quality.

It's just interesting to see how we each lay out our food chain of business priorities. Some of us spend more $$$ on our websites. Some of us are addicted to costumes. Others of us have the luxury of no day job, and therefore all the time in the world to self-market and less of a need for slick promo materials. I don't think any expenditure is right or wrong. Whatever is within your means and successful for you.

PM'ed you re: Jerry Bezdikian, Surida.

The most I have ever spent on a single shoot is $300 and I never shoot with photogs who normally shoot bders. Even the editorial fashion photographer did not charge me $1,000.
That strikes me as quite esspensive. And does not even include hair or makeup?
You sure you don't wanna book us?? ..g.:

Candy Azh, you know I would book you and Cassie for Raq the Camera CT in an instant if I had the time and ambition to plan any sort of event. I'm so jealous of the D.C. girls. They sound like they had such a great time!

Where do you find such cheap fashion/editorial photogs, Azh? $300 is dirt cheap. Even garden variety boring wedding photographers around here START at $600. Is the Philly/NJ area cheaper? Should I set my sights on the Jersey Shore? ..g.:

I'm beginning to think, once again, that my problem comes back to the all around uber-lameness of Connecticut...or, at least, it's always a convenient excuse. ,r:;

On the other hand, I also happen to catch up and coming photogs before they start charging tha sh*t.

I'm not one to tell people what to do. You do what your gut tells you.

Mon grain du sel...I think for $1,000 you can pay for roundtrip transport to NYC, get shot by Lina Jang, AND have your hair & makeup done.

Also, what is it that appeals to you about the rocky beach? Is someone hiring you, the dancer, or you and the scenery behind you? I had fun shooting my stuff with Jason and it was actually his idea to shoot "down da shoor" but it's my studio shots that get the reactions (and subsequent gigs). I can also milk them for awhile. That is my own experience. The time between really good shoots for me has been a matter of years. I know there are many dancers who have wonderful, outdoor settings for their shoots and they get hired, too, though.

It all just depends on how you want to frame things and how you frame the thing you framed, if that makes sense.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

It's just interesting to see how we each lay out our food chain of business priorities. Some of us spend more $$$ on our websites. Some of us are addicted to costumes. Others of us have the luxury of no day job, and therefore all the time in the world to self-market and less of a need for slick promo materials. I don't think any expenditure is right or wrong. Whatever is within your means and successful for you.

PM'ed you re: Jerry Bezdikian, Surida.

I find your "luxury" statement irritating. Every full-time working dancer/teacher I know busts her butt to make it happen without the benefits and security of working for someone else...and you better believe you need top-notch promotional materials when your dance business is putting food on the table.

Being a dance entrepreneur is a "real" day job, thank you.

~~Kimahri

I catch your drift

See, I think part of my wanting a gorgeous outdoor shoot has to do with the rebellious side of me that wants to do the complete opposite of what everybody else does. Black backdrops, soft-focus lighting and drama poses make my eyes glaze over. Everybody does that. It's fine for others, but kinda tired to me. Don't clients get bored looking at the saaaaame exact thing, dancer after dancer? The bellydance world is chock full of cliches and I'm taking great pains to avoid them as I put together my promo materials.

Also, I tend to like things in settings and in context, and I like things that are high-concept. Posing in front of a black screen just feels like being in a vacuum to me. OK, I'm here. Here's my costume. I want to get hired. What's next?

If I could find a super creative dance photog who could do something unusual in a studio and make me feel like a bazillion bucks, count me in. 'Til then, I'm having a hard time feeling especially moved by what's out there. Definitely reconsidering, between this thread and the outdoor shots thread. Sounds like I might have to bite the bullet and go for what's tried and true and quasi-boring. There has to be a happy medium.

Perhaps, I should just go on America's Next Top Model so I can get pictures taken on beaches, in gardens, under graffiti'd overpasses, with naked men, on the wing of a plane, etc., without raising any eyebrows ..g.:

Have you ever done a dance photoshoot? It might take a shoot or two to really get the feel for how best to express yourself, your art, your likes and dislikes when it comes to shoot interactions...and for that reason alone I'd find spending THAT much money on a first shoot a little insane.

Originally Posted by Kimahri

I find your "luxury" statement irritating. Every full-time working dancer/teacher I know busts her butt to make it happen without the benefits and security of working for someone else...and you better believe you need top-notch promotional materials when your dance business is putting food on the table.

Being a dance entrepreneur is a "real" day job, thank you.

~~Kimahri

Wow, that really didn't come out right on my end of things. What I meant was that it would be nice to have tons of free time to go out and pound the pavement. I work 9-5, have a pretty aggravating day job, and a 1.5-hour commute to and from work each day. Burnout inducing, to say the least, and by the time you factor in practicing and taking classes, leaves little time to to the legwork that full-time dancers can do whenever they choose. I'm not knocking that by any means, because I am completely envious of the fact that full-time dancers can set aside a large chunk of time to work on marketing, networking, and the business end of things.

So at the end of the day, since my website will be a predominant means of reeling in new clients, I really want to stress that everything looks super slick. I didn't mean that full-time dancers have no need to stress professional marketing. In fact, that statement wasn't even aimed at full-timers. Just an observation that I, personally, feel a need to make up for lacking the ability to split myself in two and simultaneously work 9-5 and network with restaurant owners, potential clients, new studios to teach at, event planners, etc.

I guess it's the whole "grass is always greener" syndrome. After reading some controversial articles about members of BDSS who got injured on the job and didn't have insurance to cover their medical costs, it doesn't make dancing for a living sound glamorous or luxurious. I have excellent benefits, a stable job, a decent salary, and a very cool boss: I think if I had to put food on my table with my dancing for a week, it would probably scare the living crap out of me. Essentially, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't dance full time: if you do, you miss security. If you don't, you miss the feeling of 100% devotion.

Once again, I apologize. I literally think I was half asleep, not thinking, or otherwise talking out of my ass when I typed that statement.

Originally Posted by Kimahri

I find your "luxury" statement irritating. Every full-time working dancer/teacher I know busts her butt to make it happen without the benefits and security of working for someone else...and you better believe you need top-notch promotional materials when your dance business is putting food on the table.

Being a dance entrepreneur is a "real" day job, thank you.

~~Kimahri

I agree! I think the ladies that DON'T have the luxury of a day job need the best marketing materials!! This is their livelihood - if they don't advertise themselves well, they ain't gonna make it.

I think it's us ladies who are stuck behind a desk from 9-5 who have the "luxury" of knowing when our next paycheck is coming in!

Here in pricey DC, my half of a recent two-dancer shoot with three costume changes each, all 200 or so of my shots (good, bad, and indifferent) provided in hi-res on CD, and editing of four shots to print/web standard came to $250, or just under $300 if you add in the studio rental. And I own the rights. If you add in professional hairstyling and a new Eman, I still get a whole lot of change from that $1000 bill. The professional photographer is also a professional ballet dancer and specializes in photographing dance; he's new to bellydance but great to work with and an expert at capturing movement.

Granted they're only kinda tired, clichéd, tried-and-true, quasi-boring studio shots taken in a vacuum against a (white) backdrop, so I'm sure they'd make your eyes glaze over, but I'm very pleased with the results.

Originally Posted by ozma

It might take a shoot or two to really get the feel for how best to express yourself, your art, your likes and dislikes when it comes to shoot interactions...and for that reason alone I'd find spending THAT much money on a first shoot a little insane.

Agree.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I agree! I think the ladies that DON'T have the luxury of a day job need the best marketing materials!! This is their livelihood - if they don't advertise themselves well, they ain't gonna make it.

I think it's us ladies who are stuck behind a desk from 9-5 who have the "luxury" of knowing when our next paycheck is coming in!

Yeah, or knowing that we can still hobble to work on crutches and get paid if we break a leg. Reading about Tamalyn Dallal and Sheri Wheatley of BDSS was heartbreaking. I think I'll take dealing with unruly subcontractors, bazillionaires trying to get stuff for free, and being stuck at a desk all day....job security is quite plush in comparison.

Really, this was one of those times when I honestly had no idea how callous I sounded until somebody pointed it out and I reread what I wrote. My foot has been firmly planted in my mouth for about 15 minutes now.

Originally Posted by ozma

Have you ever done a dance photoshoot? It might take a shoot or two to really get the feel for how best to express yourself, your art, your likes and dislikes when it comes to shoot interactions...and for that reason alone I'd find spending THAT much money on a first shoot a little insane.

You really do bring up a good point....

I think the verdict so far is to shop around some more. And then buy a new Legend or two with the money that I saved ..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

God, I'm bad.

Really, thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm sure I could do better

i'd say how much you spend really depends on exactly how you plan on using your photos...my friends who are acting/modeling easily put out $500-600 for current headshots every so often...just make sure that what you get at the end of the day makes sense with the amount of money you're asking for...i would also check whether the artist's "eye" lines up with your preferred aesthetic...

on a side note, i just did a shoot with pixie (Pixie Vision Productions Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York Professional Photography) and it was a really amazing experience...didn't get my final pics back yet, but i am absolutely in love with what i've seen already...i know she's touring a few cities, and i'd definitely recommend getting some time in with her if you could swing it!...

Wow, I forgot about Pixie. Now there's a possibility......g.:

Arrrrrgh! Let's try this again:

I f-o-r-g-o-t about Pixie.

Stupid Bhuz.

pixie = fabulous.
and FAST.
2 costumes in an hour, almost 350 pictures...i can't tell you how hard it was to sort through it all...
...she knew how to pull what she wanted from me to get the pictures we wanted, and i don't feel like i left with portraits from the mall. ;)

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Black backdrops, soft-focus lighting and drama poses make my eyes glaze over. Everybody does that. It's fine for others, but kinda tired to me. Don't clients get bored looking at the saaaaame exact thing, dancer after dancer? The bellydance world is chock full of cliches and I'm taking great pains to avoid them as I put together my promo materials.

Hmm, then perhaps asking other belly dancers for advice is not your best bet. I imagine many of us dabble in said clichés, occasionally deliberately, perhaps even playfully, and maybe often unwittingly.

That said, in my experience $1000 is very, very high for a plain old solo photo shoot, especially one early in a dancer's career that s/he is paying for.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I catch your drift

See, I think part of my wanting a gorgeous outdoor shoot has to do with the rebellious side of me that wants to do the complete opposite of what everybody else does. Black backdrops, soft-focus lighting and drama poses make my eyes glaze over. Everybody does that. It's fine for others, but kinda tired to me. Don't clients get bored looking at the saaaaame exact thing, dancer after dancer? The bellydance world is chock full of cliches and I'm taking great pains to avoid them as I put together my promo materials.

Also, I tend to like things in settings and in context, and I like things that are high-concept. Posing in front of a black screen just feels like being in a vacuum to me. OK, I'm here. Here's my costume. I want to get hired. What's next?

But the context you need to be selling is that you'll work well in the context your potential customer needs. There are bad and dull bellydance pictures out there, but the thing that should really be the central focus is the dancer and his/her personality (or vibe, or professionalism or whatever) not the setting...in good studio shots you're not paying attention to the studio.

People hiring dancers are not looking at page after page, they're looking pretty quickly most of the time and studio shoots tend to look more professional to the GP...although there are always exceptions and I know many Bhuzzers with lovely outdoor shots (like Eshe...but Nam could shoot her looking glam in a dustbowl...and her nature shots are not what she pulls out first for potential clients)

The other reason why there are not a ton of outdoor shoots isn't because there aren't a bunch of dancers who want them, but because without a very good photographer who understanding lighting conditions/nature conditions outdoors they have a large margin of error for looking DIY in a bad way...

With outdoor pictures there's the risk of light, wind, weather...

We did some on a beach in Hawai'i and I could only stand one way because the wind was blowing so strong. And every few minutes we had to wait for a cloud to go away from the sun.
Plus we had to watch out for shadows in the face.
The pictures are cool, but more from an "art" point of view. Not really what I would put on a flyer.

(You can see them here, scroll down a bit: Galerie Raqs Sharqi)

The studio photos cost about 500 $. And this is high-salary Switzerland! So I too think that $ 1000.- would be expensive.
Professional photographers usually don't work for individuals but for corporate clients. THEY have the money to pay that much.

MEISSOUN

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Wow, that really didn't come out right on my end of things. What I meant was that it would be nice to have tons of free time to go out and pound the pavement. I work 9-5, have a pretty aggravating day job, and a 1.5-hour commute to and from work each day. Burnout inducing, to say the least, and by the time you factor in practicing and taking classes, leaves little time to to the legwork that full-time dancers can do whenever they choose. I'm not knocking that by any means, because I am completely envious of the fact that full-time dancers can set aside a large chunk of time to work on marketing, networking, and the business end of things.

So at the end of the day, since my website will be a predominant means of reeling in new clients, I really want to stress that everything looks super slick. I didn't mean that full-time dancers have no need to stress professional marketing. In fact, that statement wasn't even aimed at full-timers. Just an observation that I, personally, feel a need to make up for lacking the ability to split myself in two and simultaneously work 9-5 and network with restaurant owners, potential clients, new studios to teach at, event planners, etc.

I guess it's the whole "grass is always greener" syndrome. After reading some controversial articles about members of BDSS who got injured on the job and didn't have insurance to cover their medical costs, it doesn't make dancing for a living sound glamorous or luxurious. I have excellent benefits, a stable job, a decent salary, and a very cool boss: I think if I had to put food on my table with my dancing for a week, it would probably scare the living crap out of me. Essentially, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't dance full time: if you do, you miss security. If you don't, you miss the feeling of 100% devotion.

Off topic: But my favorite option to be would be working part-time, like 20-25 hours a week at a cush nonprofit job (still get benefits) and then focus on dance for the other part of the work week! Yeah, um we'll see, maybe when I get married we could swing that!

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Off topic: But my favorite option to be would be working part-time, like 20-25 hours a week at a cush nonprofit job (still get benefits) and then focus on dance for the other part of the work week! Yeah, um we'll see, maybe when I get married we could swing that!

Ooooooh, that would be nice. I'd take that scenario in a heartbeat if I could also win the lottery or inherit a huge sum of money from the passing of a rich relative I didn't know I had. Since I'm too cynical to factor marriage into my Big Picture, and all ..l;,

Heck, even taking a week off from work would be ideal at this point.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I catch your drift

See, I think part of my wanting a gorgeous outdoor shoot has to do with the rebellious side of me that wants to do the complete opposite of what everybody else does. Black backdrops, soft-focus lighting and drama poses make my eyes glaze over. Everybody does that. It's fine for others, but kinda tired to me.

But the thing is, it seems from what other professionals are saying, it's the studio shots that sell. You'll have to decide what's more important to you, creating an non-traditional image that may or may not produce gigs, or going with the type of photos that - from what others are saying - are what the GP see as "professional" and do produce the gigs. Going in a completely different direction may be good for the ego, not so much for the bank account - you will have to evaluate if that risk is a good one for your business to take.

Consumer behavior is interesting - many prefer the high-end of what is familiar, they aren't actually looking for groundbreaking. Not sure how "edgy" your target market is, but you might want to keep that in consideration as you develop your marketing materials.