Thread: pay the dancers - spinoff - hafla's and shows by dancers for dancers

this is kind of a different discussion and to me depends on the show/event. if i organise a big theatre show, i try to pay everyone, the businessmodel should allow for that or no show...

if it's a mere hafla with an audience of 50-100 people no more, than even if there is a big name dancer, sometimes yes, that big name will be the only one that gets paid (and sometimes they are gracefull enough to ask very little, or even waive their fee). otherwise, there simply would be NO hafla and most of the dancers know this. but let's open a different thread for this.

i do agree that especially when you are not paying the dancers, you need to make sure they get fed, get drinks and that the publicity is REAL publicity. i always try to take care of my guests/artists, whether they are being paid or not.

i also offer trades (i'll come and dance in your show for free, workshop entrance with big name for free etc)

thinking more about this, i find this really hard. i agree, the dancers should get paid, and we really really try. i know people that even make their students that are IN the show pay for their entrance tickets! while they will be backstage the whole show. that's really awfull. but it is simply not possible to pay 10 dancers a 100E, unless it's a really BIG show. otherwise the ticket price would become sky high.

Artemisia


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemarie
Actually,
I've just been in the situation where I was very recently asked to dance in a show where the guest of honor was a big name BDSS tribal dancer.

So, how much do they pay?......nothing,
How about travel costs?............no,
Refreshment tokens?.................no,
Drink/food in the change rooms?...no,
Well, what do I get then?...........publicity!

Did I mention the ticket price was (US) $ 27.50!!

What really infuriates me is
1. that this was organised by bellydancers WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER!!
2. dancers still accepted these conditions and danced for nada.

Maybe I should send the link of this film to the organisers.

Cheers Rosemarie

__________________

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

thinking more about this, i find this really hard. i agree, the dancers should get paid, and we really really try. i know people that even make their students that are IN the show pay for their entrance tickets! while they will be backstage the whole show. that's really awfull. but it is simply not possible to pay 10 dancers a 100E, unless it's a really BIG show. otherwise the ticket price would become sky high.

If my students who are in the show didn't pay I would have no hafla. They make up most of the audience, and they come to watch each other dance. There just isn't enough interest amongst the GP to sell enough tickets to subsidise them. I don't make them stay backstage and miss the whole show though, that wouldn't be fair at all. "Pay to perform" is pretty much standard practice when you're a student round here.

ah, that's a hafla! i meant a big stage show with my troupe! i dont feel they should pay then, i even give them a free ticket each for family/friends

see it all depends on whether it's more like "community event", or something where you expect to make money. if it's the latter, i dont think the people dancing should dance for free, and i dont think the students should pay. is it a dancers event or a GP event, etc. lot's of factors.

hmm i can understand the desire to get paid anytime we put a bedleh on but at the same time those haflas really truly can't afford to pay every dancer. I view those events as more of a networking thing. I can see the up-and-coming dancers in the area, everyone else gets to see me. If someone likes my dancing and needs someone to sub maybe they'd consider me. If I hadn't come they might not even know about me.

If a dancer doesn't want to do it because she's not getting paid than she doesn't need to participate - that's totally fine and even understandable to me (could be giving up an actual paid gig).

If asked to dance in a show that is part of a workshop weekend, I appreciate receiving a discount (such as half price) on the workshop itself if I'm not being paid to dance in the show (plus getting a show ticket free).

Earlier this year I produced a professional, casual-but-theatrical-style show to compliment my dance festival, and I paid the performers. It was more of an honoraium in amount, since I couldn't afford to pay them all a minimum of $200 to dance for less than 10 minutes each, but it never occurred to me that I should expect these high-end folks to dance for free! But, apparently, many of them have done b-i-g shows gratis! I was shocked!

I was also very pleased to pay them!

Deborah

There is a haflah organizer here who has paid professionals around a 25% discounted private party rate to participate in a (more or less) monthly show. The show is principally advertised to dancers.

I'm with you, Safiyah: it should be understood that a dancer might not be able to participate in a haflah for financial reasons.

The dancer should pay for workshop, for snacks and water,for ticket, for dvd and for pictures.

that seems to be the rule around here.
and I totally disagree with this.

One show organizer invited me recently for a theater show, she agreed to cover my bus ticket cause i was going just for the show .we exchanged the performance , she danced at my show and I dance at hers for free. Then her partner was appaled I asked for them to cover a one-way bus ticket ( i shared a ride with another dancer on the way back) everyone else did it for free, well I said not me sorry i can dance for free but wont pay 50$ ticket to come and dance ( publicity in this case was nil) .


For haflas and very small venue it is not the same situation, i did a small show recently, 60 people, 30 of them got a free ticket cause it was included with the workshop. even tought cost of the room retal and star dancer were higher than what i got from selling 30 tickets , i was still able to give a dvd and buy them water .

I dont get why when i perform at a sold-out show wit 350 people , why i have to pay 30$ for a dvd and 10$ for each picture : (

Originally Posted by Emma

If my students who are in the show didn't pay I would have no hafla. They make up most of the audience, and they come to watch each other dance. There just isn't enough interest amongst the GP to sell enough tickets to subsidise them. I don't make them stay backstage and miss the whole show though, that wouldn't be fair at all. "Pay to perform" is pretty much standard practice when you're a student round here.

This is exactly how it is in my neck of the woods.

A typical hafla ticket costs only $10-15 and includes a buffet, so it's a great deal IMO. And the vast majority of performers are students, not pros. A few pros participate, but they do it because it's fun and to thank the organizer for providing a place for their students to perform!

We do not pay to perform. Usually our show ticket is gratis, and a couple organizers give a discount on a workshop if it's in conjunction with the show. TBH I probably wouldn't pay to perform; it could just be that I'm not used to that policy though. We don't really do the small student hafla things around here anyways so it's usually an event on a stage with 50+ audience members

Oh, for the record, we don't pay for tickets to workshop shows where we perform, just haflas.

We just don't have professional shows for the GP around here. The only one we used to have was a charity fundraiser, so everyone donated their performances.

I'm having my studio for almost a year now.
In this year we have produced 4 BIG shows.
Mostly my students danced (from the professional class) some group choreo's from the advanced, and 3 times invited teachers that was teaching a workshop in my studio.
All the invited teachers did it for free.
For my students, as I believe they got to be payed in a way, I gave them for free at least 4 hours privite lessons to each of them (thats why i'm excausted lol) as I could not pay them the night's of the show.
It was like a trade and a deal with them.
But they had free drinks and food at the night of the show's, they saw the show (not paying ticket ofcourse), and they got very good publicity as they performed choreo's that cant do at restaurants or clubs and they got booked from people that saw them at the theatre for weddings or big parties, so this was also a big advantage for them.
Same time in the year, i was invited to dance to another teachers Hafla, something that I dont usual do, and when was there she told me that had to pay the ticket. If I wasnt professional and many of MY students had been there payed tickets etc to see me, I would had left... anyway... it leaves a bitter sense in mouth.
So 2 months after when same teacher asked me to dance at her hafla, said that was already booked, sorry.

As Lauren said, dancers do have to pay to dance at haflas here. This is a timely thread for me because I sent out an e-mail this morning about my upcoming hafla. I realize that if no one came to dance there wouldn't be a show so it might not seem fair, but I need them to pay at the door to cover the venue. I decided to give them a free copy of the show (assuming I can get a video to work, but that's another beast) as a thank you, plus there's a buffet. This is only my second hafla and the first time for the free video.

Originally Posted by Safiyah

hmm i can understand the desire to get paid anytime we put a bedleh on but at the same time those haflas really truly can't afford to pay every dancer.

It's been my experience with my Boston gothic show Raks Spooki that if I split the show net (i.e. the money made after hall rental, equipment rental, etc.) among the dancers, they'd make about $5-$15 each. Typically there's about 18 acts, some of which are troupes with several dancers, so there may be upwards of 30 individuals who I wish I could pay a real wage. Heck, I wish I could pay *me* a real wage for all the organizing. But I think my ticket price point can't really go any higher, so there's no way to bring in more money. Added to which this is a community-based event, really a hafli for dancers and interested goths. What I've been doing is taking the net profit and making a donation to a charity in the name of the gothic belly dancers of New England. Last year it was Women For Women, the year before that it was Bat Conservation International. Everybody seems happy with this arrangement, so unless/until I grow this thing bigger, that's what I'll continue to do.

In terms of photos, DVDs and so forth, I'm fortunate in that the gothic community provides its share of volunteers in a variety of areas so I'm able to negotiate these things pretty much at cost for the dancers.

Fodder for conversation, and playing Devil's advocate:

For those who have said no one but dancers will come to their shows (not student recital, but *shows*)-- what exactly have you tried in term of producing and promoting a show to the general public? How creative have you gotten? What qualities does your show have that should attract the general public? Where/how can you tap into various "subcultures" that might represent potential attendees for your show? Are you trying any new things or just doing things the way your teacher/mentor did things?

I know each town and community is different, but here we have put what I have to admit seems like minimal effort into advertising and promoting our show, and we get 200+ people to come to a workshop show with a guest performer, and generally get 80+ people to come to a student recital (not counting the performers). We have packed a couple of smaller venues we've used this year, and turned people away at the door. We do seem to be cultivating a repeat fan base of people that come to our shows regularly that are not family or close friends of any of the dancers.

What are we doing? I'm not exactly sure. Maybe its just random luck, but here are some things we're doing
Taking advantage of ties to a university.
Cultivating relations with local businesses and community groups and clubs.
Taking advantage of small-town environment -- there's not much else to do here! That can be an advantage if you can locate and tap into the people who *want* cultural activities.
Producing strong shows that are anchored with mostly pro-level dancing.
Selecting the dancers we want to perform in our shows. (works both ways though, because not that many people want to drive out here).
Cracking the whip on our students that want to perform -- it is a priviledge, not a right (for all of us).
Keeping shows under 2 hours.
Working with a tech crew that makes us look beautiful on stage.
In general, catering to our audience, not the dancers.

My lofty goal is to sell out our auditorium that seats 380 this November when we host Artemis, and if we could indeed do that, we could pay every dancer.

Referring back to my original post (see 1st post by Artie);
in the situation I described, the tickets were $27.50, the venue was not expensive (not a theatre) and there were MANY paying visitors.....and yet the organisers couldn't spring for a bottle of water in the changing rooms or ONE refreshment token.

In the haflas I've organised, I always made it a priority to pay the professional dancers I've asked to perform a reasonable fee. That's just simple respect and courtesy....

Silly me, I should have just pocketed the money myself….that seems to be the norm here now-a-days!!

cheers
Rosemarie

Sedonia, in your case I suspect being attached to the University helps. People who live in a college town will watch for what's coming up on campus if they're interested in arts, and will attend all sorts of lectures, plays, art shows and such that they wouldn't venture into the community for.

I've been holding my shows at a community college, and if I were even the LEAST little bit attached to the college, i know I'd fill that theater every time. But since I'm only renting the place, I'm not listed in any of the College Activities materials, can't even post on the bulletin board. It stinks!

My student show has sold out, because of family/friends of the students -- and mostly the beginners! If you've been dancing a while you know your family/friends aren't turning out for every show any more.

My most recent workshop show was my first attempt to sell tickets without having beginner students in the show, and...well, I won't be doing that again!

Lauren, do any of your students go to Southeastern? If so, they could form a student club and cosponsor events on campus with all the fringe benefits. That is how we do it. Actually at times we have had to pull various strings to keep the student organization going on paper even if there is not any active student membership, so that we can function as an RSO and as a private sector dance company.

or, Can you cultivate a collaborative relationship with any dance instructors, musicians, or other performing artists there? If so, you could co-host shows and share the stage with them in order to get on the inside the college. You might have to be creative (Lotus Arts and SEIU's student jazz ensemble presents a night of belly dancing and Count Basie).

Just some random goofy ideas.

Most times I'm happy to dance in a show that accompanies a weekend workshop I happen to be attending at no cost because I feel it is more of a colleague helping colleague thing than dancing for a client for free. Many of these shows would not happen if we didn't support one another in this way and it's fun to dance for one another. If dancing for free in this case bothers you, then you simply say no... seems totally sensible to say no to me! It's a personal decision.

If someone wants me to come dance in a workshop show I was not planning to attend, then yes - I would expect some renumeration.

I think the big thing for me is being treated as a respected artist. I have a family at home, and would sooner spend my free time at home with them than running around dancing for free. Life's just too busy. The time I put into preparing for a performance is worth something.

Elise - you were a gracious host and I really enjoyed dancing at the Sahra show. Thank you for a great weekend and I hope to see you again soon!

Originally Posted by Rosemarie

Referring back to my original post (see 1st post by Artie);
in the situation I described, the tickets were $27.50, the venue was not expensive (not a theatre) and there were MANY paying visitors.....and yet the organisers couldn't spring for a bottle of water in the changing rooms or ONE refreshment token.

In this particular situation I certainly agree that the dancers should have been paid.

hey

i understand that you feel that they made money and hence should have paid you. i agree that that should be the system, but just having organised a few workshop weekends with a few big names myself: the costs are huge and we hardly broke even. what the show/hafla and the workshops make has to cover.

- instructors fee for teaching
- studio rental
- their fee for performing
- their hotel (4/5 nights often)
- their flight
- the music license
- food and drink for the instructor during their entire stay (that's mostly in the contracts too).
- transport costs (taxis)
- publicity costs
- telephone costs (mine are sky high from last weekend)

really the theatre cost for us often is the very least of our worries.

and;: the price of the ticket does not tell you whether or not the organisers are making any money.

i dont mind NOT making any money but if i dont at least break even, we are not going to organise this a lot. if it makes money i'd gladly pay the performers. but i doubt we'll ever be able to pay more than ca 100E per dancere.
so far we once made money (and paid all the dancers), lost quite a lot of money (and did not pay the dancers), broke even (and had to cancel the show and hence not pay the dancers). this is just the events with instructors from abroad. for local hafma's just for my students the system here is pretty much what everyone here from the US has described.

i dont know what event you are talking about though i can guess i guess, but i would just not simply assume that money was made on your back. i agree, if that"s the case, that would be bad.

and i agree, i would at the very least want to reimburse travel expenses AND make sure the dancers feel taken care of (food, water, drink after the show, etc).

Originally Posted by Rosemarie

Referring back to my original post (see 1st post by Artie);
in the situation I described, the tickets were $27.50, the venue was not expensive (not a theatre) and there were MANY paying visitors.....and yet the organisers couldn't spring for a bottle of water in the changing rooms or ONE refreshment token.

In the haflas I've organised, I always made it a priority to pay the professional dancers I've asked to perform a reasonable fee. That's just simple respect and courtesy....

Silly me, I should have just pocketed the money myself….that seems to be the norm here now-a-days!!

cheers
Rosemarie

Running through here, but just wanted to post for those who may not have organized events that the show I put on last weekend landed $60 in my pocket when all was said and done.

Not that I'm complaining because that wasn't why I did it, but there's not as much money flying around as you would imagine.

Hallo Artie,

Yes, I understand all these extra costs...."been there done that".

I don't see the need to go into further detail about my specific example. Suffice to say that lack of funds was not an issue. I would not have even asked for my full performance fee. But to ask professional dancers to perform then give ABSOLUTELY nothing is just not acceptable. Period.

You yourself posted the video regarding "Paying the Artist" and I'm assuming that you agree with his message....and yet you now seem to present arguments along the line of "yes but.....". That's ironic.

Cheers Rosemarie

I don't think it matters if organizers are making money off of peoples' backs or not; the artist still needs to be paid. The same goes for other venues, as well.

for me the been there done that is very new. just a few months old in fact. and the financial risks we have been taking lately are new for me as well. and we only do it cause we want to bring in great instructors. we can only do this if the "community" supports us.

anyway, i think it all depends on a lot of factors (is it making money?, what's the venue, what's my relationship with the organisers, and how are they treating me, who is the audience, etc etc etc). the organisers being paid, and the artists NOT (like in Harlans video with warner brothers as example basically), i agree 100%, that is wrong.

i'm not making an argument for NOT paying the dancers, i'm just saying that when sponsoring workshop shows, paying everyone (including yourself) just is not always an option. then you need to decide if that means NOT having a show, or asking people to dance for free.

if felt so bad when we realised we werent going to be able to pay the performers the way we wanted to, for an event we recently sponsored. it's been a hard week.

hm thinking about this more: it's not because i think the artist SHOULD get paid, that i mean an artist can not do something for free sometimes....

it's like deciding to do charity, you can also decide to do community events. whter that community is your neigboorhood, or the bellydance world.

i do think we all do way to many unpaid gigs for so called exposure.

and i dont like it when big shows dont pay me. have done way too many of those myself too.

on the other hand, sometimes i'd rather dance for free than for peanuts.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

hey

i understand that you feel that they made money and hence should have paid you. i agree that that should be the system, but just having organised a few workshop weekends with a few big names myself: the costs are huge and we hardly broke even. what the show/hafla and the workshops make has to cover.

- instructors fee for teaching
- studio rental
- their fee for performing
- their hotel (4/5 nights often)
- their flight
- the music license
- food and drink for the instructor during their entire stay (that's mostly in the contracts too).
- transport costs (taxis)
- publicity costs
- telephone costs (mine are sky high from last weekend)

really the theatre cost for us often is the very least of our worries.

Thanks for posting this list. It seems a lot of people simply don't realize what goes into hosting some of these events. There are some out of town dancers who are rather expensive in both their fees and their tastes. Transportations costs are going sky high as well.
No matter our feelings on pay- it's naive to not take reality into consideration.
Some of these events are simply "by dancers for dancers". One certainly CAN insist on charging ones peers and colleagues, and I suppose then expect the same treatment in return.
That is not what I choose to do. Many of these people who bring artists in do so at their own financial risk. They sacrifice A LOT of time and energy into this- AND they are bringing in some wonderful educational opportunities for the whole dance community. To me, that is worth supporting.

Around here it's the same artists performing for free at each other's events. I suppose we could circulate a $50 bill among us or something, but it would just be confusing and lead to arguments. ..l;,

Maybe our relationship around here is different than some communities, but most of us are friends (on one level or another), have taken workshops together, etc. I think of it like a bunch of lawyers who all went to law school together having a house party and talking shop -- only we speak in dance. They don't send each other a bill afterward, and neither do we.

But, again, we simply don't have big, profitable, 'for-the-public' shows.

If as a dancer I find that I am not getting from the "dancing experience" what I should be whether it be of a monetary nature, i.e; "fair remuneration" or otherwise then, eventually, I'm going to leave that situation and try to create a new one. How have I done this to date? I contacted the right people and got my own gigs by selling what I had to offer. Not only do I reap the fruits of my labor but also there's an "artistic freedom of expression" that is, provided it appeals to my audience not to mention the bolster of self-confidence that came from doing my own thing! It took balls for me to perform alone and also as part of a "duo" with someone of similar intention and up to forty-five minutes a gig, sometimes 2 gigs a day not to mention the time we performed 3 out-of-town shows in one day: 2 back-to-back with only 30 minutes inbetween. The last show was a few hours later. I made it fine through the first two, then it was "mind over matter" for the last one. My mind kept reverberating, "I can't do it, I'm not a spring chicken anymore, but, my God, I have to do it somehow!" Then there I was doin' it, ya, I'll never forget that day! While I might not get the so-called "golden gigs or galas" as would a group of dancers or entertainers, (who knows really) at the end of the day, I am investing in myself and not in someone else's dream or pocketbook, which has become detestable to me.

I was never a "follower" so the troupe aspect of dancing doesn't appeal to me; even though, I once tried it and gave it my all. However, I carry with me a "deep appreciation of the knowledge" that evolved from that experience and for the people who made that possible for me. Where I am at now seems so far from where I once was. That's because I'm choreographing my own routines; choosing music, costumes, props; enjoying whatever successes have been bestowed upon me and dealing constructively with those performances I feel are less-than's - you know the ones you feel could have been better somehow. It is paramount for me to strive to do better, to practice harder in order to add the right blend of variety needed to captivate the audience at least for several crucial points in the show. I wish I could reach the point where it comes so easily that it is almost effortless. It's a colossel challenge, yet at the same time it feels liberating and S-W-E-E-T! If that "duo" should turn into a "solo" act for whatever reason; I'll have to move forward. I need not get too comfortable where I am at but rather envision possibilities as tho' I had 360 vision as grasshoppers do. The world spins fast; anything can change. My new motto is "do not doubt, just do." If only through sheer will and anything else I can conjure up, as long as it's of a positive nature, "do not doubt, just get it done!" Not always an easy concept, but a worthwhile endeavour I think. Hope my response hasn't been too "philosophical" in nature.